jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Sn!pe wrote:
> >>
> >> > Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> >> >> > Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
> >> >> >> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> [...]
> >> >> >>>> [sig]
> >> >> >>>> Bertel
> >> >> >>>> Kolt, Denmark
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be
> >> frigid.
> >> >> > Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
> >> >>
> >> >> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.
> >>
> >> > I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
> >> > bloomin' cold. It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't have
> >> > the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
> >> > UK is blessed with.
> >>
> >> Oh, come on. Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
> >> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
> >> monkeys start to notice. I went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana,
> >> Illinois, where the average January low (1981-2010) is 16.7 F (-8.5 C).
>
> > Indeed. Those Copenhagians count themselves lucky
> > when they can skate on real natural ice in their parks.
> > (rather than an ice rink)
>
> >> https://www.isws.illinois.edu/statecli/cuweather/cu-averages.htm
> >>
> >> That counts as a cold winter, though it's not like Minnesota.
>
> > Don't use such strange terms, like 'fall frost'.
>
> >> > If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
> >> > we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
> >> > ice storms and the like:
> >>
> >> > <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
> >>
> >> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
> >> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
> >> phenomenon
> >> of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?
>
> > Freezing rain is not unknown, but 1/4" of it is extremely rare.
> > OTOH just one mm of it will bring trafic to a standstil,
>
> A quarter inch is rare here too. And I don't think it's unreasonable
> for a mere mm to stop traffic.

No doubt. Nevertheless, the idea of singling out Copenhagen
as excessively cold sounds strange to this West-European.
It still has an Atlantic climate.
To get really cold I would think about Moskow, or Stockholm,

Jan

On 2024-05-07 08:41:45 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>
>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>>>>>>> Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
>>>>>>>> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>> [sig]
>>>>>>>>>> Bertel
>>>>>>>>>> Kolt, Denmark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be
>>>> frigid.
>>>>>>> Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.
>>>>
>>>>> I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
>>>>> bloomin' cold. It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't have
>>>>> the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
>>>>> UK is blessed with.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, come on. Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
>>>> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
>>>> monkeys start to notice. I went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana,
>>>> Illinois, where the average January low (1981-2010) is 16.7 F (-8.5 C).
>>
>>> Indeed. Those Copenhagians count themselves lucky
>>> when they can skate on real natural ice in their parks.
>>> (rather than an ice rink)
>>
>>>> https://www.isws.illinois.edu/statecli/cuweather/cu-averages.htm
>>>>
>>>> That counts as a cold winter, though it's not like Minnesota.
>>
>>> Don't use such strange terms, like 'fall frost'.
>>
>>>>> If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
>>>>> we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
>>>>> ice storms and the like:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
>>>>
>>>> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
>>>> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
>>>> phenomenon
>>>> of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?
>>
>>> Freezing rain is not unknown, but 1/4" of it is extremely rare.
>>> OTOH just one mm of it will bring trafic to a standstil,
>>
>> A quarter inch is rare here too. And I don't think it's unreasonable
>> for a mere mm to stop traffic.
>
> No doubt. Nevertheless, the idea of singling out Copenhagen
> as excessively cold sounds strange to this West-European.
> It still has an Atlantic climate.
> To get really cold I would think about Moskow, or Stockholm,

When I was in Guelph someone made a remark about cold it was. The
person he was talking to said "I guess you've never been to Winnipeg in
the winter".

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

In article
<e09509042057e1df8f17732a064c36cd@www.novabbs.com>,
jerry.friedman99@gmail.com says...
> Subject: Re: beep at the checkstand
> From: jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
>
> Sn!pe wrote:
>
> > jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > [quoted text muted]
> >>
> >> Oh, come on. Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
> >> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
> >> monkeys start to notice.
> >>
>
> > I have been there myself when it was -15C. My Danish father in law
> > told me that when it reaches -20C it is illegal to go outside without an
> > excellent reason because of the unnecessary strain it puts on rescue
> > services. That was in the mid-'70s.
>
> I agree that that's cold. Wind straight from Karelia?
>
> -15 C was nothing surprising when I was a kid in Cleveland or when I
> was in grad school in C-U, and -23 C (-10 F) happened often enough
> in C-U that I learned to recognize the way it felt. But I find it
> interesting that the record low in Denmark proper (-31.2 C) is only
> slightly warmer than the record in Champaign (-31.7 C). Of course,
> Denmark is rather bigger than the Champaign airport, which is
> probably where the temperatures are recorded.
>
> > [quoted text muted]
> >> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
> >> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
> >> phenomenon
> >> of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?
> >>
>
> > Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
> > North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.
>
> Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
> when the temperature is slightly below freezing. Doesn't that, or didn't
> that, occur a lot in England in winter? The other requirement is rain,
> which I understand you're not short of.

Temps below freezing are common in North Britain. So is
rain. But rain comes from the Atlantic, warmed by the
Gulf Stream, so if the wind is from the west the worst
we'll get is snow, or hail (brief). High wind and heavy
rain /heavy snow almost always come from the West
(atlantic)... but they are not exceptionally cold.

Whenever we get REALLY cold weather it's usually from the
opposite direction, continental Europe ( reported in UK
news as "Beast from the East) and therefore drier.

