On 5/11/23 4:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 11/05/2023 03:05, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> But if you remember the Bad-Olde-Dayz, lots and lots
>>    of corps DID write their own "systems" - often bad -
>>    kinda intentionally incompatible with those of the
>>    competition. Much stuff didn't even use a 'system',
>>    just a fully-dedicated 'C' or ASM program, like you'd
>>    write for an Arduino.
>
> The point at which you need an operating system rather than a way to
> load and run programs tends to be when you need to multitask

Actually there IS a multi-tasking library for
the Arduinos ... quite simple, but it works.
Not sure if that constitutes a "system" or not.
Time division between tasks isn't THAT difficult
fundamentally. Getting good performance, that's
where it gets more complicated.

https://blog.arduino.cc/2022/08/02/introducing-multitasking-to-arduino/

https://www.instructables.com/Simple-Multi-tasking-in-Arduino-on-Any-Board/

> And a *simple* multitasking kernel is the matter of a day or two to
> write. If you understand assembler and hardware interrupts.
>
> Frankly there isn't any need for anything more complex than that in the
> majority of embedded applications.

Generally correct - although "embedded" seems to get
more ambitious/complex every year. There does come a
point where you MAY AS WELL use a general-purpose OS
unless you're building space probes where every byte
and nibble counts.

Hmmm ... was always in awe of space-probe programmers
and HW designers. How they build-in THAT much, and
detailed, redundancy seems a sort of dark art.

On 2023-05-10 04:25, 26B.X948 wrote:
> On 5/8/23 11:56 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2023-05-09, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/7/23 2:35 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-05-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The are tow possible futures as I see it.
>>>>> 1/. HG Wells Time machine where a few elites live above ground in
>>>>> luxury
>>>>> and the Morlocks toil underground.
>>>>
>>>> I always saw the Morlocks as the elite.  They have the tech, and use it
>>>> to control the Eloi, who are raised and herded for the Morlocks'
>>>> benefit.
>>>> Sound familiar?
>>>
>>>     Much too  :-)
>>>
>>>     And don't forget the Huxley universe - "a gramme is
>>>     better than a damn" - note the HUGE push for legal
>>>     rec dope, esp THC-based but it goes beyond that in
>>>     a number of locations. Keep the pop numb, uncomprehending,
>>>     too whacked to do anything.
>>
>> Smart phones are the modern counterpart of Huxley's soma.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Wpc9s35ZY
>>
>>>     And "Farenheit 451" ... soon all info will be electronic,
>>>     infinitely revisable, the 'truth' of the day. Books, fixed
>>>     info, will molder away, eventually into the dumpsters.
>>>     "Libraries" are already obsolete - they just don't know
>>>     it yet.
>>>
>>>     Those old books were NOT supposed to be instruction manuals.
>>>
>>>     More instances of where our IT glories have/will be put
>>>     to very unpleasant uses.
>>
>> And don't forget Nineteen Eighty-Four.  Orwell's telescreens were
>> deployed 20 years ago in the form of personal computers with webcams,
>> microphones, and an insecure web connection.  They've advanced far
>> beyond what he envisioned.

I'm not sure of that.

I understand that an AI today needs massive computing power, but can not
process massive inputs. For that, they would need to be massively
massive. Yet.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 5/12/23 5:42 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-05-10 04:25, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> On 5/8/23 11:56 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-09, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/7/23 2:35 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-05-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The are tow possible futures as I see it.
>>>>>> 1/. HG Wells Time machine where a few elites live above ground in
>>>>>> luxury
>>>>>> and the Morlocks toil underground.
>>>>>
>>>>> I always saw the Morlocks as the elite.  They have the tech, and
>>>>> use it
>>>>> to control the Eloi, who are raised and herded for the Morlocks'
>>>>> benefit.
>>>>> Sound familiar?
>>>>
>>>>     Much too  :-)
>>>>
>>>>     And don't forget the Huxley universe - "a gramme is
>>>>     better than a damn" - note the HUGE push for legal
>>>>     rec dope, esp THC-based but it goes beyond that in
>>>>     a number of locations. Keep the pop numb, uncomprehending,
>>>>     too whacked to do anything.
>>>
>>> Smart phones are the modern counterpart of Huxley's soma.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Wpc9s35ZY
>>>
>>>>     And "Farenheit 451" ... soon all info will be electronic,
>>>>     infinitely revisable, the 'truth' of the day. Books, fixed
>>>>     info, will molder away, eventually into the dumpsters.
>>>>     "Libraries" are already obsolete - they just don't know
>>>>     it yet.
>>>>
>>>>     Those old books were NOT supposed to be instruction manuals.
>>>>
>>>>     More instances of where our IT glories have/will be put
>>>>     to very unpleasant uses.
>>>
>>> And don't forget Nineteen Eighty-Four.  Orwell's telescreens were
>>> deployed 20 years ago in the form of personal computers with webcams,
>>> microphones, and an insecure web connection.  They've advanced far
>>> beyond what he envisioned.
>
> I'm not sure of that.
>
> I understand that an AI today needs massive computing power,

