Carlos E.R. wrote:

> All the programs I use, when I use the menu "exit" they exit fully the
> application. I can not remember any that doesn't.
>
> Unless they are not windows of the same application, but actually a new
> instance of the application. For example, if you start peazip twice,
> that's two independent applications.
>
> I can also start two different firefoxes, each with a different profile.
> Exiting one doesn't exit the other.

Not tried it with two windows using different profiles, but since the
electrolysis multi-thread versions, what may start out life as a
separate instance of firefox, with different PID, seems to get "taken
over" and become the child processes of an existing firefox parent.

On 2024-04-16 19:54, Newyana2 wrote:
> On 4/16/2024 8:39 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>

....

>
>   How have you used Windows for so long and didn't know it
> worked this way?

I don't use Windows.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-04-17 02:13, SomeoneNeverSeenBefore@Wonderland.com wrote:
> In alt.comp.software.firefox, on Tue, 16 Apr 2024 13:54:48 -0400,
> Newyana2 <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>
>> On 4/16/2024 8:39 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>>> All the programs I use, when I use the menu "exit" they exit fully the
>>> application. I can not remember any that doesn't.
>>>
>> All what programs? I just listed several that all act as expected.
>> Only LO and FF are aberrant.
>
> It depends on what you think is normal. I think FF is not aberrant.
> It's normal. It works just like Chrome. You listed several but
> skipped Chrome, which is a *web browser*, unlike all the others you
> listed.
>
> (You don't seem to have seen my previous posts, so maybe I'm included,
> by accident I'm sure, in some newsreader filter.)
>
> You listed "Filezilla, Notepad, Visual Studio 6,
> PeaZip, Sumatra, IrfanView, Paint Shop Pro, VLC, and an HLP file.
> All are either MDI or work as expected, with File Exit closing only
> that window. " Do any of these actually allow one to open an
> additional window from within the program itself? I think not so they
> are not comparable to FF. They are red herrings.
>
>>> Unless they are not windows of the same application, but actually a new
>>> instance of the application. For example, if you start peazip twice,
>>> that's two independent applications.
>
> I think Carlos figured it out when he points out just below how two
> *separate* instances can be started, and Exit only closes the one in
> focus. I would add that by clicking on a file that brings up Notepad,
> Visual Studio 6, IrfanView, Paint Shop Pro, VLC, or the HLP program, you
> have also started a new instance of the program. So of course Exiting
> it only exits one window.

Exactly.

I have now four firefoxes open, and file/exit on anyone closes only that
one.

(we are on the FF nntp group ;-) )

>
> I tried Irfanview and there is no way to start a second instance of it.
> So it's not parallel, not comparable to Firefox, where new instances are
> started from within FF by Alt-N. I'm pretty sure all of the others you
> list are the same. With none can you start a second window from the
> program.
>
> Carlos said:
>>> I can also start two different firefoxes, each with a different profile.
>>> Exiting one doesn't exit the other.
>>>
>>
>> There are two kinds of windows: SDI and MDI. Tabs is an MDI
>> or multiple document interface window. You're mixing up topics.
>
> I think you have changed the subject. Even you don't think it's
> "aberrant" that all tabs get closed when one uses Exit. Your complaint
> WAS that more than one window, that is all the windows except for those
> started under a different profile, get closed by Exit.

Right.

>
>> Profiles has nothing to do with it. If I start 2 separate FF windows,
>> going to File -> Exit in one will quit both.
>
> No, AFAiCR, not if you started them separately using two profiles.
>
>> No different profiles.
>
> But Carlos was talking about different profiles, so you can't now say
> "no different profiles". You're no longer arguing with Carlos.

Right.

>
>> That's not supposed to happen.
>>
>> I can open 10 separate FF
>> windows and sometimes do, because I don't like tabs. Each closes
>> singly if I click the X. All close if I go to File -> Exit. That shouldn't
>> happen.
>
> No, it absolutely should. If Exit didn't close all 10 FF windows, you'd
> have to close each one separately. ?What a pain that would be!
>
> Say you realize a new version of FF is available, and you want to
> install it. It won't install until all windows are closed, and you're
> spending 5 minutes closing 10 windows.
>
>> One way of closing is closing a single instance. The other
>> is closing all instances as though the separate windows were tabs.
>> Both should only close that window.
>>
>> Every program should be either SDI or MDI, and it's up to the
>> developer whether multiple instances can be open. Some, like
>> Irfan View, let you choose. Separate
>> instances should not be linked.
>
> So Chrome is not written right, either?
>
> And I spent some more time with MS Edge, written by MS itself!! It has
> no Menu Bar, but I found one main drop down, 3 dots on the right, that
> allows one to start a new window. Ctrl-N will also start one. So
> when I got up to 5 windows, some with multiple tabs, I noticed that the
> same drop-down list of commands didn't have Exit, but it did have Close
> Microsoft Edge, and guess what? when I clicked on it, it closed all 5
> windows in one click. Another aberration, or the standard for web
> browsers?

