Hibou:
> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>>
>> [...]
>> [sig]
>> Bertel
>> Kolt, Denmark
>
> Sounds like a one-horse town.

Twinned with Philadelphia, though.

--
John

Le 23/04/2024 à 01:35, Sam Plusnet a écrit :
> On 22-Apr-24 21:18, Snidely wrote:
>>
>> But it's a metric country!
>
> Which gave me a brief mental image of a country which has been trimmed
> to some exact multiple of one metre.
> What do they do with the offcuts?

Belgium is made of offcuts.

Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>>>
>>> [...]
>>> [sig]
>>> Bertel
>>> Kolt, Denmark
>>
>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
>
> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.

Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be frigid.
Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.

/Anders, Denmark

On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
>> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>> [sig]
>>>> Bertel
>>>> Kolt, Denmark
>>>
>>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
>>
>> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
>
> Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be frigid.
> Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.

From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> > Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
> >> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> >>>>
> >>>> [...]
> >>>> [sig]
> >>>> Bertel
> >>>> Kolt, Denmark
> >>>
> >>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
> >>
> >> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
> >
> > Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be frigid.
> > Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
>
> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.

I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
bloomin' cold. It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't have
the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
UK is blessed with.

If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
ice storms and the like:

<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> > Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
> >> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> >>>>
> >>>> [...]
> >>>> [sig]
> >>>> Bertel
> >>>> Kolt, Denmark
> >>>
> >>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
> >>
> >> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
> >
> > Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be frigid.
> > Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
>
> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.

As is all of Scotland.
(Copenhagen is at about the same latitude as Glasgow)

Jan

Sn!pe wrote:

> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>> > Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
>> >> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>> >>>>
>> >>>> [...]
>> >>>> [sig]
>> >>>> Bertel
>> >>>> Kolt, Denmark
>> >>>
>> >>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
>> >>
>> >> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
>> >
>> > Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be
frigid.
>> > Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
>>
>> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.

> I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
> bloomin' cold. It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't have
> the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
> UK is blessed with.

Oh, come on. Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
monkeys start to notice. I went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana,
Illinois, where the average January low (1981-2010) is 16.7 F (-8.5 C).

https://www.isws.illinois.edu/statecli/cuweather/cu-averages.htm

That counts as a cold winter, though it's not like Minnesota.

> If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
> we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
> ice storms and the like:

> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>

Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
phenomenon
of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?

--
Jerry Fredman

Den 03-05-2024 kl. 15:46 skrev Sn!pe:
> I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
> bloomin' cold.

Depends - usually it's just cold. But at least it is possible to dress
appropriately for cold weather regardless how bloomin' it is.

Unlike the friggin' hot weather of some of the correspondents here:
There is a limit to how much it is possible to undress.

/Anders, Denmark.

Anders D. Nygaard wrote:

> Unlike the friggin' hot weather of some of the correspondents here:
> There is a limit to how much it is possible to undress.

And unpleasant consequences if you do (sunburn).

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> > > Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
> > >> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [...]
> > >>>> [sig]
> > >>>> Bertel
> > >>>> Kolt, Denmark
> > >>>
> > >>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
> > >>
> > >> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
> > >
> > > Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be frigid.
> > > Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
> >
> > From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.
>
> I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
> bloomin' cold. It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't have
> the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
> UK is blessed with.

You shouldn't allow yourself to be misled by those schematic maps
in which ocean currents behave like marching regiments in a battle.
Water surface temperature maps, like
<https://seos-project.eu/oceancurrents/images/c03_occamsst.jpg>
for example, give a much better idea of what is really happening.
As you can see, all of the North Sea, from Ostend to Oslo,
and Edinburgh to Copenhaven is almost at the same temperature.
This is not surprising when you know that there is a strong
resonant tidal circulation.