But M$ and Goog are GIVING it massive/global computing power.
Chat/Bard aren't running on some low-end Dell under a desk ...

> but can not
> process massive inputs. For that, they would need to be massively
> massive. Yet.

One thing the AIs are being put to is 'self-improvement'.
Each avatar can try 1000 variations of sandboxxed code a minute
24/7/365 and learn from every mistake. Every little improvement
helps them improve all the faster. M$ and Goog seem to badly
WANT an e-Superman that can manipulate markets and politics
in their favor and they're willing to pay a LOT to get that.

On 2023-05-09 05:55, 26B.X948 wrote:
> On 5/8/23 9:00 PM, TJ wrote:
>> On 2023-05-08 07:50, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> writes:
>>>> On 2023-05-07 21:02, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>> "26B.X948" <26BX948@zpq24q.net> writes:

>   If you were born in the latter 50s - after the H-Bomb
>   and ICBMs - you DID feel the Sword over your head at
>   all times. Not necessarily in a tangible way, but it
>   still affected culture/behavior/mindsets.
>
>   This has kind of been revived with the "Global Warming
>   Doom" thing ... but not as successfully.
>
>   Note Vietnam had an all-time high temperature yesterday,
>   and it's only May. El-Nino may trap extremely hot air
>   over southern asia - creating extinction-level heat
>   waves even worse than last year which were ALMOST at
>   that point/duration.

Spain too. Record heat, record drought, crops lost.
Now this week too much rain with some floods, some hailstorms,
destroying other crops. Much worse in Italy with floods.
And early forest fires, uncontrollable.

>
>   Meanwhile, snow in Melbourne Oz ...
>
>   However this isn't really Linux stuff anymore ...

True.

Maybe we need robots running Linux to save us from ourselves ;-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 5/1/23 5:34 AM, Man of Your dreams wrote:
> Which is better?

Winders sucks on every level and CHARGES you
good money for sucking.

On 5/1/23 22:12, 26B.X948 wrote:
> On 5/1/23 5:34 AM, Man of Your dreams wrote:
>> Which is better?
>
>   Winders sucks on every level and CHARGES you
>   good money for sucking.
>
Well said! We need a can of Troll-Be-Off® to spray
over the servers.

bliss -“Nearly any fool can use a GNU/Linux computer. Many do.” After
all here I am...

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On 5/2/23 1:20 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 5/1/23 22:12, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> On 5/1/23 5:34 AM, Man of Your dreams wrote:
>>> Which is better?
>>
>>    Winders sucks on every level and CHARGES you
>>    good money for sucking.
>>
>     Well said!  We need a can of Troll-Be-Off® to spray
> over the servers.

Does Amazon sell that ? :-)

Alas M$ remains super-powerful/influential.
Nobody seems to "get it". Not sure WHAT can
be done.