It is the normal and expected behaviour.

>
>> In most cases, an MDI program
>> window will not allow separate instances, anyway. For example,
>> Thunderbird or PDF XChange Viewer. Each will only open one
>> window at a time.
>
> Then they are irrelevant to this discussion.
>
>> How have you used Windows for so long and didn't know it
>> worked this way? I don't know what the Mozilla and LO people
>> are thinking. Maybe they're copying a Mac or Linux protocol.
>> I'm glad to know it, though. I often get a lot of FF windows
>> open. It's tedious to walk the taskbar doing right-click, Close
>> window.
>
> Darn right, it's tedious. No wonder Windows standards give a way around
> it.
>
>> Now I know that I can close all of them at once.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 4/17/2024 8:49 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

>>    How have you used Windows for so long and didn't know it
>> worked this way?
>
> I don't use Windows.
>
Ah. That may explain it. These days Microsoft have been
getting a bit wacky with software GUIs and 3rd-party products
have been doing weird things. I recently tried a ZIP program that
wouldn't let me have any window except a squash-color that
looks like a Metro app but isn't. But traditionally, Microsoft
have suggested standards that people follow. That's why File
menus always have New, Save, Exit; Edit menus always have
Cut, Copy, Paste; etc.

The idea is that people should be able to install any program and
have a general idea of how to use it. The program should also
respect their display preferences. Traditionally the File - Exit
menu is treated like clicking the X -- it's understood to mean
"Clean up and close as soon as possible". It only applies to that
window, whether there are multiple doccuments in it or not.

If I close one instance of Notepad that should not affect any
other instance. And it doesn't. Nearly all Windows programs
follow those basic standards.

I've never noticed anything especially unusual on Linux, but
I probably haven't used File -> Exit since the 90s, so I wouldn't
have noticed that one. I always use the X at top right. It's
possible that FF and LO are written by people following Linux
standards, or some other system. Libre Office is actually funky in
a number of ways. For example, you can't File -> Save to PDF.
You have to go File -> Export. GIMP does similar with non-GIMP
formats. Those aberrations just confuse people.

On 2024-04-17 16:24, Newyana2 wrote:
> On 4/17/2024 8:49 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>>>    How have you used Windows for so long and didn't know it
>>> worked this way?
>>
>> I don't use Windows.
>>
>    Ah. That may explain it. These days Microsoft have been
> getting a bit wacky with software GUIs and 3rd-party products
> have been doing weird things. I recently tried a ZIP program that
> wouldn't let me have any window except a squash-color that
> looks like a Metro app but isn't. But traditionally, Microsoft
> have suggested standards that people follow. That's why File
> menus always have New, Save, Exit; Edit menus always have
> Cut, Copy, Paste; etc.
>
>   The idea is that people should be able to install any program and
> have a general idea of how to use it. The program should also
> respect their display preferences. Traditionally the File - Exit
> menu is treated like clicking the X -- it's understood to mean
> "Clean up and close as soon as possible". It only applies to that
> window, whether there are multiple doccuments in it or not.
>
>    If I close one instance of Notepad that should not affect any
> other instance. And it doesn't. Nearly all Windows programs
> follow those basic standards.

If I close one instance of Libre Office, only that document is closed.
However, if I _exit_ Libre Office, it exits all instances of it. The
menu entry clearly says "Exit LibreOffice".

>
>    I've never noticed anything especially unusual on Linux, but
> I probably haven't used File -> Exit since the 90s, so I wouldn't
> have noticed that one. I always use the X at top right. It's
> possible that FF and LO are written by people following Linux
> standards, or some other system. Libre Office is actually funky in
> a number of ways. For example, you can't File -> Save to PDF.
> You have to go File -> Export. GIMP does similar with non-GIMP
> formats. Those aberrations just confuse people.

Save as PDF is simply not done, intentionally, because you can not
afterwards open and edit the PDF and have all the features of a document
available. PDF is considered an output format, for writing the final
product, not for editing the document.

Gimp uses a similar convention: saving the work must save everything. If
you save as png then some information, such as layers, is lost. Thus you
can not save to png.

Both are perfectly consistent. Yes, I did not like the change when they
did that, but now I consider it as correct.

--
Cheers, Carlos.