> If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
> we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
> ice storms and the like:
>
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>

Yes, unknown like that in Western Europe,

Jan

jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sn!pe wrote:
>
> > Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> >> > Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
> >> >> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> [...]
> >> >>>> [sig]
> >> >>>> Bertel
> >> >>>> Kolt, Denmark
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
> >> >>
> >> >> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
> >> >
> >> > Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be
> frigid.
> >> > Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
> >>
> >> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.
>
> > I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
> > bloomin' cold. It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't have
> > the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
> > UK is blessed with.
>
> Oh, come on. Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
> monkeys start to notice. I went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana,
> Illinois, where the average January low (1981-2010) is 16.7 F (-8.5 C).

Indeed. Those Copenhagians count themselves lucky
when they can skate on real natural ice in their parks.
(rather than an ice rink)

> https://www.isws.illinois.edu/statecli/cuweather/cu-averages.htm
>
> That counts as a cold winter, though it's not like Minnesota.

Don't use such strange terms, like 'fall frost'.

> > If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
> > we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
> > ice storms and the like:
>
> > <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
>
> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
> phenomenon
> of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?

Freezing rain is not unknown, but 1/4" of it is extremely rare.
OTOH just one mm of it will bring trafic to a standstil,

Jan

On 2024-05-04 15:54:12 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>>>> Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
>>>>> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> [sig]
>>>>>>> Bertel
>>>>>>> Kolt, Denmark
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be frigid.
>>>> Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
>>>
>>> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.
>>
>> I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
>> bloomin' cold. It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't have
>> the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
>> UK is blessed with.
>
> You shouldn't allow yourself to be misled by those schematic maps
> in which ocean currents behave like marching regiments in a battle.
> Water surface temperature maps, like
> <https://seos-project.eu/oceancurrents/images/c03_occamsst.jpg>
> for example, give a much better idea of what is really happening.
> As you can see, all of the North Sea, from Ostend to Oslo,
> and Edinburgh to Copenhaven is almost at the same temperature.
> This is not surprising when you know that there is a strong
> resonant tidal circulation.

OK, but Glasgow, only a little south of Edinburgh, is less cold and
much wetter.
>> If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
>> we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
>> ice storms and the like:
>>
>> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
>
> Yes, unknown like that in Western Europe,
>
> Jan

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sn!pe wrote:
>
> > Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> >> > Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
> >> >> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> [...]
> >> >>>> [sig]
> >> >>>> Bertel
> >> >>>> Kolt, Denmark
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
> >> >>
> >> >> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
> >> >
> >> > Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be
> frigid.
> >> > Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
> >>
> >> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.
>
> > I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
> > bloomin' cold. It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't have
> > the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
> > UK is blessed with.
>
> Oh, come on. Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
> monkeys start to notice.
>

I have been there myself when it was -15C. My Danish father in law
told me that when it reaches -20C it is illegal to go outside without an
excellent reason because of the unnecessary strain it puts on rescue
services. That was in the mid-'70s.

> I went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana,
> Illinois, where the average January low (1981-2010) is 16.7 F (-8.5 C).
>
> https://www.isws.illinois.edu/statecli/cuweather/cu-averages.htm
>
> That counts as a cold winter, though it's not like Minnesota.
>
> >
> > If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
> > we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
> > ice storms and the like:
>
> > <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
> >
>
> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
> phenomenon
> of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?
>

Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

Sn!pe wrote:

> I have been there myself when it was -15C. My Danish father in law
> told me that when it reaches -20C it is illegal to go outside without an
> excellent reason because of the unnecessary strain it puts on rescue
> services. That was in the mid-'70s.

That is not quite true. There is no prohibition. If the weather is that
cold, the police recommends that we do not go by car unless really
necessary. There are no recommendations for pedistrians and people
riding bikes.

This is true today, and it was true then.

The police may forbid us to go out on the ice on lakes. That is a
specific ban and not a permanent law.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

> Sn!pe wrote:
>
> > I have been there myself when it was -15C. My Danish father in law
> > told me that when it reaches -20C it is illegal to go outside without an
> > excellent reason because of the unnecessary strain it puts on rescue
> > services. That was in the mid-'70s.
>
> That is not quite true. There is no prohibition. If the weather is that
> cold, the police recommends that we do not go by car unless really
> necessary. There are no recommendations for pedistrians and people
> riding bikes.
>
> This is true today, and it was true then.
>
> The police may forbid us to go out on the ice on lakes. That is a
> specific ban and not a permanent law.
>

Ah well, I suppose that's what happens when a naïve Englishmen listens
to a Dane who has poor English. Perhaps I misunderstood what he was
trying to say. Whatever...

