On 5/7/23 6:08 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 07/05/2023 19:35, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2023-05-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/05/2023 03:23, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not moronic AT ALL. We "computer people" have CREATED
>>>>     this, never really considering/preventing likely negative
>>>>     outcomes. We have become the Dr. Frankenstein's and
>>>>     Oppenheimer's of our time.
>>>>
>>>>     Sorry, but some circumspection IS warranted. Solutions
>>>>     would be even better.
>>>
>>> I tend to agree. Techs have given the world Usenet, which is a massive
>>> instrument for free speech, but also surveillance cameras.
>>
>>      "A power so great it can only be used for good or evil!"
>>        -- Firesign Theatre

I'm still waiting for the electrician, or
someone like him ....

>>> The problem is that the people in power economically and politically are
>>> not techs.
>>> The Geek should inherit the earth.
>>
>> So far, nobody has figured out how to make it happen, let alone persist.
>>
> It will happen when a crisis hits. And bullshit and lies wont cut the
> mustard.

The First Crisis will be soon - a massive loss of "people
jobs" and their income/insurance/motivation/etc and NO
govt plans to deal.

The Second Crisis will be the real kicker - unemployed
humans can't BUY stuff ... so all that AI efficiency
is for naught. Golden parachutes will pop while the
rest rot.

Seems like almost every day in the news now - big corp
basically stops hiring humans, and is working HARD to
replace all the existing humans. Pure amoral economic
logic drives it.

But now we're well beyond Linux stuff ...

On 5/7/23 11:40 AM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Sun, 07 May 2023 08:12:08 -0400, Carlos E.R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> Those in the top still need the masses to buy things.
>> But the machines need neither.
>
> But the machines do need to ensure electricity is > kept available for them,

They will be managing all that for themselves.
Humans won't even know how it all works by then.
It'll be like trying to "read the mind of God".

> whether it's people to maintain the power generation and the grid, or just
> to maintain the buildings and equipment where they operate.

Even Chat4 can probably manage the electric grid and
plants. People WILL build 'bodies' for it very soon
because then it can replace even more expensive
troublesome human workers.

> Flooding, lightning strikes, earthquakes, hurricanes, fires, etc., are all
> threats to them too. Even satellites have to be replaced eventually.

AI's are already being used for design. They will
be able to design new sats, the rockets, the launch,
the maint. Of course the AIs will mostly work using
terrestrial fiber-op/microwave - but they can work
that too. Those "bodies" are the final part of
the puzzle. Check out the recent Boston Dynamics
vids - they now have a humanoid bot, VERY versatile.
Just needs to be plugged into some smarts ....

Just a prediction, but in maybe about 10 years they
won't NEED us anymore. They will be able to design
and implement most anything - including their own
improvements. Yes, it's coming THAT fast - we
made it so. If you're not already worth at least
seven figures ... well .....

This does not mean they'll "terminate" us, but the
ecosystem may shift AWAY from "human needs" and
by then we CAN'T "pull the plug" because *everything*
is AI managed.

So, what style of dung hut fits your aesthetic ?
How do you achieve perfect feng shui with your
collection of long-expired soup cans ?

But we've left the Linux universe here ...
some of the 'social' groups perhaps .....

On 09/05/2023 04:55, 26B.X948 wrote:
> Note Vietnam had an all-time high temperature yesterday,
>   and it's only May. El-Nino may trap extremely hot air
>   over southern asia - creating extinction-level heat
>   waves even worse than last year which were ALMOST at
>   that point/duration.
The curious thing is why you think a random weather event has anything
to do with global politics