Janet

On 2024-05-07 12:12:55 +0000, Janet said:

> [ … ]
>
> Temps below freezing are common in North Britain. So is
> rain. But rain comes from the Atlantic, warmed by the
> Gulf Stream, so if the wind is from the west the worst
> we'll get is snow, or hail (brief). High wind and heavy
> rain /heavy snow almost always come from the West
> (atlantic)... but they are not exceptionally cold.
>
> Whenever we get REALLY cold weather it's usually from the
> opposite direction, continental Europe ( reported in UK
> news as "Beast from the East) and therefore drier.

When I was in Guelph the coldest place in southern Ontario was
International Falls, nearly every day. The name alone lets the cat out
of the bag: the cold air was coming from the USA to Canada, not vice
versa.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Janet wrote:

> In article
> <e09509042057e1df8f17732a064c36cd@www.novabbs.com>,
> jerry.friedman99@gmail.com says...
>> Subject: Re: beep at the checkstand
>> From: jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com>
>> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
>>
>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>
>> > jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > [quoted text muted]
>> >>
>> >> Oh, come on. Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
>> >> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
>> >> monkeys start to notice.
>> >>
>>
>> > I have been there myself when it was -15C. My Danish father in law
>> > told me that when it reaches -20C it is illegal to go outside without an
>> > excellent reason because of the unnecessary strain it puts on rescue
>> > services. That was in the mid-'70s.
>>
>> I agree that that's cold. Wind straight from Karelia?
>>
>> -15 C was nothing surprising when I was a kid in Cleveland or when I
>> was in grad school in C-U, and -23 C (-10 F) happened often enough
>> in C-U that I learned to recognize the way it felt. But I find it
>> interesting that the record low in Denmark proper (-31.2 C) is only
>> slightly warmer than the record in Champaign (-31.7 C). Of course,
>> Denmark is rather bigger than the Champaign airport, which is
>> probably where the temperatures are recorded.
>>
>> > [quoted text muted]
>> >> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
>> >> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
>> >> phenomenon
>> >> of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?
>> >>
>>
>> > Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
>> > North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.
>>
>> Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
>> when the temperature is slightly below freezing. Doesn't that, or didn't
>> that, occur a lot in England in winter? The other requirement is rain,
>> which I understand you're not short of.

> Temps below freezing are common in North Britain. So is
> rain. But rain comes from the Atlantic, warmed by the
> Gulf Stream, so if the wind is from the west the worst
> we'll get is snow, or hail (brief). High wind and heavy
> rain /heavy snow almost always come from the West
> (atlantic)... but they are not exceptionally cold.

> Whenever we get REALLY cold weather it's usually from the
> opposite direction, continental Europe ( reported in UK
> news as "Beast from the East) and therefore drier.

I'm not following. If you can get heavy rain and heavy snow
from the west, why can't you get heavy freezing rain from
there? And really cold weather isn't relevant, because it's
too cold for freezing rain.

Here in New Mexico, the forecasters refer to "back-door cold
fronts" rather than "the Beast from the East", but ours don't
bring colder weather than other cold fronts. Of course your
twitchers love those beastly winds from Siberia.

--
Jerry Friedman

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 6 May 2024 21:42:42 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
> >Sam Plusnet wrote:
> >
> >> After more than 70 years spent in various parts of the UK, I can say
> >> that the only time I really experienced freezing rain, forming a thick
> >> layer of ice was in North Germany (near Bremen). We couldn't get into
> >> the car since the thick layer of ice had sealed it shut. Traction on
> >> the road was sub-optimal as well.
> >
> >Some decades ago we had a sudden ice rain leaving about ? cm of ice.
> >Many people had to crawl home. I was lucky that I could walk home slowly
> >and carefully, but my bicycle slipped from me several times.
>
> The really, really slippery ice is what we call 'black ice' -- and
> it does not take much rain. What it takes is a cold road, and
> just enough water to make a surface that is practically
> frictionless. The rain hits the road and barely freezes, ready
> to hit ultimate slickness when pressure is applied by a tire or
> a shoe.
>
> The exact conditions are relatively rare in the US, I'm pretty sure.
> They don't happen often enough to have a standard warning
> available, to distinguish from the ordinary "slippery and unsafe"
> which is a lot safer.
>
> Black ice is what produces the occasional videos of cars or
> trucks sliding sideways on roads that look pretty level.

The condition is not unusual in Western Europe.
(a few time a year perhaps, depending on where you are)
It happens when the weather changes after a prolonged cold period.

There is still a lot of cold in the ground,
and a warm front coming in with lots of rain,
which freezes on the ground.