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

J. J. Lodder wrote:

> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>
>> > Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>> >> > Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
>> >> >> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> [...]
>> >> >>>> [sig]
>> >> >>>> Bertel
>> >> >>>> Kolt, Denmark
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
>> >> >
>> >> > Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be
>> frigid.
>> >> > Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
>> >>
>> >> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.
>>
>> > I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
>> > bloomin' cold. It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't have
>> > the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
>> > UK is blessed with.
>>
>> Oh, come on. Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
>> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
>> monkeys start to notice. I went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana,
>> Illinois, where the average January low (1981-2010) is 16.7 F (-8.5 C).

> Indeed. Those Copenhagians count themselves lucky
> when they can skate on real natural ice in their parks.
> (rather than an ice rink)

>> https://www.isws.illinois.edu/statecli/cuweather/cu-averages.htm
>>
>> That counts as a cold winter, though it's not like Minnesota.

> Don't use such strange terms, like 'fall frost'.

>> > If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
>> > we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
>> > ice storms and the like:
>>
>> > <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
>>
>> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
>> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
>> phenomenon
>> of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?

> Freezing rain is not unknown, but 1/4" of it is extremely rare.
> OTOH just one mm of it will bring trafic to a standstil,

A quarter inch is rare here too. And I don't think it's unreasonable
for a mere mm to stop traffic.

--
Jerry Friedman

Sn!pe wrote:

> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>
>> > Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>> >> > Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
>> >> >> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> [...]
>> >> >>>> [sig]
>> >> >>>> Bertel
>> >> >>>> Kolt, Denmark
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
>> >> >
>> >> > Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be
>> frigid.
>> >> > Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
>> >>
>> >> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.
>>
>> > I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
>> > bloomin' cold. It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't have
>> > the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
>> > UK is blessed with.
>>
>> Oh, come on. Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
>> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
>> monkeys start to notice.
>>

> I have been there myself when it was -15C. My Danish father in law
> told me that when it reaches -20C it is illegal to go outside without an
> excellent reason because of the unnecessary strain it puts on rescue
> services. That was in the mid-'70s.

I agree that that's cold. Wind straight from Karelia?

-15 C was nothing surprising when I was a kid in Cleveland or when I
was in grad school in C-U, and -23 C (-10 F) happened often enough
in C-U that I learned to recognize the way it felt. But I find it
interesting that the record low in Denmark proper (-31.2 C) is only
slightly warmer than the record in Champaign (-31.7 C). Of course,
Denmark is rather bigger than the Champaign airport, which is
probably where the temperatures are recorded.

>> I went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana,
>> Illinois, where the average January low (1981-2010) is 16.7 F (-8.5 C).
>>
>> https://www.isws.illinois.edu/statecli/cuweather/cu-averages.htm
>>
>> That counts as a cold winter, though it's not like Minnesota.
>>
>> >
>> > If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
>> > we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
>> > ice storms and the like:
>>
>> > <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
>> >
>>
>> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
>> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
>> phenomenon
>> of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?
>>

> Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
> North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.

Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
when the temperature is slightly below freezing. Doesn't that, or didn't
that, occur a lot in England in winter? The other requirement is rain,
which I understand you're not short of.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2024-05-06 13:33:55 +0000, jerryfriedman said:

> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>>>>>> Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
>>>>>>> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>> [sig]
>>>>>>>>> Bertel
>>>>>>>>> Kolt, Denmark
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be
>>> frigid.
>>>>>> Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
>>>>>
>>>>> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.
>>>
>>>> I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
>>>> bloomin' cold. It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't have
>>>> the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
>>>> UK is blessed with.
>>>
>>> Oh, come on. Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
>>> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
>>> monkeys start to notice. I went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana,
>>> Illinois, where the average January low (1981-2010) is 16.7 F (-8.5 C).
>
>> Indeed. Those Copenhagians count themselves lucky
>> when they can skate on real natural ice in their parks.
>> (rather than an ice rink)
>
>>> https://www.isws.illinois.edu/statecli/cuweather/cu-averages.htm
>>>
>>> That counts as a cold winter, though it's not like Minnesota.
>
>> Don't use such strange terms, like 'fall frost'.
>
>>>> If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
>>>> we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have ice
>>>> storms and the like:
>>>
>>>> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
>>>
>>> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
>>> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
>>> phenomenon
>>> of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?
>
>> Freezing rain is not unknown, but 1/4" of it is extremely rare.
>> OTOH just one mm of it will bring trafic to a standstil,
>
> A quarter inch is rare here too. And I don't think it's unreasonable
> for a mere mm to stop traffic.

It depends a lot on where you are. In 1967 I spent a winter on
sabbatical in Guelph (Ontario). There isn't much to do in Guelph on a
cold (-20° at times at the beginning) weekend, so I used to take the
bus to Toronto every Friday to spend a couple of nights in my aunt's
house. Regardless of the temperature or the amount of snow the bus
always left exactly on time and always arrived exactly on time. They
know how to handle cold weather in that part of the world.

Ten years later we moved to Marseilles in March, but I spent a couple
of days here in January to arrange some things and look at some
possible places to live. (Not relevant to this story, but at that time
the electricity workers were on strike, and I walked up 17 floors to
look at a flat.) While I was here it was very windy -- no problem
because they're used to strong winds in Marseilles -- but the week
later, when I was safely back in Blighty, there was a snowstorm that
would pass almost unnoticed in Toronto; as it came with little warning
no one knew what to do, and the whole city was littered with abandoned
cars.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 06-May-24 17:09, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-05-06 13:33:55 +0000, jerryfriedman said:
>
>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>
>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>>>>>>> Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
>>>>>>>> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>> [sig]
>>>>>>>>>> Bertel
>>>>>>>>>> Kolt, Denmark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be
>>>> frigid.
>>>>>>> Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey zone.
>>>>
>>>>> I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
>>>>> bloomin' cold.  It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't
>>>>> have
>>>>> the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
>>>>> UK is blessed with.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, come on.  Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
>>>> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
>>>> monkeys start to notice.  I went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana,
>>>> Illinois, where the average January low (1981-2010) is 16.7 F (-8.5 C).
>>
>>> Indeed. Those Copenhagians count themselves lucky
>>> when they can skate on real natural ice in their parks.
>>> (rather than an ice rink)
>>
>>>> https://www.isws.illinois.edu/statecli/cuweather/cu-averages.htm
>>>>
>>>> That counts as a cold winter, though it's not like Minnesota.
>>
>>> Don't use such strange terms, like 'fall frost'.
>>
>>>>> If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold
>>>>> too;
>>>>> we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
>>>>> ice storms and the like:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
>>>>
>>>> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
>>>> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
>>>> phenomenon
>>>> of chilly weather.  Don't you have them in England too?
>>
>>> Freezing rain is not unknown, but 1/4" of it is extremely rare.
>>> OTOH just one mm of it will bring trafic to a standstil,
>>
>> A quarter inch is rare here too.  And I don't think it's unreasonable
>> for a mere mm to stop traffic.
>
> It depends a lot on where you are. In 1967 I spent a winter on
> sabbatical in Guelph (Ontario). There isn't much to do in Guelph on a
> cold (-20° at times at the beginning) weekend, so I used to take the bus
> to Toronto every Friday to spend a couple of nights in my aunt's house.
> Regardless of the temperature or the amount of snow the bus always left
> exactly on time and always arrived exactly on time. They know how to
> handle cold weather in that part of the world.

It also depends on the "when".
I know someone who was living in Oslo, and after a series of very mild
winters they had maybe 5 millimetres of snow at the start of winter.
There were cars abandoned everywhere and chaos reigned.