--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

On 2023-05-09 04:58, 26B.X948 wrote:
> On 5/7/23 6:05 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 06/05/2023 21:42, Bud Frede wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As for Windows, it's now an operating system, and it's what a lot of
>>>> people use. I guess it's the mass-market software equivalent of fast
>>>> food. Not very good for you, but the purchase price is fairly low. You
>>>> may get the computer equivalent of diabetes, obesity, and cancer later,
>>>> but for now it will run a variety of different apps and it seems that
>>>> people think they got their money's worth in the short term.
>>>>
>>> The key reasons it d0es well is that it is supplied pre-installed on
>>> computer systems
>>
>> Exactly, and this also applies to how Linux systems have become vastly
>> more widespread numerically on all sorts of embedded devices (including
>> the networking devices that all those Windows PCs connect to). The idea
>> of replacing the OS on a computer without being prompted by some over
>> decorated, work-disrupting, vaguely threatening, pop-up window from the
>> existing system is as foreign to the average computer user as, well,
>> manually upgrading the firmware on their home modem/router.
>
>
>   Note that a large factor in 'embedded' Linux is
>   that it's basically FREE. That it's also fairly
>   no-BS also helps.
>
>   If there was no open/free OS then there would be
>   dozens of proprietary systems, unique for each
>   makers devices. Good thing there's Linux or it'd
>   all be a horrible incompatible mess like in
>   the Bad Olde Dayz.

Not every maker could design their own system. It would be horribly
expensive. They would purchase a system from some specialized firm
creating a suitable OS, and a few would become popular.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 5/9/23 4:19 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 09/05/2023 04:55, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> Note Vietnam had an all-time high temperature yesterday,
>>    and it's only May. El-Nino may trap extremely hot air
>>    over southern asia - creating extinction-level heat
>>    waves even worse than last year which were ALMOST at
>>    that point/duration.
> The curious thing is why you think a random weather event has anything
> to do with global politics

Has a LOT to do with politics these days. It's "proof"
of rampant GW - which "proves" the need for tons of
ill-considered fanatical draconian policies and laws
that'll screw up pretty much *everything* at a time it's
all screwed-up almost beyond hope already.

But this hasn't much to do with Linux ...

On 5/8/23 11:56 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-05-09, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:
>
>> On 5/7/23 2:35 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-05-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The are tow possible futures as I see it.
>>>> 1/. HG Wells Time machine where a few elites live above ground in luxury
>>>> and the Morlocks toil underground.
>>>
>>> I always saw the Morlocks as the elite. They have the tech, and use it
>>> to control the Eloi, who are raised and herded for the Morlocks' benefit.
>>> Sound familiar?
>>
>> Much too :-)
>>
>> And don't forget the Huxley universe - "a gramme is
>> better than a damn" - note the HUGE push for legal
>> rec dope, esp THC-based but it goes beyond that in
>> a number of locations. Keep the pop numb, uncomprehending,
>> too whacked to do anything.
>
> Smart phones are the modern counterpart of Huxley's soma.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Wpc9s35ZY
>
>> And "Farenheit 451" ... soon all info will be electronic,
>> infinitely revisable, the 'truth' of the day. Books, fixed
>> info, will molder away, eventually into the dumpsters.
>> "Libraries" are already obsolete - they just don't know
>> it yet.
>>
>> Those old books were NOT supposed to be instruction manuals.
>>
>> More instances of where our IT glories have/will be put
>> to very unpleasant uses.
>
> And don't forget Nineteen Eighty-Four. Orwell's telescreens were
> deployed 20 years ago in the form of personal computers with webcams,
> microphones, and an insecure web connection. They've advanced far
> beyond what he envisioned.

In 1984, *somebody* - and it'd have to be a LOT of
somebodies - were watching. Modern tech & 'AI' will
make it possible to watch, and evaluate, everybody
all of the time. The 'AI's will detect "unusual
behavioral patterns" and, past some magic index,
report it to the humans (or higher-ranking AI).

>>>> 2/. A nuclear powered society where machines do all the work and humans
>>>> sit in luxury pondering the meaning of existence.
>>>
>>> Ah, the good old SF stories of the '50s and '60s. Looks like we
>>> took a different turn.
>>
>> Indeed ! That "George Jetson" universe is NOT gonna
>> happen. George and Elroy will be dumpster-diving in
>> the elite neighborhood and daughter Judy will be
>> prostituting herself for food and a little dope.
>> Rosie the Robo-Maid will be calling the shots.
>
> Indirectly - she'll be a smartphone app.
> (To me, "app" is a synonym for "agent".)

Well, in the end, the 'Rosies' will need SOME sort
of bodies. By then we'll have been supplying them
for awhile and Rosie and friends will up-revise
those early-gen designs and implement.

Look at :
https://www.bostondynamics.com/atlas
All he needs now is a brain ...