Jan

jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> Janet wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <e09509042057e1df8f17732a064c36cd@www.novabbs.com>,
> > jerry.friedman99@gmail.com says...
> >> Subject: Re: beep at the checkstand
> >> From: jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com>
> >> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
> >>
> >> Sn!pe wrote:
> >>
> >> > jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > [quoted text muted]
> >> >>
> >> >> Oh, come on. Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
> >> >> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
> >> >> monkeys start to notice.
> >> >>
> >>
> >> > I have been there myself when it was -15C. My Danish father in law
> >> > told me that when it reaches -20C it is illegal to go outside without an
> >> > excellent reason because of the unnecessary strain it puts on rescue
> >> > services. That was in the mid-'70s.
> >>
> >> I agree that that's cold. Wind straight from Karelia?
> >>
> >> -15 C was nothing surprising when I was a kid in Cleveland or when I
> >> was in grad school in C-U, and -23 C (-10 F) happened often enough
> >> in C-U that I learned to recognize the way it felt. But I find it
> >> interesting that the record low in Denmark proper (-31.2 C) is only
> >> slightly warmer than the record in Champaign (-31.7 C). Of course,
> >> Denmark is rather bigger than the Champaign airport, which is
> >> probably where the temperatures are recorded.
> >>
> >> > [quoted text muted]
> >> >> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
> >> >> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
> >> >> phenomenon
> >> >> of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?
> >> >>
> >>
> >> > Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
> >> > North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.
> >>
> >> Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
> >> when the temperature is slightly below freezing. Doesn't that, or didn't
> >> that, occur a lot in England in winter? The other requirement is rain,
> >> which I understand you're not short of.
>
> > Temps below freezing are common in North Britain. So is
> > rain. But rain comes from the Atlantic, warmed by the
> > Gulf Stream, so if the wind is from the west the worst
> > we'll get is snow, or hail (brief). High wind and heavy
> > rain /heavy snow almost always come from the West
> > (atlantic)... but they are not exceptionally cold.
>
> > Whenever we get REALLY cold weather it's usually from the
> > opposite direction, continental Europe ( reported in UK
> > news as "Beast from the East) and therefore drier.
>
> I'm not following. If you can get heavy rain and heavy snow
> from the west, why can't you get heavy freezing rain from
> there? And really cold weather isn't relevant, because it's
> too cold for freezing rain.
>
> Here in New Mexico, the forecasters refer to "back-door cold
> fronts" rather than "the Beast from the East", but ours don't
> bring colder weather than other cold fronts. Of course your
> twitchers love those beastly winds from Siberia.

The cold comes in when there is what meteorologists call:
"An Omega Block, or Blockade"
This is caused by a persistent high over Scandinavia and Western Russia.
This blocks the normal westerly circulation,
which now has to go far to the North around it.
Hence the "Omega" name, from the shape of the letter.
The dominant wind is now North-Easterly,
and it brings in real cold from Siberia.

When the blockade finally breaks the Westerly circulation
reestablishes itself, with lots of rain
on the still thoroughly cold ground.
Despite red alerts going out there will always be lots of fools
who manage to crash their cars. (and perhaps kill themselves) [1]

Jan

[1] The same situation in summer will cause heat waves
in Western Europe, and possibly torrential rains in Greece and Turkey.
Of course the USA has its Omega block(ades) too.

and

In article <452dfadcec2533bfa6b81478b04daa66
@www.novabbs.com>, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com says...
> >>
> >> > Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
> >> > North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.
> >>
> >> Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
> >> when the temperature is slightly below freezing. Doesn't that, or didn't
> >> that, occur a lot in England in winter? The other requirement is rain,
> >> which I understand you're not short of.
>
> > Temps below freezing are common in North Britain. So is
> > rain. But rain comes from the Atlantic, warmed by the
> > Gulf Stream, so if the wind is from the west the worst
> > we'll get is snow, or hail (brief). High wind and heavy
> > rain /heavy snow almost always come from the West
> > (atlantic)... but they are not exceptionally cold.
>
> > Whenever we get REALLY cold weather it's usually from the
> > opposite direction, continental Europe ( reported in UK
> > news as "Beast from the East) and therefore drier.
>
> I'm not following. If you can get heavy rain and heavy snow
> from the west, why can't you get heavy freezing rain from
> there?

Because of the warming effect of the Gulf Stream on
the west of Britain. The whole West coast has the highest
rainfall, highest wind speeds, and the warmest winter
temperatures. All thanks to the Atlantic and the GS.

The East coast is far drier, less windy, and colder in
winter.

Janet

On 07-May-24 17:05, jerryfriedman wrote:
> Janet wrote:
>
>> In article <e09509042057e1df8f17732a064c36cd@www.novabbs.com>,
>> jerry.friedman99@gmail.com says...
>>> Subject: Re: beep at the checkstand
>>> From: jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com>
>>> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
>>>
>>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>>
>>> > jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > [quoted text muted]
>>> >> >> Oh, come on.  Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
>>> >> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
>>> >> monkeys start to notice. >>
>>>
>>> > I have been there myself when it was -15C.  My Danish father in law
>>> > told me that when it reaches -20C it is illegal to go outside
>>> without an
>>> > excellent reason because of the unnecessary strain it puts on rescue
>>> > services.  That was in the mid-'70s.
>>>
>>> I agree that that's cold.  Wind straight from Karelia?
>>>
>>> -15 C was nothing surprising when I was a kid in Cleveland or when I
>>> was in grad school in C-U, and -23 C (-10 F) happened often enough
>>> in C-U that I learned to recognize the way it felt.  But I find it
>>> interesting that the record low in Denmark proper (-31.2 C) is only
>>> slightly warmer than the record in Champaign (-31.7 C).  Of course,
>>> Denmark is rather bigger than the Champaign airport, which is
>>> probably where the temperatures are recorded.
>>>
>>> > [quoted text muted]
>>> >> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather
>>> Service
>>> >> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
>>> >> phenomenon
>>> >> of chilly weather.  Don't you have them in England too?
>>> >>
>>>
>>> > Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
>>> > North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.
>>>
>>> Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
>>> when the temperature is slightly below freezing.  Doesn't that, or
>>> didn't
>>> that, occur a lot in England in winter?  The other requirement is rain,
>>> which I understand you're not short of.
>
>>  Temps below freezing are common in North Britain. So is rain. But
>> rain comes  from the Atlantic, warmed by the Gulf Stream, so if the
>> wind is from the west the worst we'll get is  snow, or hail (brief).
>> High wind and heavy rain  /heavy snow almost always come from the West
>> (atlantic)... but they are not exceptionally cold.
>
>>  Whenever we get REALLY cold weather it's usually from the opposite
>> direction, continental Europe ( reported  in UK news as "Beast from
>> the East) and therefore drier.
>
> I'm not following.  If you can get heavy rain and heavy snow
> from the west, why can't you get heavy freezing rain from
> there?  And really cold weather isn't relevant, because it's
> too cold for freezing rain.
>
> Here in New Mexico, the forecasters refer to "back-door cold
> fronts" rather than "the Beast from the East", but ours don't
> bring colder weather than other cold fronts.  Of course your
> twitchers love those beastly winds from Siberia.
>
You need an extended period of sub-zero temperatures to get the ground
_really_ cold, and then rain falling on the frozen ground.
We do occasionally get those extended periods, but the required rain
doesn't seem to come at that time.
(Maybe it's because the wind direction needed for that long cold spell
doesn't bring us rain.)

--
Sam Plusnet

On 2024-05-07 02:52, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-05-07 08:41:45 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>
>>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>>>>>>>> Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
>>>>>>>>> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>> [sig]
>>>>>>>>>>> Bertel
>>>>>>>>>>> Kolt, Denmark
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be
>>>>> frigid.
>>>>>>>> Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
>>>>>> bloomin' cold.  It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and
>>>>>> doesn't have
>>>>>> the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> UK is blessed with.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, come on.  Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
>>>>> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
>>>>> monkeys start to notice.  I went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana,
>>>>> Illinois, where the average January low (1981-2010) is 16.7 F (-8.5
>>>>> C).
>>>
>>>> Indeed. Those Copenhagians count themselves lucky
>>>> when they can skate on real natural ice in their parks.
>>>> (rather than an ice rink)
>>>
>>>>> https://www.isws.illinois.edu/statecli/cuweather/cu-averages.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> That counts as a cold winter, though it's not like Minnesota.
>>>
>>>> Don't use such strange terms, like 'fall frost'.
>>>
>>>>>> If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold
>>>>>> too;
>>>>>> we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
>>>>>> ice storms and the like:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
>>>>> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
>>>>> phenomenon
>>>>> of chilly weather.  Don't you have them in England too?
>>>
>>>> Freezing rain is not unknown, but 1/4" of it is extremely rare.
>>>> OTOH just one mm of it will bring trafic to a standstil,
>>>
>>> A quarter inch is rare here too.  And I don't think it's unreasonable
>>> for a mere mm to stop traffic.
>>
>> No doubt. Nevertheless, the idea of singling out Copenhagen
>> as excessively cold sounds strange to this West-European.
>> It still has an Atlantic climate.
>> To get really cold I would think about Moskow, or Stockholm,
>
> When I was in Guelph someone made a remark about cold it was. The person
> he was talking to said "I guess you've never been to Winnipeg in the
> winter".

We in Saskatchewan, where it gets down to -25 quite regularly in winter,
with quite a few dips to -30, and a few spells of -35, coupled with a
wind that makes those temperatures quite dangerous (frostbite on exposed
skin with a 2-3 minute exposure, consider it cold, but not at all
comparable to Winnipeg.

The reason is that Winnipeg is every bit as cold as Saskatchewan in
winter, with similar temperatures and winds, but they built that city on
a flood plain, and the humidity is always higher than what we get here.

Most people who have stood at the corner of Portage and Main in
Winnipeg, when the temperature is -35, and the wind is blowing 70 or 80
km/hr, would find it hard to believe that Antarctica could EVER be more
uncomfortable.

The Guelph area does,'t get too cold, but it certainly gets snowstorms.
I was with IBM in Kitchener, and while on-call, I got called out to the
University of Guelph to fix a 360/50. It was snowing lightly, and
probably was about -5C or so. I was at home in Preston.

My only car at the time was a Triumph TR-3. I headed out to Guelph
And had no problem getting there. Turned out I needed a paft, and called
the backup on-call guy, asking him to pick up the part from stock in
Kitchener.

When he arrived, he said it was snowing pretty heavily, and boy was he
right!.

I was driving pretty slowly, as it was very slippery, but I was going
into the wind, and soon my engine temperature was starting to climb. I
figured it was probably snow packed into the radiator, and since I was
about halfway home, I figured my only choice was to keep going.

By the time I got home, the engine temperature gauge was pinned, and the
steam had pretty much stopped. Turns out I had fried the engine, but I
think I made the right choice.

--
Whose idea was it to put an "S" in the word "lisp"?

J. J. Lodder wrote:

[glad we got to from a mere English usage question to the interesting
topic of the cause of freezing rain]

> The condition is not unusual in Western Europe.
> (a few time a year perhaps, depending on where you are)
> It happens when the weather changes after a prolonged cold period.

> There is still a lot of cold in the ground,
> and a warm front coming in with lots of rain,
> which freezes on the ground.

I think that's similar to but not the same as the causes of freezing
rain in the U.S. according to

<https://www.weather.gov/source/zhu/ZHU_Training_Page/winter_stuff/winter_wx/winter_wx.html>

It mentions only the air temperature, not the ground temperature.
Either the rain forms in a supercooled state, or much more likely,
it forms as snow, melts in a warm layer, and supercools in a lower
layer maybe at -1 C. Either way it freezes when it hits the ground
and stays frozen because the ground is at the same temperature as
the air.

The article associates one situation in particular with
"devastating freezing rain. There's a low with a warm front
extending to the east. Warm moist air from the south (that's
where the eastern U.S. gets a lot of its warm moist air from)
blows over the front, rising and cooling and creating rain,
which supercools as it falls through the cold air near the
ground at the front.

There are other situations, none of which I'd ever have guessed,
probably because I know hardly anything about meteorology.

--
Jerry Friedman

Sam Plusnet wrote:

> On 07-May-24 17:05, jerryfriedman wrote:
>> Janet wrote:
>>
>>> In article <e09509042057e1df8f17732a064c36cd@www.novabbs.com>,
>>> jerry.friedman99@gmail.com says...
>>>> Subject: Re: beep at the checkstand
>>>> From: jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com>
>>>> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
...

>>>> >> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather
>>>> Service
>>>> >> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
>>>> >> phenomenon
>>>> >> of chilly weather.  Don't you have them in England too?
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>> > Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
>>>> > North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.
>>>>
>>>> Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
>>>> when the temperature is slightly below freezing.  Doesn't that, or
>>>> didn't
>>>> that, occur a lot in England in winter?  The other requirement is rain,
>>>> which I understand you're not short of.
>>
>>>  Temps below freezing are common in North Britain. So is rain. But
>>> rain comes  from the Atlantic, warmed by the Gulf Stream, so if the
>>> wind is from the west the worst we'll get is  snow, or hail (brief).
>>> High wind and heavy rain  /heavy snow almost always come from the West
>>> (atlantic)... but they are not exceptionally cold.
>>
>>>  Whenever we get REALLY cold weather it's usually from the opposite
>>> direction, continental Europe ( reported  in UK news as "Beast from
>>> the East) and therefore drier.
>>
>> I'm not following.  If you can get heavy rain and heavy snow
>> from the west, why can't you get heavy freezing rain from
>> there?  And really cold weather isn't relevant, because it's
>> too cold for freezing rain.
>>
>> Here in New Mexico, the forecasters refer to "back-door cold
>> fronts" rather than "the Beast from the East", but ours don't
>> bring colder weather than other cold fronts.  Of course your
>> twitchers love those beastly winds from Siberia.
>>
> You need an extended period of sub-zero temperatures to get the ground
> _really_ cold, and then rain falling on the frozen ground.
> We do occasionally get those extended periods, but the required rain
> doesn't seem to come at that time.
> (Maybe it's because the wind direction needed for that long cold spell
> doesn't bring us rain.)

As I said to Jan, that's not what causes freezing rain in the U.S.,
according to our government.

Obaue: That page also explains sleet, which it defines as small ice
pellets, hard enough to bounce when they hit the ground. That agrees
with my American experience. Wikipedia says that in most
Commonwealth countries, sleet is instead falling rain mixed with
snow, as from partially melted snowflakes. True?

And why is weather.gov trying to popularize the jargon abbreviation
"Wx" for "weather"? Because it's just so cool? (I mean the
abbreviation.)

--
Jerry Friedman

Janet wrote:

> In article <452dfadcec2533bfa6b81478b04daa66
> @www.novabbs.com>, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com says...
>> >>
>> >> > Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
>> >> > North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.
>> >>
>> >> Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
>> >> when the temperature is slightly below freezing. Doesn't that, or didn't
>> >> that, occur a lot in England in winter? The other requirement is rain,
>> >> which I understand you're not short of.
>>
>> > Temps below freezing are common in North Britain. So is
>> > rain. But rain comes from the Atlantic, warmed by the
>> > Gulf Stream, so if the wind is from the west the worst
>> > we'll get is snow, or hail (brief). High wind and heavy
>> > rain /heavy snow almost always come from the West
>> > (atlantic)... but they are not exceptionally cold.
>>
>> > Whenever we get REALLY cold weather it's usually from the
>> > opposite direction, continental Europe ( reported in UK
>> > news as "Beast from the East) and therefore drier.
>>
>> I'm not following. If you can get heavy rain and heavy snow
>> from the west, why can't you get heavy freezing rain from
>> there?

> Because of the warming effect of the Gulf Stream on
> the west of Britain. The whole West coast has the highest
> rainfall, highest wind speeds, and the warmest winter
> temperatures. All thanks to the Atlantic and the GS.

OK, temperatures below freezing are common there, but not that
common--the average low in January and February in Glasgow is
about +2 C according to Google, so there isn't much time
with the just-below-freezing weather that's right for freezing
rain. In the Mid-Atlantic region of the U.S., the average
January low is below freezing, so there are a lot more
opportunities.

> The East coast is far drier, less windy, and colder in
> winter.

Also, according to the page I linked to, in the Atlantic
Coastal Lowlands of the U.S., cold air can get trapped by
the Appalachians (hardly higher than the mountains of Britain)
to the west, and then warm oceanic air can flow over it,
creating the conditions for freezing rain. I imagine the
Gulf Stream is involved. Maybe the same thing could happen
in Britain if the North Sea were a source of warm moist air,
which I gather it is not.

--
Jerry Friedman

Rich Ulrich:
> > The really, really slippery ice is what we call 'black ice'...

Bertel Lund Hansen:
> Yes, we call it "sort is" as well. Maybe ten days ago there was a
> serious incident on the motor road (?).

ObAUE: I guess you mean "motorway", variously known in Leftpondia as
an "expressway", "freeway", or other terms, many used inconsistently.

> I think that about ten cars were
> involved, and two people were seriously wounded...

ObAUE: I'd say "injured". I reserve "wounded" for people injured in
a deliberate attack.

> When driving with snow and ice on the road, I usually find a space and
> period where no other car is near, and then I break carefully to see how
> bad it is...

ObAUE: "Break" was correct in the 19th century.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "You don't SIT IN the traffic jam;
msb@vex.net | you ARE the traffic jam." -- Werner Icking

My text in this article is in the public domain.

"Janet":
> > Whenever we get REALLY cold weather it's usually from the
> > opposite direction, continental Europe ( reported in UK
> > news as "Beast from the East) and therefore drier.
Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> When I was in Guelph the coldest place in southern Ontario was
> International Falls, nearly every day.

No, it wasn't.

International Falls is on the US side of the border, in Minnesota.
No part of Southern Ontario borders Minnesota. The Northern Ontario
town across the border from International Falls is Fort Frances.
--
Mark Brader "How can we believe that?"
Toronto "Because this time it's true!"
msb@vex.net -- Lynn & Jay: YES, PRIME MINISTER

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Jerry Friedman:
> Obaue: That page also explains sleet, which it defines as small ice
> pellets, hard enough to bounce when they hit the ground. That agrees
> with my American experience. Wikipedia says that in most
> Commonwealth countries, sleet is instead falling rain mixed with
> snow, as from partially melted snowflakes. True?

Environment Canada never uses the term "sleet", on the grounds
that it's ambiguous. Following them, I describe the first case as
"ice pellets" and the second one was "mixed rain and snow".

(Ice pellets are just raindrops that froze before reaching the ground.
They are superficially similar to small hailstones, but hail is
formed by alternating upward and downward movement, typically within
a thunderstorm, causing additional layers of water to accrete on
the stone and then freeze. So they can get dangerously large.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "C and C++ are two different languages.
msb@vex.net That's UK policy..." -- Clive Feather

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Jan Lodder:
> > No doubt. Nevertheless, the idea of singling out Copenhagen
> > as excessively cold sounds strange to this West-European.
> > It still has an Atlantic climate.
> > To get really cold I would think about Moskow, or Stockholm,
Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> When I was in Guelph someone made a remark about cold it was. The
> person he was talking to said "I guess you've never been to Winnipeg in
> the winter".

After my parents moved with me from Edmonton to Guelph in 1964, my
reaction was "don't they have winter in this place?"
--
Mark Brader | "It can be amusing, even if painful, to watch the
Toronto | ethnocentrism of those who are convinced their
msb@vex.net | local standards are universal." -- Tom Chapin

jerryfriedman wrote on 5/7/2024 :
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> [glad we got to from a mere English usage question to the interesting
> topic of the cause of freezing rain]
>
>> The condition is not unusual in Western Europe.
>> (a few time a year perhaps, depending on where you are)
>> It happens when the weather changes after a prolonged cold period.
>
>> There is still a lot of cold in the ground,
>> and a warm front coming in with lots of rain,
>> which freezes on the ground.
>
> I think that's similar to but not the same as the causes of freezing
> rain in the U.S. according to
>
> <https://www.weather.gov/source/zhu/ZHU_Training_Page/winter_stuff/winter_wx/winter_wx.html>
>
> It mentions only the air temperature, not the ground temperature.
> Either the rain forms in a supercooled state, or much more likely,
> it forms as snow, melts in a warm layer, and supercools in a lower
> layer maybe at -1 C. Either way it freezes when it hits the ground
> and stays frozen because the ground is at the same temperature as
> the air.
>
> The article associates one situation in particular with "devastating freezing
> rain. There's a low with a warm front
> extending to the east. Warm moist air from the south (that's
> where the eastern U.S. gets a lot of its warm moist air from)
> blows over the front, rising and cooling and creating rain,
> which supercools as it falls through the cold air near the
> ground at the front.
>
> There are other situations, none of which I'd ever have guessed,
> probably because I know hardly anything about meteorology.

Black ice is not unkown in the Willamette Valley, where much of
Oregons's population proliferates. Less common on the coast because
they don't freeze as often, and less common to the east because they
don't get wet as often.

Going under an overpass can be an adventure. And on a trip in Utah, I
was aware that going over an overpass can be an adventure.

The Portland area usually gets its worst weather when there is a high
east of the Cascades, especially in eastern Washington (including the
Palouse) and a low on the west side. The storms get funneled down the
Columbia Gorge. Wintertime, this can be "silver thaw" time, and the
linemen start collecting overtime, and convoys of linemen come from
other states.

I think the above conditions can also make it nasty in Salem and
Eugene, but Cottage Grove and further south to Ashland just have
mountain weather.

/dps

--
You could try being nicer and politer
> instead, and see how that works out.
-- Katy Jennison

On 2024-05-08 02:15:07 +0000, jerryfriedman said:

> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> On 07-May-24 17:05, jerryfriedman wrote:
>>> Janet wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <e09509042057e1df8f17732a064c36cd@www.novabbs.com>,
>>>> jerry.friedman99@gmail.com says...
>>>>> Subject: Re: beep at the checkstand
>>>>> From: jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com>
>>>>> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
> ..
>
>>>>>>> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather
>>>>> Service
>>>>>>> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
>>>>>>> phenomenon
>>>>>>> of chilly weather.  Don't you have them in England too?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
>>>>>> North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
>>>>> when the temperature is slightly below freezing.  Doesn't that, or didn't
>>>>> that, occur a lot in England in winter?  The other requirement is rain,
>>>>> which I understand you're not short of.
>>>
>>>>  Temps below freezing are common in North Britain. So is rain. But
>>>> rain comes  from the Atlantic, warmed by the Gulf Stream, so if the
>>>> wind is from the west the worst we'll get is  snow, or hail (brief).
>>>> High wind and heavy rain  /heavy snow almost always come from the West
>>>> (atlantic)... but they are not exceptionally cold.
>>>
>>>>  Whenever we get REALLY cold weather it's usually from the opposite
>>>> direction, continental Europe ( reported  in UK news as "Beast from the
>>>> East) and therefore drier.
>>>
>>> I'm not following.  If you can get heavy rain and heavy snow
>>> from the west, why can't you get heavy freezing rain from
>>> there?  And really cold weather isn't relevant, because it's
>>> too cold for freezing rain.
>>>
>>> Here in New Mexico, the forecasters refer to "back-door cold
>>> fronts" rather than "the Beast from the East", but ours don't
>>> bring colder weather than other cold fronts.  Of course your
>>> twitchers love those beastly winds from Siberia.
>>>
>> You need an extended period of sub-zero temperatures to get the ground
>> _really_ cold, and then rain falling on the frozen ground.
>> We do occasionally get those extended periods, but the required rain
>> doesn't seem to come at that time.
>> (Maybe it's because the wind direction needed for that long cold spell
>> doesn't bring us rain.)
>
> As I said to Jan, that's not what causes freezing rain in the U.S.,
> according to our government.

Biden's fault, innit, not like it was in the glorious times of the
previous presidency.
>
> Obaue: That page also explains sleet, which it defines as small ice
> pellets, hard enough to bounce when they hit the ground. That agrees
> with my American experience. Wikipedia says that in most
> Commonwealth countries, sleet is instead falling rain mixed with
> snow, as from partially melted snowflakes. True?

Yes. To me sleet is very wet snow. "small ice pellets hard enough to
bounce when they hit the ground" constitute hail -- never a serious
problem in England, in my experience, to do much damage, but in France
it's enough story, when they are often the size of golf balls, or even
tennis balls. Grape vines don't like being battered by hail.
>
> And why is weather.gov trying to popularize the jargon abbreviation
> "Wx" for "weather"? Because it's just so cool? (I mean the
> abbreviation.)

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles (centre of the world
today) for 37 years; mainly in England until 1987.

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> Yes. To me sleet is very wet snow. "small ice pellets hard enough to
> bounce when they hit the ground" constitute hail -- never a serious
> problem in England, in my experience, to do much damage, but in France
> it's enough story, when they are often the size of golf balls, or even
> tennis balls. Grape vines don't like being battered by hail.

Ten years ago I would have said that it's no problem in Denmark either,
but within this decade we have had two occasions with seroius hail
though not in the area where I was. The second one was not too bad, but
the first one hit the car of a friend of mine so the roof and hood
looked like a scateboard ramp. I think the pellets were about the size
of a golf ball.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

> In article <452dfadcec2533bfa6b81478b04daa66
> @www.novabbs.com>, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com says...
> > >>
> > >> > Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
> > >> > North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.
> > >>
> > >> Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
> > >> when the temperature is slightly below freezing. Doesn't that, or didn't
> > >> that, occur a lot in England in winter? The other requirement is rain,
> > >> which I understand you're not short of.
> >
> > > Temps below freezing are common in North Britain. So is
> > > rain. But rain comes from the Atlantic, warmed by the
> > > Gulf Stream, so if the wind is from the west the worst
> > > we'll get is snow, or hail (brief). High wind and heavy
> > > rain /heavy snow almost always come from the West
> > > (atlantic)... but they are not exceptionally cold.
> >
> > > Whenever we get REALLY cold weather it's usually from the
> > > opposite direction, continental Europe ( reported in UK
> > > news as "Beast from the East) and therefore drier.
> >
> > I'm not following. If you can get heavy rain and heavy snow
> > from the west, why can't you get heavy freezing rain from
> > there?
>
> Because of the warming effect of the Gulf Stream on
> the west of Britain. The whole West coast has the highest
> rainfall, highest wind speeds, and the warmest winter
> temperatures. All thanks to the Atlantic and the GS.
>
> The East coast is far drier, less windy, and colder in
> winter.

On average, certainly. However, it wll make little difference
in temperatures when those Siberian winds sweep in.

I did look up what is meant by the 'Atlantic climate zone'
in the meantime. It turns out that authorities differ on it.
Some maps let it stop in the middle of Denmark, so excluding Copenhagen.
Others include all of Denmark, end even a part of Southern Sweden.
(mostly Scania)

No reason to include Copenhagen in brass monkey territory though,

Jan

On 2024-04-22, Hibou wrote:

> Le 22/xx/20xx à 08:31, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>> On 20xx-xx-21 19:06:31 +0000, Sam Plusnet said:
>>>
>>> Didn't the ladies on the tills in French supermarkets once acquire a
>>> nickname which was derived from the beeping sound?
>>
>> Maybe, but I don't think I've come across it.
>
> Nor I, and I can find nothing online. It's not "Justine Caissière" anyway.

Is that a cross-language pun on "just in case"?

> I not a fan of supermarket shopping, especially where one is pushed
> towards self-service tills. There always seems to be some problem with
> these - and I feel there should be a discount for our doing the work
> that the cashier would do - which there isn't, of course.
>
> For some years now, we've had our groceries delivered. This is cheap and
> works very well, at least since we swapped from Sainsbury's to Tesco. A
> useful trick is to finalise the order the day before, by which time the
> computers seem to have a very good idea of what's going to be available.
> (I don't think the picking is done in a dark store, which would be even
> more predictable.)
>

--
By those who see with their eyes closed
You'll know me by my black telescope

On 2024-04-22, jerryfriedman wrote:

> Hibou wrote:
>
>> Le 22/xx/20xx à 08:31, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>>> On 20xx-xx-21 19:06:31 +0000, Sam Plusnet said:
>>>>
>>>> Didn't the ladies on the tills in French supermarkets once acquire a
>>>> nickname which was derived from the beeping sound?
>
> (Piggybacking.) Are they still ladies? Around here the cashiers
> seems to include an similar number of gentlemen.
>
>>> Maybe, but I don't think I've come across it.
>
>> Nor I, and I can find nothing online. It's not "Justine Caissière" anyway.
>
>> I not a fan of supermarket shopping, especially where one is pushed
>> towards self-service tills. There always seems to be some problem with
>> these - and I feel there should be a discount for our doing the work
>> that the cashier would do - which there isn't, of course.
>
>> For some years now, we've had our groceries delivered. This is cheap and
>> works very well, at least since we swapped from Sainsbury's to Tesco. A
>> useful trick is to finalise the order the day before, by which time the
>> computers seem to have a very good idea of what's going to be available.
>> (I don't think the picking is done in a dark store, which would be even
>> more predictable.)
>
> I hadn't previously encountered "dark store", a warehouse for fulfillment
> of online orders, often laid out like a supermarket.

No, but I have heard of "dark kitchens":

“Dark kitchens” are places where meals are prepared entirely for
delivery. They have been used for decades in areas such as catering
for mass events, but the idea of gearing them towards home takeaways
is relatively recent. It’s a leap that has only been made possible
by the rise of food delivery platforms, and the global leader of the
concept is Deliveroo, which opened its first dark kitchen in London
in 2016. Today, the company boasts 250 in eight countries, each of
them home to a fluid array of tenants, including international chain
restaurants, tentative startups and virtual brands, some of which
might “exist” on the app for just a few weeks.

To many, the notion of a whole host of different cuisines emerging
from the same kitchen – with a chef simultaneously preparing a pizza
on one work surface and a Sichuan hot pot on another – feels
unsettling, but it reflects the logic of the abstracted digital
marketplace; the New Yorker recently described dark kitchens as “the
culinary equivalent of a multicolour retractable pen”.

<https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/17/dark-kitchens-food-delivery-apps-inside-kitchen-work>

<https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/apr/25/deliveroo-tech-delivery-restaurant-service-dark-kitchens>

--
I have a great programming joke but it's only
funny on my machine.

Adam Funk wrote:

> To many, the notion of a whole host of different cuisines emerging
> from the same kitchen – with a chef simultaneously preparing a pizza
> on one work surface and a Sichuan hot pot on another – feels
> unsettling, but it reflects the logic of the abstracted digital
> marketplace; the New Yorker recently described dark kitchens as “the
> culinary equivalent of a multicolour retractable pen”.

They have to take good care of not mixing ingredients in dishes targeted
for vegetarians or people with an allergy/intolerance.

A week ago I bought a prepared dish in my local supermarket. I got
mildly sick in a way that told me that some kind of bird meat (probably
chicken) was present in the dish. The label said "Tenderloin with cream
potatoes".

That was the first and last meal I'll try from that shop.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

On 2024-05-08, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

> Adam Funk wrote:
>
>> To many, the notion of a whole host of different cuisines emerging
>> from the same kitchen – with a chef simultaneously preparing a pizza
>> on one work surface and a Sichuan hot pot on another – feels
>> unsettling, but it reflects the logic of the abstracted digital
>> marketplace; the New Yorker recently described dark kitchens as “the
>> culinary equivalent of a multicolour retractable pen”.
>
> They have to take good care of not mixing ingredients in dishes targeted
> for vegetarians or people with an allergy/intolerance.

Maybe not much more than a single-style kitchen, though. Most cuisines
include most allergens, I think.

> A week ago I bought a prepared dish in my local supermarket. I got
> mildly sick in a way that told me that some kind of bird meat (probably
> chicken) was present in the dish. The label said "Tenderloin with cream
> potatoes".
>
> That was the first and last meal I'll try from that shop.

Good idea.

--
There's a statute of limitations with the law, but not with
your wife. ---Ray Magliozzi, Car Talk 2011-36