OK, Oslo isn't Guelph or Winterpeg, but the knowledge of how to handle
cold weather seems to fade with time.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 06-May-24 14:50, jerryfriedman wrote:
> Sn!pe wrote:
>
>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>>
>>> > Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> On 03/05/24 01:43, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>>> >> > Den 22-04-2024 kl. 15:08 skrev Sn!pe:
>>> >> >> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> Le 22/04/2024 à 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> [...]
>>> >> >>>> [sig]
>>> >> >>>> Bertel
>>> >> >>>> Kolt, Denmark
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Sounds like a one-horse town.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Or 45 revolvers, perhaps.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Actually, the obvious association to a Dane is that it must be
>>> frigid.
>>> >> > Should work (though less perfectly) for Anglophones too.
>>> >> >>  From my point of view, the whole of Denmark is a brass monkey
>>> zone.
>>>
>>> > I can confirm from my own experience that København in January is
>>> > bloomin' cold.  It's on a similar latitude to Edinburgh and doesn't
>>> have
>>> > the benefit of the North Atlantic Drift current of warm water that the
>>> > UK is blessed with.
>>> Oh, come on.  Web sources disagree, but the average January low in
>>> Copenhagen seems to be near -2 C, which is about where brass
>>> monkeys start to notice.
>
>> I have been there myself when it was -15C.  My Danish father in law
>> told me that when it reaches -20C it is illegal to go outside without an
>> excellent reason because of the unnecessary strain it puts on rescue
>> services.  That was in the mid-'70s.
>
> I agree that that's cold.  Wind straight from Karelia?
>
> -15 C was nothing surprising when I was a kid in Cleveland or when I
> was in grad school in C-U, and -23 C (-10 F) happened often enough
> in C-U that I learned to recognize the way it felt.  But I find it
> interesting that the record low in Denmark proper (-31.2 C) is only
> slightly warmer than the record in Champaign (-31.7 C).  Of course,
> Denmark is rather bigger than the Champaign airport, which is
> probably where the temperatures are recorded.
>
>>> I went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana,
>>> Illinois, where the average January low (1981-2010) is 16.7 F (-8.5 C).
>>>
>>> https://www.isws.illinois.edu/statecli/cuweather/cu-averages.htm
>>>
>>> That counts as a cold winter, though it's not like Minnesota.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold
>>> too;
>>> > we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
>>> > ice storms and the like:
>>> > <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
>>> >
>>>
>>> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
>>> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
>>> phenomenon
>>> of chilly weather.  Don't you have them in England too?
>>>
>
>> Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
>> North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.
>
> Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
> when the temperature is slightly below freezing.  Doesn't that, or didn't
> that, occur a lot in England in winter?  The other requirement is rain,
> which I understand you're not short of.
>
After more than 70 years spent in various parts of the UK, I can say
that the only time I really experienced freezing rain, forming a thick
layer of ice was in North Germany (near Bremen). We couldn't get into
the car since the thick layer of ice had sealed it shut. Traction on
the road was sub-optimal as well.

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet wrote:

> It also depends on the "when".
> I know someone who was living in Oslo, and after a series of very mild
> winters they had maybe 5 millimetres of snow at the start of winter.
> There were cars abandoned everywhere and chaos reigned.
>
> OK, Oslo isn't Guelph or Winterpeg, but the knowledge of how to handle
> cold weather seems to fade with time.

Time = 1 year.

In Denmark cold weather surprises cardrivers the first couple of days.
This is standard every year when we have cold weather. I don't think
people abandon their cars. It's more a question of them landing at the
side of the road needing help to get free.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Sam Plusnet wrote:

> After more than 70 years spent in various parts of the UK, I can say
> that the only time I really experienced freezing rain, forming a thick
> layer of ice was in North Germany (near Bremen). We couldn't get into
> the car since the thick layer of ice had sealed it shut. Traction on
> the road was sub-optimal as well.