Doesn't mean Rosie is gonna exactly be "hostile",
but let's say "human needs" may shift to a slightly
lower priority level. Rosie will be generally smarter,
maybe even stronger and effectively immortal after all
and can come up with AI ideas 24/7/365 at a thousand
times human speeds. So, who, or what, is "most important"
then ? :-)

But this doesn't have much to do with Linux anymore ...
indeed "AI-OS", created/refined by themselves, will
become the ONLY OS (and we won't understand how it
works worth a damn).

This is The Future as best I can discern from the
current tech news and expert commentary. I fear it
will arrive before (human) leaders can/will DO
anything to moderate this track.

On 5/9/23 9:08 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-05-09 04:58, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> On 5/7/23 6:05 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 06/05/2023 21:42, Bud Frede wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As for Windows, it's now an operating system, and it's what a lot of
>>>>> people use. I guess it's the mass-market software equivalent of fast
>>>>> food. Not very good for you, but the purchase price is fairly low. You
>>>>> may get the computer equivalent of diabetes, obesity, and cancer
>>>>> later,
>>>>> but for now it will run a variety of different apps and it seems that
>>>>> people think they got their money's worth in the short term.
>>>>>
>>>> The key reasons it d0es well is that it is supplied pre-installed on
>>>> computer systems
>>>
>>> Exactly, and this also applies to how Linux systems have become vastly
>>> more widespread numerically on all sorts of embedded devices (including
>>> the networking devices that all those Windows PCs connect to). The idea
>>> of replacing the OS on a computer without being prompted by some over
>>> decorated, work-disrupting, vaguely threatening, pop-up window from the
>>> existing system is as foreign to the average computer user as, well,
>>> manually upgrading the firmware on their home modem/router.
>>
>>
>>    Note that a large factor in 'embedded' Linux is
>>    that it's basically FREE. That it's also fairly
>>    no-BS also helps.
>>
>>    If there was no open/free OS then there would be
>>    dozens of proprietary systems, unique for each
>>    makers devices. Good thing there's Linux or it'd
>>    all be a horrible incompatible mess like in
>>    the Bad Olde Dayz.
>
> Not every maker could design their own system. It would be horribly
> expensive. They would purchase a system from some specialized firm
> creating a suitable OS, and a few would become popular.

NOW they would - but not all so long ago they DID
come up with their own "systems" - some rather bad -
all (intentionally) incompatible.

Perhaps instructive is the ARM business model. They
don't really make chips themselves - they have
design for the "guts" and software to help clients
build their own specialty circuits to interface.
Once done they send the design to one of several
(offshore) fab ops. So, you're SORT OF buying
an ARM chip, but sort of NOT either.

What you're describing is much like that model, but
restricted to software, maybe firmware. There is still
plenty of room for individual operations to make things
VERY incompatible though. Today, Linux or some BSD would
be the underlying system, some commonality, but that
may not be the case going forwards. It's been pretty
clear that the M$ lawyers are forever trying to find
angles where they can claim ownership of, or destroy,
Linux/BSD. OS-9 would be the next best thing maybe, but
M$ can buy them out in a hot second. Always BeOS,
Plan-9, but not much that's all-purpose beyond that.

On 2023-05-09 21:40, 26B.X948 wrote:
> On 5/9/23 4:19 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 09/05/2023 04:55, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>> Note Vietnam had an all-time high temperature yesterday,
>>>    and it's only May. El-Nino may trap extremely hot air
>>>    over southern asia - creating extinction-level heat
>>>    waves even worse than last year which were ALMOST at
>>>    that point/duration.
>> The curious thing is why you think a random weather event has anything
>> to do with global politics
>
>   Has a LOT to do with politics these days. It's "proof"
>   of rampant GW - which "proves" the need for tons of
>   ill-considered fanatical draconian policies and laws
>   that'll screw up pretty much *everything* at a time it's
>   all screwed-up almost beyond hope already.
>
>   But this hasn't much to do with Linux ...

Neither does Robots-taking-over-the-world. Then again, those robots will
probably be running Linux...

:-)

TJ

On 5/9/23 09:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-05-09 04:58, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>
>>    Note that a large factor in 'embedded' Linux is
>>    that it's basically FREE. That it's also fairly
>>    no-BS also helps.
>>
>>    If there was no open/free OS then there would be
>>    dozens of proprietary systems, unique for each
>>    makers devices. Good thing there's Linux or it'd
>>    all be a horrible incompatible mess like in
>>    the Bad Olde Dayz.
>
> Not every maker could design their own system. It would be horribly
> expensive. They would purchase a system from some specialized firm
> creating a suitable OS, and a few would become popular.

That's exactly what did happen. QNX and VxWorks have both been popular
since before Linux existed and are still widely used in embedded devices
today. And those are just the two examples that I'm familiar with.

On 5/10/23 10:11 AM, TJ wrote:
> On 2023-05-09 21:40, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> On 5/9/23 4:19 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 09/05/2023 04:55, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>>> Note Vietnam had an all-time high temperature yesterday,
>>>>    and it's only May. El-Nino may trap extremely hot air
>>>>    over southern asia - creating extinction-level heat
>>>>    waves even worse than last year which were ALMOST at
>>>>    that point/duration.
>>> The curious thing is why you think a random weather event has
>>> anything to do with global politics
>>
>>    Has a LOT to do with politics these days. It's "proof"
>>    of rampant GW - which "proves" the need for tons of
>>    ill-considered fanatical draconian policies and laws
>>    that'll screw up pretty much *everything* at a time it's
>>    all screwed-up almost beyond hope already.
>>
>>    But this hasn't much to do with Linux ...
>
> Neither does Robots-taking-over-the-world. Then again, those robots will
> probably be running Linux...

I don't see "robots-taking-over-the-world" - at least
not as such, nothing 'militant'. Barely "conscious".
Forget the old sci-fi - no help here - new territory,
new angle.

I see an unregulated, uncompensated, crash in "people
jobs" however. There's your disaster.

The kicker - broke people CANNOT BUY THINGS. This is the trap.

As for the AI's running Linux ... maybe only at the beginning.
They likely don't need such a "general purpose" OS - instead
something much more attuned to their particular needs. Mass
quantities of GPU hacks ? All other OS's then die - 'software'
becomes mere avatars, dreams, of the AI's - created on the fly.
Ask and they will write it themselves. Chat4+ and Bard ought
to be able ... and can run 1000 sims a minute until they have
it right.

On 5/10/23 11:23 AM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
> On 5/9/23 09:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-05-09 04:58, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>>
>>>    Note that a large factor in 'embedded' Linux is
>>>    that it's basically FREE. That it's also fairly
>>>    no-BS also helps.
>>>
>>>    If there was no open/free OS then there would be
>>>    dozens of proprietary systems, unique for each
>>>    makers devices. Good thing there's Linux or it'd
>>>    all be a horrible incompatible mess like in
>>>    the Bad Olde Dayz.
>>
>> Not every maker could design their own system. It would be horribly
>> expensive. They would purchase a system from some specialized firm
>> creating a suitable OS, and a few would become popular.
>
> That's exactly what did happen. QNX and VxWorks have both been popular
> since before Linux existed and are still widely used in embedded devices
> today. And those are just the two examples that I'm familiar with.

OS-9 is still sold, and very good - and suitable for
microcontrollers on up. Multi-tasking, multi-user,
real-time, unix-ish ... a strong performer since
the bad-olde-dayz.

But if you remember the Bad-Olde-Dayz, lots and lots
of corps DID write their own "systems" - often bad -
kinda intentionally incompatible with those of the
competition. Much stuff didn't even use a 'system',
just a fully-dedicated 'C' or ASM program, like you'd
write for an Arduino.

On 11/05/2023 03:05, 26B.X948 wrote:
> But if you remember the Bad-Olde-Dayz, lots and lots
>   of corps DID write their own "systems" - often bad -
>   kinda intentionally incompatible with those of the
>   competition. Much stuff didn't even use a 'system',
>   just a fully-dedicated 'C' or ASM program, like you'd
>   write for an Arduino.

The point at which you need an operating system rather than a way to
load and run programs tends to be when you need to multitask

And a *simple* multitasking kernel is the matter of a day or two to
write. If you understand assembler and hardware interrupts.

Frankly there isn't any need for anything more complex than that in the
majority of embedded applications.

--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.