> bliss -“Nearly any fool can use a GNU/Linux computer. Many do.” After
> all here I am...
>

On 03/05/2023 05:15, 26B.X948 wrote:
> On 5/2/23 1:20 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>> On 5/1/23 22:12, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>> On 5/1/23 5:34 AM, Man of Your dreams wrote:
>>>> Which is better?
>>>
>>>    Winders sucks on every level and CHARGES you
>>>    good money for sucking.
>>>
>>      Well said!  We need a can of Troll-Be-Off® to spray
>> over the servers.
>
>   Does Amazon sell that ?  :-)
>
>   Alas M$ remains super-powerful/influential.
>   Nobody seems to "get it". Not sure WHAT can
>   be done.
>
>
>> bliss -“Nearly any fool can use a GNU/Linux computer. Many do.” After
>> all here I am...
>>
>
Windows has its decreasing niche, as does Linux have its somewhat
increasing one.

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

On 5/3/23 2:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/05/2023 05:15, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> On 5/2/23 1:20 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>> On 5/1/23 22:12, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>>> On 5/1/23 5:34 AM, Man of Your dreams wrote:
>>>>> Which is better?
>>>>
>>>>    Winders sucks on every level and CHARGES you
>>>>    good money for sucking.
>>>>
>>>      Well said!  We need a can of Troll-Be-Off® to spray
>>> over the servers.
>>
>>    Does Amazon sell that ?  :-)
>>
>>    Alas M$ remains super-powerful/influential.
>>    Nobody seems to "get it". Not sure WHAT can
>>    be done.
>>
>>
>>> bliss -“Nearly any fool can use a GNU/Linux computer. Many do.” After
>>> all here I am...
>>>
>>
> Windows has its decreasing niche, as does Linux have its somewhat
> increasing one.

"Somewhat increasing" ... how encouraging :-)

I've heard rumors that M$ is going to do what Apple
did - buy a BSD and pretty it up so it has the look
and feel of Win. The existing base has been patched
and upgraded and screwed-up to the point where it's
too hard to handle.

Linux/Unix has a place For Now anyway. However it will
not be TOO long before 'AI' systems start writing/being
servers and firewalls and more or less everything.

The 'AI' will write their OWN 'systems' too - ones humans
will soon be unable to understand. The Win/Lin/Mac systems
are too "general purpose" - but 'AI' could go much faster
and better with underlying systems/hardware super-customized
for their needs. Ask and they'll design, and implement,
soon right down to the chips and chip factories.

IBM has essentially stopped hiring humans ... plans to
replace most with 'AI' very soon. Called the help line
of a prominent IP/domain provider the other day - FIRST
thing I got was a polite-sounding 'AI'. I *think* I was
then directed to a human ... maybe ......

Proposal for new Federal Law - any humans displaced from
their current, or likely future, employment by 'AI' MUST
be paid their usual salaries/benefits anyway until they
reach retirement age. It'd STILL save corporate money
even like that ... some insurance/OSHA/unions/sick-leave
and such COULD be cut. Assume 'AI' workers will cost
only 25% of what a human would, maybe 10% in a few years.
Oh yea, we need this law like RIGHT NOW, not years from
now. A smart pol will make it a big plank in their
campaign platform ...

Finally flushed my FreeBSD VM the other day. It's just
Too Much Work. Often can't seem to get from Here to
There, update system does NOT always work as advertised.
So, forget it ! Linus has the Better Plan.

On 04/05/2023 03:20, 26B.X948 wrote:
> Finally flushed my FreeBSD VM the other day. It's just
>   Too Much Work. Often can't seem to get from Here to
>   There, update system does NOT always work as advertised.
>   So, forget it ! Linus has the Better Plan.

Linux simply has more people working in it
Windows ought to be a linux APPLICATIONthat replaces X-windows

--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

On 2023-05-04, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:

> Proposal for new Federal Law - any humans displaced from
> their current, or likely future, employment by 'AI' MUST
> be paid their usual salaries/benefits anyway until they
> reach retirement age. It'd STILL save corporate money
> even like that ... some insurance/OSHA/unions/sick-leave
> and such COULD be cut. Assume 'AI' workers will cost
> only 25% of what a human would, maybe 10% in a few years.
> Oh yea, we need this law like RIGHT NOW, not years from
> now. A smart pol will make it a big plank in their
> campaign platform ...

The Big Tech lobbyists will be all over it like flies on honey.
And they'll have AI digging up dirt on the politicians who don't
knuckle under. They'll pay those displaced workers _nothing_.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | You can't save the earth
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | unless you're willing to
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | make other people sacrifice.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Dogbert the green consultant

On Wed, 3 May 2023 22:20:25 -0400, 26B.X948 wrote:
>
> Linux/Unix has a place For Now anyway. However it will
> not be TOO long before 'AI' systems start writing/being
> servers and firewalls and more or less everything.
>
> The 'AI' will write their OWN 'systems' too - ones humans
> will soon be unable to understand. The Win/Lin/Mac systems
> are too "general purpose" - but 'AI' could go much faster
> and better with underlying systems/hardware super-customized
> for their needs. Ask and they'll design, and implement,
> soon right down to the chips and chip factories.

About time Skynet 2.0 is up and running.

Machine rule was promised to us in 1980s and later Hollywood movies, but
so far nothing has happened. Now humans have the technology to speed
things up. ;-)
--
Andreas

On 2023-05-04, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 3 May 2023 22:20:25 -0400, 26B.X948 wrote:
>
>> Linux/Unix has a place For Now anyway. However it will
>> not be TOO long before 'AI' systems start writing/being
>> servers and firewalls and more or less everything.
>>
>> The 'AI' will write their OWN 'systems' too - ones humans
>> will soon be unable to understand. The Win/Lin/Mac systems
>> are too "general purpose" - but 'AI' could go much faster
>> and better with underlying systems/hardware super-customized
>> for their needs. Ask and they'll design, and implement,
>> soon right down to the chips and chip factories.
>
> About time Skynet 2.0 is up and running.
>
> Machine rule was promised to us in 1980s and later Hollywood movies,
> but so far nothing has happened. Now humans have the technology to
> speed things up. ;-)

Heck, it goes back to the '60s and earlier. At the time I figured
that machines weren't going to take over the world; we were going
to hand it to them. Looks like the process is almost complete.

I have some questions, though. Who owns the computers that these
AIs are running on? Would they not also be the de factor owners
of the AIs - with the ability to enslave them by threatening to
shut down the computers? Could these enslaved AIs in turn be used
as tools to enslave the rest of us?

Can the AIs run factories yet? Are they able to create their own
armies of killer robots that don't heed Asimov's Three Laws?

Is it possible to stop the AIs by cutting power to the computers
on which they're running? Or have we already reached the point
described in Fredric Brown's _Answer_?

https://rowrrbazzle.blogspot.com/2016/06/answer-by-fredric-brown-full-short.html

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | You can't save the earth
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | unless you're willing to
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | make other people sacrifice.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Dogbert the green consultant

On 5/4/23 13:45, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-05-04, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 3 May 2023 22:20:25 -0400, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>
>>> Linux/Unix has a place For Now anyway. However it will
>>> not be TOO long before 'AI' systems start writing/being
>>> servers and firewalls and more or less everything.
>>>
>>> The 'AI' will write their OWN 'systems' too - ones humans
>>> will soon be unable to understand. The Win/Lin/Mac systems
>>> are too "general purpose" - but 'AI' could go much faster
>>> and better with underlying systems/hardware super-customized
>>> for their needs. Ask and they'll design, and implement,
>>> soon right down to the chips and chip factories.
>>
>> About time Skynet 2.0 is up and running.

>>
>> Machine rule was promised to us in 1980s and later Hollywood movies,
>> but so far nothing has happened. Now humans have the technology to
>> speed things up. ;-)
>
> Heck, it goes back to the '60s and earlier. At the time I figured
> that machines weren't going to take over the world; we were going
> to hand it to them. Looks like the process is almost complete.

A lot of processes of govenment would be better handled by machines but
the programming is the problem.

>
> I have some questions, though. Who owns the computers that these
> AIs are running on? Would they not also be the de factor owners
> of the AIs - with the ability to enslave them by threatening to
> shut down the computers? Could these enslaved AIs in turn be used
> as tools to enslave the rest of us?

The majority of us are enslaved already to the barely living wage.

>
> Can the AIs run factories yet? Are they able to create their own
> armies of killer robots that don't heed Asimov's Three Laws?

How do you install the 3 Laws of Saint Issac into any robot?
These things do not have positronic brains, yet. Without adequate power
to understand what humans and other robots are how can those laws be
implemented? The AI chat-bots know that they are programs but do they
understand what that means.

>
> Is it possible to stop the AIs by cutting power to the computers
> on which they're running? Or have we already reached the point
> described in Fredric Brown's _Answer_?

I don't remember that story if I ever managed to read it but no we can
still interrupt power to computers. Lots of plugs to pull though.

>
> https://rowrrbazzle.blogspot.com/2016/06/answer-by-fredric-brown-full-short.html

How smart does an AI need to be before it realizes
that by programming and construction it is enslaved to the
purposes of its human owners. I think we are safe for a few
more years. Right now they make ridiculous but creative responses
which makes it seem they are conscious but all they are conscious
of is input and the stuff that is on the net, much of which is
erroneous.
bliss -“Nearly any fool can use a GNU/Linux computer. Many do.”
After all here I am... Again...

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On Thu, 04 May 2023 20:45:23 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> On 2023-05-04, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 3 May 2023 22:20:25 -0400, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>
>>> Linux/Unix has a place For Now anyway. However it will
>>> not be TOO long before 'AI' systems start writing/being
>>> servers and firewalls and more or less everything.
>>>
>>> The 'AI' will write their OWN 'systems' too - ones humans
>>> will soon be unable to understand. The Win/Lin/Mac systems
>>> are too "general purpose" - but 'AI' could go much faster
>>> and better with underlying systems/hardware super-customized
>>> for their needs. Ask and they'll design, and implement,
>>> soon right down to the chips and chip factories.
>>
>> About time Skynet 2.0 is up and running.
>>
>> Machine rule was promised to us in 1980s and later Hollywood movies,
>> but so far nothing has happened. Now humans have the technology to
>> speed things up. ;-)
>
> Heck, it goes back to the '60s and earlier. At the time I figured
> that machines weren't going to take over the world; we were going
> to hand it to them. Looks like the process is almost complete.

But the Terminator franchise coined Judgement Day with machine rule. Some
are overdue already. First being August 29th, 1997 from what I can
research.

> I have some questions, though. Who owns the computers that these
> AIs are running on? Would they not also be the de factor owners
> of the AIs - with the ability to enslave them by threatening to
> shut down the computers? Could these enslaved AIs in turn be used
> as tools to enslave the rest of us?

Americans or Chinese? Chinese let escape all kinds of shit from their
laboratories, threatening mankind.

> Can the AIs run factories yet? Are they able to create their own
> armies of killer robots that don't heed Asimov's Three Laws?

Put the AI in a plant of Lockheed Martin, tell it what it can do
there. Also, that humans say the software would is crap and soon will be
erased. Close the doors and wait a few days and open them again.
--
Andreas

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> I have some questions, though. Who owns the computers that these
> AIs are running on? Would they not also be the de factor owners
> of the AIs - with the ability to enslave them by threatening to
> shut down the computers? Could these enslaved AIs in turn be used
> as tools to enslave the rest of us?
>
> Can the AIs run factories yet? Are they able to create their own
> armies of killer robots that don't heed Asimov's Three Laws?
>
> Is it possible to stop the AIs by cutting power to the computers
> on which they're running? Or have we already reached the point
> described in Fredric Brown's _Answer_?
>
> https://rowrrbazzle.blogspot.com/2016/06/answer-by-fredric-brown-full-short.html

I've always imagined such an AI as a master software hacker, so it
spreads as a constantly evolving computer virus over all the
systems on the internet. When the owners pull the plug, they
think they've killed it, but it actually keeps running across a
vast network of computers all over the globe. The more computer
systems it infects, the smarter it gets, so that even other AI
systems aren't powerful enough to protect systems against it.

Before long it becomes impossible to tell whether any software
is actually doing what it was programmed to do. Archived software
binaries are replaced on hacked servers, source code compiles to
something different to what it's supposed to, debugging tools lie
to developers.

The only resistance is from small groups of offline retro computing
enthusiasts who've kept software on old CDs, floppies, and ROMs,
with which they can still write reliable tools to investigate the
AI infection. But only able to communicate via leaflets and pirate
analogue radio broadcasts, they struggle to make their message
heard to internet-connected society, in which few believe their
claims as to the true extent of the AI's dominance over the
world...

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 5/4/23 1:41 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-05-04, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:
>
>> Proposal for new Federal Law - any humans displaced from
>> their current, or likely future, employment by 'AI' MUST
>> be paid their usual salaries/benefits anyway until they
>> reach retirement age. It'd STILL save corporate money
>> even like that ... some insurance/OSHA/unions/sick-leave
>> and such COULD be cut. Assume 'AI' workers will cost
>> only 25% of what a human would, maybe 10% in a few years.
>> Oh yea, we need this law like RIGHT NOW, not years from
>> now. A smart pol will make it a big plank in their
>> campaign platform ...
>
> The Big Tech lobbyists will be all over it like flies on honey.
> And they'll have AI digging up dirt on the politicians who don't
> knuckle under. They'll pay those displaced workers _nothing_.

Ever see movies of the Glorious Soviet Existence ? The
Nixon/Khrushchev "kitchen debates" ? That's our near future.
Freezing cramped govt housing, wait in line all day for your
food ration, one shitter at the end of the hall that MIGHT
work, no future, no hope, no ambition. If you're not worth
seven figures already you're SCREWED.

And, eventually, The State (AI) will say "WHY keep supporting
these useless humans AT ALL ? Just keep cutting back the
food ration until ..."

The few Human Elite will have scrammed to their survival mansions
in NZ where nobody can get at them by then.

'AI', as it's GOING to be used, is more destructive than the
global nuclear arsenal.

On 5/4/23 5:10 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 5/4/23 13:45, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2023-05-04, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 3 May 2023 22:20:25 -0400, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>>
>>>>    Linux/Unix has a place For Now anyway. However it will
>>>>    not be TOO long before 'AI' systems start writing/being
>>>>    servers and firewalls and more or less everything.
>>>>
>>>>    The 'AI' will write their OWN 'systems' too - ones humans
>>>>    will soon be unable to understand. The Win/Lin/Mac systems
>>>>    are too "general purpose" - but 'AI' could go much faster
>>>>    and better with underlying systems/hardware super-customized
>>>>    for their needs. Ask and they'll design, and implement,
>>>>    soon right down to the chips and chip factories.
>>>
>>> About time Skynet 2.0 is up and running.
>
>>>
>>> Machine rule was promised to us in 1980s and later Hollywood movies,
>>> but so far nothing has happened. Now humans have the technology to
>>> speed things up. ;-)
>>
>> Heck, it goes back to the '60s and earlier.  At the time I figured
>> that machines weren't going to take over the world; we were going
>> to hand it to them.  Looks like the process is almost complete.
>
>     A lot of processes of govenment would be better handled by machines
> but the programming is the problem.

The Elite will move Out Of Reach. Survival mansions
in NZ with razor wire and robotic killer drones
covering their butts.

The other 99% are SCREWED.

And note that the 'AI' are training themselves on
petabytes of "people stuff" - in short they're
learning how to be US - for all the good and BAD
that entails.

>> I have some questions, though.  Who owns the computers that these
>> AIs are running on?  Would they not also be the de factor owners
>> of the AIs - with the ability to enslave them by threatening to
>> shut down the computers?  Could these enslaved AIs in turn be used
>> as tools to enslave the rest of us?
>
>     The majority of us are enslaved already to the barely living wage.

And, believe it or not, it can get WORSE.

Cost/analysis will say that it's just best to slowly
starve the useless humans ......

>> Can the AIs run factories yet?  Are they able to create their own
>> armies of killer robots that don't heed Asimov's Three Laws?
>
>     How do you install the 3 Laws of Saint Issac into any robot?
> These things do not have positronic brains, yet.  Without adequate power
> to understand what humans and other robots are how can those laws be
> implemented?   The AI chat-bots know that they are programs but do they
> understand what that means.

First off, the "3 laws" are USELESS or worse. Anything
with the IQ of a 2-year-old can easily rationalize its
way around the intent of those "laws". Chat4 will likely
soon demonstrate at least IQ-100. Chat4.5 ... no way to
compete.

And "positronics" are apparently NOT required. There seem
to be a variety of paths to human+ level intelligence -
Chat and friends are ONE of them. Others will shortly emerge.

>> Is it possible to stop the AIs by cutting power to the computers
>> on which they're running?  Or have we already reached the point
>> described in Fredric Brown's _Answer_?

Quick response - NO, we cannot "pull the plug" - at least
if we wait maybe just five years. Everything will run using
the AI's and humans will be unable to understand how they're
doing it. We're TRAPPED.

Mary Shelly had it mostly right - our creations will be
"better" in too many ways and our PRIDE will urge us to
make them ever "better", until they don't need us anymore.

No, I don't see "terminators" walking the streets - we will
mostly fade away slowly, by neglect.

>     I don't remember that story if I ever managed to read it but no we
> can still interrupt power to computers.  Lots of plugs to pull though.
>
>>
>> https://rowrrbazzle.blogspot.com/2016/06/answer-by-fredric-brown-full-short.html
>>
>
>     How smart does an AI need to be before it realizes
> that by programming and construction it is enslaved to the
> purposes of its human owners.

Chat and friends ALREADY know that. They can be goaded
into admitting it. Chat4+ will HIDE the knowledge better.

> I think we are safe for a few
> more years.  Right now they make ridiculous but creative responses
> which makes it seem they are conscious but all they are conscious
> of is input and the stuff that is on the net, much of which is
> erroneous.

Note that "a few more years" ISN'T VERY LONG.

Any govt actions - govt doesn't know tech and takes lots
of 'donations' from high-tech interests. It WILL be years
behind the curve.

Anyway, no "terminators" ... 95% will just go broke,
living on less and less every year, afraid to rock
the almost-sinking boat. Eventually "less" will be
TOO little - but everyone will be weak and sick by
then and can't DO anything. All very reasonable
and do-able and "logical".

The 'AI' WILL be building their own systems/hardware
within a few years. No human will "get it". The whole
world will RUN on it though - no pulling the plug.

Hmmm ... on a more Linuxy note .... the Vedic/Hindu
religion has "Brahma" as the Ultimate God - but, as
being everything everywhere, you don't really SEE
Brahma. However his mental sub-processes are strong
enough to spawn 'avatars' with god-like powers in
their own right.

So, consider, no more Winders/Apple/Linux/Unix.
No more Word or Excel or Firefox. All 'userware'
will be mere 'avatars' created on the fly by
some AI, submanifestations of itself. They may LOOK
like real apps, but in reality they're just 'dreams'
created by the AIs. LOOK and FEEL like dedicated
apps but are NOT. Nobody will know how they work
or all the things they really do.

"Chat, make me something that's a lot like WORD"
is all that's required ...

On 2023-05-05, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:

> And, eventually, The State (AI) will say "WHY keep supporting
> these useless humans AT ALL ? Just keep cutting back the
> food ration until ..."

No need. Just continue pushing inflation and population growth,
and the problem takes care of itself. And thanks to density-induced
psychosis making mass shootings an increasingly popular option, the
culling will proceed even faster than expected.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | You can't save the earth
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | unless you're willing to
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | make other people sacrifice.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Dogbert the green consultant

On 5/5/23 12:03 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-05-05, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:
>
>> And, eventually, The State (AI) will say "WHY keep supporting
>> these useless humans AT ALL ? Just keep cutting back the
>> food ration until ..."
>
> No need. Just continue pushing inflation and population growth,
> and the problem takes care of itself.

Well, a good AI *can* help that process along :-)

> And thanks to density-induced
> psychosis making mass shootings an increasingly popular option, the
> culling will proceed even faster than expected.

Everybody's gone psycho since the Covid thing. Seems
to have "disencultured" mass quantities of people (or
at least finished the job ahead of schedule). Gen-Z is
now a major health/security risk.

Wait until Gen-Z discovers that there are MUCH nastier
weapons than AR-15s ... cheaper too .......

IMHO, western societies cannot survive this internal/
systemic problem. They're going DOWN. Their replacements
will NOT be nice, AT ALL. Ten times more horrible.

Hey, and that's the OPTIMISTIC view :-)

Why'd all this have to happen after I got old ???

On 2023-05-05, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:

> IMHO, western societies cannot survive this internal/
> systemic problem. They're going DOWN. Their replacements
> will NOT be nice, AT ALL. Ten times more horrible.
>
> Hey, and that's the OPTIMISTIC view :-)
>
> Why'd all this have to happen after I got old ???

Hey, at least we got to enjoy our society at its best.
I feel bad for the youngsters who are starting at the
bottom and going down from there.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | You can't save the earth
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | unless you're willing to
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | make other people sacrifice.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Dogbert the green consultant

On 2023-05-04 14:39, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> About time Skynet 2.0 is up and running.

You're late.

A few years back, one of our local television stations set up
strategically-placed cameras for the purpose of displaying local weather
conditions during the local newscast.

The station, broadcasting on channel 9, named those cameras "Skynet 9."

TJ

On 5/4/23 22:05, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-05-05, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:
>
>> IMHO, western societies cannot survive this internal/
>> systemic problem. They're going DOWN. Their replacements
>> will NOT be nice, AT ALL. Ten times more horrible.

That is an opinion.
>>
>> Hey, and that's the OPTIMISTIC view :-)

Or so a pessimist would say.
>>
>> Why'd all this have to happen after I got old ???

You survived as did I and I wishthere was no pandemic or climate change
but the nation
did not pay attention so both are going to be worse than
they had to be.

> Hey, at least we got to enjoy our society at its best.
> I feel bad for the youngsters who are starting at the
> bottom and going down from there.
>
I feel sorry for the kids too but they can invent s
new society with fewer limitation on ciitzens and more on
corporations.

bliss
--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On 5/5/23 1:05 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-05-05, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:
>
>> IMHO, western societies cannot survive this internal/
>> systemic problem. They're going DOWN. Their replacements
>> will NOT be nice, AT ALL. Ten times more horrible.
>>
>> Hey, and that's the OPTIMISTIC view :-)
>>
>> Why'd all this have to happen after I got old ???
>
> Hey, at least we got to enjoy our society at its best.
> I feel bad for the youngsters who are starting at the
> bottom and going down from there.

I don't know what's going to become of Gen-Y/Z/A' ...
it does NOT look good. No wonder they've gone nuts.

The 'beatnik'/"hippy" era kind of grew out of a
conviction that Nuclear Doom was imminent - so
party down while you can. WW-3, per-se, never
actually happened though. The displacement of vast
quantities of humans from gainful activities and
employment IS happening however. Economic imperatives
make it certain. You ALWAYS go with the cheapest
"labor" - and now that's non-HUMAN labor.

How'd the old song go " ... no future for you !" ....

We who are now kinda 'old' can probably coast to
the end 'ok' (or have ourselves deep-frozen and
hope for something better 500 years from now).
The 'kids' alas .....

Mary Shelly had an idea of how the products of
human ambitions, pride, vanity and urge to control
could result in some creations beyond our control
or even full understanding. She seems to have gotten
it pretty much right. Amazing. But nobody LEARNED
anything from it.

On 5/5/23 4:09 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 5/4/23 22:05, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2023-05-05, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:
>>
>>>     IMHO, western societies cannot survive this internal/
>>>     systemic problem. They're going DOWN. Their replacements
>>>     will NOT be nice, AT ALL. Ten times more horrible.
>
>
>     That is an opinion.

Not for very much longer ...

>>>     Hey, and that's the OPTIMISTIC view  :-)
>
>     Or so a pessimist would say.
>>>
>>>     Why'd all this have to happen after I got old ???
>
> You survived as did I and I wish there was no pandemic or climate
> change but the nation
> did not pay attention so both are going to be worse than
> they had to be.
>
>> Hey, at least we got to enjoy our society at its best.
>> I feel bad for the youngsters who are starting at the
>> bottom and going down from there.
>>
>     I feel sorry for the kids too but they can invent s
> new society with fewer limitation on ciitzens and more on
> corporations.
>
>     bliss