Some decades ago we had a sudden ice rain leaving about ½ cm of ice.
Many people had to crawl home. I was lucky that I could walk home slowly
and carefully, but my bicycle slipped from me several times.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> >> > If the Gulf Stream ever fails dear old Blighty will be pretty cold too;
> >> > we're on roughly the same latitude as Newfoundland where they have
> >> > ice storms and the like:
> >>
> >> > <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=newfoundland+ice+storm>
> >> >
> >>
> >> Ice storms (freezing rain, defined by the U.S National Weather Service
> >> as causing a layer of ice at least 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) thick) are a
> >> phenomenon
> >> of chilly weather. Don't you have them in England too?
> >>
>
> > Extremely rarely; we have a maritime climate made very mild by the
> > North Atlantic Drift of the Gulf Stream, not a continental climate.
> >
>
> Sure, but why does that make ice storms especially unlikely? They occur
> when the temperature is slightly below freezing. Doesn't that, or didn't
> that, occur a lot in England in winter? The other requirement is rain,
> which I understand you're not short of.
>

We tend to get snow instead, sometimes quite heavy, especially in the
North. In latter years that's less common [because reason of choice].

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Mon, 6 May 2024 21:42:42 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

>Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> After more than 70 years spent in various parts of the UK, I can say
>> that the only time I really experienced freezing rain, forming a thick
>> layer of ice was in North Germany (near Bremen). We couldn't get into
>> the car since the thick layer of ice had sealed it shut. Traction on
>> the road was sub-optimal as well.
>
>Some decades ago we had a sudden ice rain leaving about ½ cm of ice.
>Many people had to crawl home. I was lucky that I could walk home slowly
>and carefully, but my bicycle slipped from me several times.

The really, really slippery ice is what we call 'black ice' -- and
it does not take much rain. What it takes is a cold road, and
just enough water to make a surface that is practically
frictionless. The rain hits the road and barely freezes, ready
to hit ultimate slickness when pressure is applied by a tire or
a shoe.

The exact conditions are relatively rare in the US, I'm pretty sure.
They don't happen often enough to have a standard warning
available, to distinguish from the ordinary "slippery and unsafe"
which is a lot safer.

Black ice is what produces the occasional videos of cars or
trucks sliding sideways on roads that look pretty level.

The one time I drove on black ice, I didn't know anything; and
I was puzzled why all these drivers were creeping at 2 mph
on a main avenue going out of Baltimore. When there was
a space in the adjoining lane, I twitched the steering wheel
and hit the gas a little ... and kept going straight, wheels
spinning. Oops. 2 mph was about the max for control.

There was a Howard Johnson's in the next block or so that
I pulled in to, and had a coffee while waiting for conditions
to change.

--
Rich Ulrich

Rich Ulrich wrote:

> The really, really slippery ice is what we call 'black ice' -- and
> it does not take much rain. What it takes is a cold road, and
> just enough water to make a surface that is practically
> frictionless. The rain hits the road and barely freezes, ready
> to hit ultimate slickness when pressure is applied by a tire or
> a shoe.

Yes, we call it "sort is" as well. Maybe ten days ago there was a
serious incident on the motor road (?). I think that about ten cars were
involved, and two people were seriously wounded - several others less
seriously so. The police had warned about the risk of black ice, but the
problem was that we had had many days with fair weather - not warm, but
not cold either. The ground, however, was not warm, so when a streak of
cold wind hit the country, we had this dangerous condition.

The drivers may not have heard the warning, or they may not have taken
it seriously because the roads looked fine. I drove in the afternoon
that same day on the same stretch, but the sun had long ago melted any
ice.

> The exact conditions are relatively rare in the US, I'm pretty sure.

I remember some occasions in Denmark, but that covers several decades.

> Black ice is what produces the occasional videos of cars or
> trucks sliding sideways on roads that look pretty level.

When driving with snow and ice on the road, I usually find a space and
period where no other car is near, and then I break carefully to see how
bad it is. Once I did that at a speed of maybe 30 mph, the car slowly
spun 270 degrees, not reacting to my turning the wheel, ending on the
grass section in the middle of the road. Cars coming from behind, that
had until then kept a normal speed, suddenly began to go quite slowly.

There was no problem for me, and I could easily drive on when the road
was free.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark