In message <uv06pm$3c264$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:36:22 on Mon, 8 Apr
2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 08/04/2024 07:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <uumdom$mv72$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:33:58 on Thu, 4 Apr
>>2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 04/04/2024 08:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>>> On the most fundamental level, the NHS doesn't deliver chemotherapy
>>>>at  home, so there's always lots of travel to and from the hospital
>>>>(or in  rare cases a community clinic). Not just to have the
>>>>treatment, but  typically two days before to have a blood test to
>>>>see if their immune  system is not quite entirely wiped out by the
>>>>earlier treatments.
>>>
>>> I had chemo at home for the first year.

>> That's interesting, when we investigated hospice at home it faltered
>>because the District Nurses weren't expected to do drips.
>> Did they take blood tests at home, too?
>
>I am on injections, not infusions, which made life a lot simpler.

Eventually you can get a syringe-driver fitted to a permanent 'port',
which has the same effect as an infusion. And then district nurses can
change the syringe.

>Blood tests they only did once every six months at the hospital.

I'm surprised it was that infrequent. Everyone I know had them one a
month, to make sure they were still OK to carry on the treatment.

>The home nurse was actually supplied by the drug manufacturer as they
>conducting trials with the hospital and university.

Right, so hardly a typical situation, then! (And it wasn't really "the
NHS" giving the treatment at home). Oncology appointments by phone,
presumably?
--
Roland Perry

On 08/04/2024 11:37, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <uv06pm$3c264$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:36:22 on Mon, 8 Apr
> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 08/04/2024 07:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <uumdom$mv72$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:33:58 on Thu, 4 Apr
>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 04/04/2024 08:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On the most fundamental level, the NHS doesn't deliver chemotherapy
>>>>> at  home, so there's always lots of travel to and from the hospital
>>>>> (or in  rare cases a community clinic). Not just to have the
>>>>> treatment, but  typically two days before to have a blood test to
>>>>> see  if their immune  system is not quite entirely wiped out by the
>>>>> earlier treatments.
>>>>
>>>> I had chemo at home for the first year.
>
>>>  That's interesting, when we investigated hospice at home it faltered
>>> because the District Nurses weren't expected to do drips.
>>>  Did they take blood tests at home, too?
>>
>> I am on injections, not infusions, which made life a lot simpler.
>
> Eventually you can get a syringe-driver fitted to a permanent 'port',
> which has the same effect as an infusion. And then district nurses can
> change the syringe.
>
>> Blood tests they only did once every six months at the hospital.
>
> I'm surprised it was that infrequent. Everyone I know had them one a
> month, to make sure they were still OK to carry on the treatment.

Fortunately for me, mine is not an aggressive cancer.

>
>> The home nurse was actually supplied by the drug manufacturer as they
>> conducting trials with the hospital and university.
>
> Right, so hardly a typical situation, then! (And it wasn't really "the
> NHS" giving the treatment at home). Oncology appointments by phone,
> presumably?

Mostly.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 11:30:07 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <uv07rs$3ce7k$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:54:36 on Mon, 8 Apr
>2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>The difference in price between foot and car passengers on ferries should
>>disabuse them of that notion. Now sure why anyone thinks that 1.5 tons of
>>car should get a free ride.
>
>"To get traffic off the roads". But it doesn't scale. One train full of
>cars represents about ten seconds of traffic on the M1.

Well obviously it wouldn't be to get traffic off the roads, it would be for
people who can afford to pay to take their car long distance without having
the bother of driving it. In the UK it probably isn't viable anyway. By the
time you've driven to an appropriate loading station and waited probably for
hours while the grunts pull their fingers out their arses you could be halfway
to scotland by road before the train has even moved.

By for long distance in europe I reckon there would be a market as as Rolf
has said, there are some services IIRC from austria to italy or something like
that.

>>True, but a lot of that happens regardless of whether you drive it on holiday
>>or not so its not a direct cost.
>
>Depreciation is very firmly mileage-dependent.
>
>Practical example: my friend's BMW is about ten years old and because
>it's low mileage it's worth more than twice as much [as an average
>mileage car]. Which is about 10p/mile. A newer car and it can easily be
>25p/mile. Then tyres at �600 a set is around 2p/mile. Other
>mileage-related costs are replacing brake pad/discs and cambelts.

Old car depreciation is very different to new car. A new car loses about 10%
of its value the moment the keys are handed over then about another 20-40%
in the first year regardless of how many miles its done.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 11:30:07 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uv07rs$3ce7k$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:54:36 on Mon, 8 Apr
>> 2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> The difference in price between foot and car passengers on ferries should
>>> disabuse them of that notion. Now sure why anyone thinks that 1.5 tons of
>>> car should get a free ride.
>>
>> "To get traffic off the roads". But it doesn't scale. One train full of
>> cars represents about ten seconds of traffic on the M1.
>
> Well obviously it wouldn't be to get traffic off the roads, it would be for
> people who can afford to pay to take their car long distance without having
> the bother of driving it. In the UK it probably isn't viable anyway. By the
> time you've driven to an appropriate loading station and waited probably for
> hours while the grunts pull their fingers out their arses you could be halfway
> to scotland by road before the train has even moved.

It used to exist here, until privatisation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorail_(British_Rail)

>
> By for long distance in europe I reckon there would be a market as as Rolf
> has said, there are some services IIRC from austria to italy or something like
> that.

There are a number of base tunnel motor rail services in Switzerland.

On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 15:11:27 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 11:30:07 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uv07rs$3ce7k$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:54:36 on Mon, 8 Apr
>>> 2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> The difference in price between foot and car passengers on ferries should
>>>> disabuse them of that notion. Now sure why anyone thinks that 1.5 tons of
>>>> car should get a free ride.
>>>
>>> "To get traffic off the roads". But it doesn't scale. One train full of
>>> cars represents about ten seconds of traffic on the M1.
>>
>> Well obviously it wouldn't be to get traffic off the roads, it would be for
>> people who can afford to pay to take their car long distance without having
>> the bother of driving it. In the UK it probably isn't viable anyway. By the
>> time you've driven to an appropriate loading station and waited probably for
>> hours while the grunts pull their fingers out their arses you could be
>halfway
>> to scotland by road before the train has even moved.
>
>It used to exist here, until privatisation:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorail_(British_Rail)

I know , but back in the 70s it was a flip of a coin whether even your brand
new motor would get you say from london to scotland without breaking down.
These days you can drive a car 100K+ miles before any major failure occurs so
long as its properly maintained.

>> By for long distance in europe I reckon there would be a market as as Rolf
>> has said, there are some services IIRC from austria to italy or something
>like
>> that.
>
>There are a number of base tunnel motor rail services in Switzerland.

Makes sense. Driving through the alps is probably a long slog though I'd still
like to do it one day.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

> It used to exist here, until privatisation:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorail_(British_Rail)
>
As that article confirms..
First Great Western reintroduced a service to Penzance from Paddington with
the car vehicles attached to the Rivera Sleeper . from 1999 to 2005 so they
gave it a fair shot.

We have yet to see if the aspirations of government to see the majority of
cars becoming electric
are realised and a charging network to support them. Most people with
access to a home charger can probably live with the ranges now being
achieved for day to day driving and a not to far away day out. But
Southern England to say the Lake District and beyond or down to the
SouthWest and finding you may have to wait for a charger en route to go
further adds an air of uncertainty.
Perhaps the Motor Rail concept could find a market there, possibly with
some means of charging
the cars on board so they have full range from the railhead.

GH

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uv06pm$3c264$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:36:22 on Mon, 8 Apr
> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 08/04/2024 07:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <uumdom$mv72$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:33:58 on Thu, 4 Apr
>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 04/04/2024 08:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On the most fundamental level, the NHS doesn't deliver chemotherapy
>>>>> at  home, so there's always lots of travel to and from the hospital
>>>>> (or in  rare cases a community clinic). Not just to have the
>>>>> treatment, but  typically two days before to have a blood test to
>>>>> see if their immune  system is not quite entirely wiped out by the
>>>>> earlier treatments.
>>>>
>>>> I had chemo at home for the first year.
>
>>> That's interesting, when we investigated hospice at home it faltered
>>> because the District Nurses weren't expected to do drips.
>>> Did they take blood tests at home, too?
>>
>> I am on injections, not infusions, which made life a lot simpler.
>
> Eventually you can get a syringe-driver fitted to a permanent 'port',
> which has the same effect as an infusion. And then district nurses can
> change the syringe.
>
>> Blood tests they only did once every six months at the hospital.
>
> I'm surprised it was that infrequent. Everyone I know had them one a
> month, to make sure they were still OK to carry on the treatment.
>
>> The home nurse was actually supplied by the drug manufacturer as they
>> conducting trials with the hospital and university.
>
> Right, so hardly a typical situation, then! (And it wasn't really "the
> NHS" giving the treatment at home). Oncology appointments by phone,
> presumably?

https://www.christie.nhs.uk/patients-and-visitors/visiting-the-christie/our-treatment-centres/the-christie-at-home

https://www.southtees.nhs.uk/news/patients-self-administer-chemo-from-comfort-of-their-home/

https://www.clatterbridgecc.nhs.uk/about-us/news/chemotherapy-treatment-home-gets-even-closer-north-liverpool-patients

https://www.northerncarealliance.nhs.uk/news/nca-news/royal-oldham-hospital-launches-chemotherapy-home-service?q=%2Fnews%2Fnca-news%2Froyal-oldham-hospital-launches-chemotherapy-home-service

On 08/04/2024 17:59, Marland wrote:
> We have yet to see if the aspirations of government to see the majority of
> cars becoming electric
> are realised and a charging network to support them.

I thought all the reports suggest that interest in changing to a Battery
Vehicle has been dropping.

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 08/04/2024 17:59, Marland wrote:
>> We have yet to see if the aspirations of government to see the majority of
>> cars becoming electric
>> are realised and a charging network to support them.
>
>
>
> I thought all the reports suggest that interest in changing to a Battery
> Vehicle has been dropping.
>

Sales have dropped, maybe the early adopters for whom the motive to try
something different
outweighed the cost have now all got them.
I would have no objection to having an EV as the second car as the existing
one rarely goes more than 20 to 50 miles so range would be no problem. But
the 2nd car is a 15 year old granny mobile Toyota Aygo inherited from my
mother that does near 60mpg on petrol ,£20 year VED and is simple enough I
can still service it and replace some components like a water pump or
suspension components and isn’t showing any signs of potential MOT failure
problems so far.
A second hand electric is going to have to be fairly cheap to buy to
dislodge that and the market hasn’t been going long enough for such cars
to available.
The nearest is possibly some Nissan Micras.
Its fairly easy to tell if a Petrol car still has some life in it or even
allow for some new components but replacement battery for an EV is going
to be expensive.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 08/04/2024 17:59, Marland wrote:
>>> We have yet to see if the aspirations of government to see the majority of
>>> cars becoming electric
>>> are realised and a charging network to support them.
>>
>>
>>
>> I thought all the reports suggest that interest in changing to a Battery
>> Vehicle has been dropping.
>>
>
> Sales have dropped, maybe the early adopters for whom the motive to try
> something different
> outweighed the cost have now all got them.
> I would have no objection to having an EV as the second car as the existing
> one rarely goes more than 20 to 50 miles so range would be no problem. But
> the 2nd car is a 15 year old granny mobile Toyota Aygo inherited from my
> mother that does near 60mpg on petrol ,£20 year VED and is simple enough I
> can still service it and replace some components like a water pump or
> suspension components and isn’t showing any signs of potential MOT failure
> problems so far.
> A second hand electric is going to have to be fairly cheap to buy to
> dislodge that and the market hasn’t been going long enough for such cars
> to available.
> The nearest is possibly some Nissan Micras.
> Its fairly easy to tell if a Petrol car still has some life in it or even
> allow for some new components but replacement battery for an EV is going
> to be expensive.

EVs are still much more expensive to make than ICE cars. In the early days,
governments provided a substantial subsidy and tax benefits to cover the
gap. The subsidies have now mostly gone, but tax perks remain, particularly
for company cars. So, private buyers have been dwindling, while company car
sales remain strong.

But the initial depreciation is very steep: a new BEV might be 30% more
expensive to buy than the equivalent ICE vehicle, but after three or four
years, the second-hand market will value them equally. So the first owner
or leasing company takes an unusually big hit.

There's also the concern about what happens after the battery range drops
too low after, say, about ten years. The car might be then worth less than
a fitted replacement battery, leading to a very low residual value or even
an early write-off.

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 13.03.2024 08:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <usq0a5$clmd$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:36:20 on Tue, 12 Mar
>> 2024, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 12.03.2024 16:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <usplpt$a748$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:37:01 on Tue, 12 Mar
>>>> 2024, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 12.03.2024 13:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <usp56u$6nt8$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:49 on Tue, 12
>>>>>> Mar  2024, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Frankly, there is no reason civil partnerships should have ever
>>>>>>> existed, and there is no reason they should have continued to
>>>>>>> exist after full equal marriage was finally established. In law,
>>>>>>> there is so  little meaningful difference between a civil
>>>>>>> partnership and marriage  as to not make any difference at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That being said, the fact that sufficient number of MPs 20 years
>>>>>>> ago  felt that the difference in language/cultural
>>>>>>> history/semantics was  so  important that they would no support
>>>>>>> marriage equality but would  support the creation of civil
>>>>>>> partnership
>>>>
>>>>>>  Not just those MPs, but the Church of England. People had waited
>>>>>> long  enough to be able to get some sort of legal equality, and the
>>>>>> civil  partnership was that vehicle.
>>>>>
>>>>> The objection from the Church of England stems from the fact that,
>>>>> as  the legally established church, any couple who could legally be
>>>>> married had the right for that marriage to be conducted in a CofE
>>>>> church (if they lived in England or Wales). A straightforward
>>>>> extension of marrage to same-sex couples as it existed at the time
>>>>> would have compelled the CofE to therefore conduct same-sex
>>>>> marriages.  Somehow that problem was solved in 2013 in a way that
>>>>> politicians a  decade earlier felt impossible to achieve.
>>>>  Public opinion, and that of the clergy (even Popes), evolves over time.
>>>
>>> As does the relevance of organised religion. Actual attendance at
>>> churches of all denominations have been dropping for decades, with
>>> CofE weekly attendance down well below the 1 million mark some time
>>> before COVID, and showing signs that recovery will be to below-trend
>>> based on the pre-COVID trajectory. Other denominations are not faring
>>> any better in other European countries, and even the peculiarly
>>> religious US is seeing a sustained decline in congregation sizes.
>>>
>>>> The spotlight seems to have moved on, to trans-gender issues more
>>>> recently.
>>>
>>> The spotlight has moved on to trans-women. I see practically nothing
>>> in the ususal sources of moral outrage that seems to be particularly
>>> interested in trans-men.
>>
>> So what? The former is most certainly a "trans gender issue". Eventually
>> we might get trans men also deciding they are being conspired against,
>> but it hasn't happened yet. And maybe there aren't as many of them, but
>> I don't have any statistics off the cuff.
>
> I think it is important to be accurate in discussing these things, and
> there is a very obvious difference in how the anti-trans discourse
> treats trans-men and trans-women.

In part because ecause there is a measured higher risk of violence from
biologically male persons than from the biologically female.

>>> I would have thought people with a genuine concern about safe spaces
>>> for women would be more concerned about the presence there of someone
>>> with a testosterone-enhanced masculine physique who identifies as male
>>> being forced against their wishes into such a space, which is the
>>> logical end result of the anti-trans rhetoric, but of course the real
>>> intention is to persecute trans people, not to provide a safe space
>>> for women (cis or trans).
>>
>> I could be wrong, but isn't some of the controversy a fear that some
>> trans women are in fact predatory heterosexual males who are faking it
>> just so they get the key to the door of the women's changing room?
>
> That is the narative that is being presented by anti-trans people. There
> is no actual evidence of this being a real, rather than invented issue.
> Given the level of attention this "concern" gets, if there existed
> evidence of such events, either statistical or based on recorded events,
> those pressing this narrative would be pushing that evidence hard in
> their publicity about the topic. The fact that they are not presenting
> any strongly suggests that they have none.

Isla Bryson, Tiffany Scott.

> The kinds of arguments being made are based on the same level of
> evidence and same basic prejudice as was used in the '80s and '90s to
> assert that the presence of sexually predatory gay men meant that all
> gay men should be barred from any job that involved contact with
> children or vulnerable people. It too was a complete nonsense, and when
> laws and societal views changed to accept gay men as being safe to work
> in such jobs, no measurable change in the instances of actual crimes
> associated with the claimed risks were observed.
>
> In my time in education, two members of staff at schools I attended
> subsequently ended up with convictions of sexual crimes against
> children. I am aware of at least 3 gay male teachers who worked at
> schools I attended. There is zero overlap between the two groups.

There was one conviction of a teacher at the boys’ grammar school I
attended. The trial was after my time, though the teacher was present
while I was there. I don’t know if the man concerned self identified as
straight, gay or bi, though bi would have been pretty much unknown as a
category in that time, and to have identified as gay would have been highly
prejudicial to his career.

Sam

--
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Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 20/03/2024 10:17, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 10:54:38 +0100
>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>> Am 19.03.2024 um 18:29 schrieb John Levine:
>>>> An ox and a steer are the same thing, depending on whether
>>>> you intend for it to pull a cart or to be dinner.
>>>
>>> Funnily, the German word "Stier" means "bull", not "steer".
>>
>> Unfortunately English has far too many words with muliple meanings. IIRC the
>> worst offender is "set".
>>
>> eg:
>> set of clubs
>> badger set
>> set up
>> sun has set
>> set in stone
>> set sail
>>
>> Probably loads more.
>
> I believe "set" has 26 headings in the full OED, more than any other
> word.

Is that the full set?

Sam

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Spit the dummy to reply

On 27 Apr 2024 at 10:42:16, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 20/03/2024 10:17, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 10:54:38 +0100
>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>> Am 19.03.2024 um 18:29 schrieb John Levine:
>>>>> An ox and a steer are the same thing, depending on whether
>>>>> you intend for it to pull a cart or to be dinner.
>>>>
>>>> Funnily, the German word "Stier" means "bull", not "steer".
>>>
>>> Unfortunately English has far too many words with muliple meanings. IIRC the
>>> worst offender is "set".
>>>
>>> eg:
>>> set of clubs
>>> badger set

Shouldn't that be 'sett'?

>>> set up
>>> sun has set
>>> set in stone
>>> set sail
>>>
>>> Probably loads more.
>>
>> I believe "set" has 26 headings in the full OED, more than any other
>> word.
>
> Is that the full set?
>
> Sam

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <utjd0a$2ptnf$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:19 on Fri, 22 Mar
> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>> On 21/03/2024 20:23, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> The standard flavour of reported cases seems to be that if your
>>> dashcam records the emergency vehicle's presence then you are on safe
>>> ground. In other cases the prosecution has even gone to the length of
>>> contacting the relevant emergency service first before bringing
>>> charges if there was no relevant vehicle known to be present.
>>
>> In the case that was reported some years ago, it was an unmarked police
>> car travelling on blues.
>
> <Thread convergence> The document about ambulances posted recently says
> travelling in blues isn't allowed (although it appears to be tolerated)
> and only sirens should be used.

Round here ambulances in a hurry travel on blues all the time and only use
audible warnings (at least two different kinds) when there’s traffic in
their way.

Sam

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Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 02/04/2024 02:28, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> Are footballers a more, or less, urgent patient, according to your world
>>> view? Anyway, given the degree of ultra-pedantry on display in this
>>> thread, they could be a footballer who was simply spending the morning
>>> at the funfair.
>>>
>> In this case your footballer is a red herring.
>
> And eaten up by a fox when no one was looking?

The lazy dog may have looked, but got jumped over anyway.

Sam

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On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 19:06:35 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <utjd0a$2ptnf$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:19 on Fri, 22 Mar
>> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>> On 21/03/2024 20:23, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> The standard flavour of reported cases seems to be that if your
>>>> dashcam records the emergency vehicle's presence then you are on safe
>>>> ground. In other cases the prosecution has even gone to the length of
>>>> contacting the relevant emergency service first before bringing
>>>> charges if there was no relevant vehicle known to be present.
>>>
>>> In the case that was reported some years ago, it was an unmarked police
>>> car travelling on blues.
>>
>> <Thread convergence> The document about ambulances posted recently says
>> travelling in blues isn't allowed (although it appears to be tolerated)
>> and only sirens should be used.
>
>Round here ambulances in a hurry travel on blues all the time and only use
>audible warnings (at least two different kinds) when there’s traffic in
>their way.
>
More or less what the LAS (or substitute) does on the way umpteen
times a day to my local hospital with different tones for "watch out,
we're coming" versus "get out of the way" and sometimes a bull horn
for "get out of the effing way".

In message <hsct2j5lqut6hmahlc8gaikjmrtpo4d1h6@4ax.com>, at 21:43:48 on
Sun, 28 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 19:06:35 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <utjd0a$2ptnf$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:19 on Fri, 22 Mar
>>> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>>> On 21/03/2024 20:23, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>> The standard flavour of reported cases seems to be that if your
>>>>> dashcam records the emergency vehicle's presence then you are on safe
>>>>> ground. In other cases the prosecution has even gone to the length of
>>>>> contacting the relevant emergency service first before bringing
>>>>> charges if there was no relevant vehicle known to be present.
>>>>
>>>> In the case that was reported some years ago, it was an unmarked police
>>>> car travelling on blues.
>>>
>>> <Thread convergence> The document about ambulances posted recently says
>>> travelling in blues isn't allowed (although it appears to be tolerated)
>>> and only sirens should be used.
>>
>>Round here ambulances in a hurry travel on blues all the time and only use
>>audible warnings (at least two different kinds) when there’s traffic in
>>their way.
>>
>More or less what the LAS (or substitute) does on the way umpteen
>times a day to my local hospital with different tones for "watch out,
>we're coming" versus "get out of the way" and sometimes a bull horn
>for "get out of the effing way".

Bullhorns are unusual on Ambulances, more of a Fire Engine thing.

As I've reported here before, unmarked police(?) cars with blue lights
behind the radiator grille are more common these days, and unlike
ambulances they seem quite relaxed about driving down the wrong side of
the road where such lights are more visible than when stuck in a queue
of traffic.
--
Roland Perry

In message <v0m6nr$178o6$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:06:35 on Sun, 28 Apr
2024, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <utjd0a$2ptnf$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:19 on Fri, 22 Mar
>> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>> On 21/03/2024 20:23, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> The standard flavour of reported cases seems to be that if your
>>>> dashcam records the emergency vehicle's presence then you are on safe
>>>> ground. In other cases the prosecution has even gone to the length of
>>>> contacting the relevant emergency service first before bringing
>>>> charges if there was no relevant vehicle known to be present.
>>>
>>> In the case that was reported some years ago, it was an unmarked police
>>> car travelling on blues.
>>
>> <Thread convergence> The document about ambulances posted recently says
>> travelling in blues isn't allowed (although it appears to be tolerated)
>> and only sirens should be used.
>
>Round here ambulances in a hurry travel on blues all the time and only use
>audible warnings (at least two different kinds) when there’s traffic in
>their way.

Custom and practice is probably regional (and may not always follow the
law as such). Lights-only is effective only within, erm, line of sight.
Which with busy roads and urban landscapes isn't very far.

I frequently hear sirens a couple of blocks away, and rarely see the
vehicle to which they are attached. The lights are useful when the
vehicle is at the side of the road attending to an incident, though.
--
Roland Perry

On 28/04/2024 20:06, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <utjd0a$2ptnf$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:19 on Fri, 22 Mar
>> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>> On 21/03/2024 20:23, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> The standard flavour of reported cases seems to be that if your
>>>> dashcam records the emergency vehicle's presence then you are on safe
>>>> ground. In other cases the prosecution has even gone to the length of
>>>> contacting the relevant emergency service first before bringing
>>>> charges if there was no relevant vehicle known to be present.
>>>
>>> In the case that was reported some years ago, it was an unmarked police
>>> car travelling on blues.
>>
>> <Thread convergence> The document about ambulances posted recently says
>> travelling in blues isn't allowed (although it appears to be tolerated)
>> and only sirens should be used.
>
> Round here ambulances in a hurry travel on blues all the time and only use
> audible warnings (at least two different kinds) when there’s traffic in
> their way.

Same here, and whilst I don't doubt that document was official, I could
not see a reference to regulations for travelling in blues (and there were
references for other restrictions).

On 29/04/2024 09:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> Bullhorns are unusual on Ambulances, more of a Fire Engine thing.

AIUI the electronic box fitted to generate the various sirens is
standard on all emergency vehicles.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <v0m6nr$178o6$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:06:35 on Sun, 28 Apr
> 2024, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <utjd0a$2ptnf$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:19 on Fri, 22 Mar
>>> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>>> On 21/03/2024 20:23, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>> The standard flavour of reported cases seems to be that if your
>>>>> dashcam records the emergency vehicle's presence then you are on safe
>>>>> ground. In other cases the prosecution has even gone to the length of
>>>>> contacting the relevant emergency service first before bringing
>>>>> charges if there was no relevant vehicle known to be present.
>>>>
>>>> In the case that was reported some years ago, it was an unmarked police
>>>> car travelling on blues.
>>>
>>> <Thread convergence> The document about ambulances posted recently says
>>> travelling in blues isn't allowed (although it appears to be tolerated)
>>> and only sirens should be used.
>>
>>Round here ambulances in a hurry travel on blues all the time and only use
>>audible warnings (at least two different kinds) when there’s traffic in
>>their way.

> Custom and practice is probably regional (and may not always follow the
> law as such). Lights-only is effective only within, erm, line of sight.
> Which with busy roads and urban landscapes isn't very far.

But if they don't have to pass traffic jams and red traffic lights...

Regards, ULF

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <hsct2j5lqut6hmahlc8gaikjmrtpo4d1h6@4ax.com>, at 21:43:48 on
> Sun, 28 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>>On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 19:06:35 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <utjd0a$2ptnf$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:19 on Fri, 22 Mar
>>>> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>>>> On 21/03/2024 20:23, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>> The standard flavour of reported cases seems to be that if your
>>>>>> dashcam records the emergency vehicle's presence then you are on safe
>>>>>> ground. In other cases the prosecution has even gone to the length of
>>>>>> contacting the relevant emergency service first before bringing
>>>>>> charges if there was no relevant vehicle known to be present.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case that was reported some years ago, it was an unmarked police
>>>>> car travelling on blues.
>>>>
>>>> <Thread convergence> The document about ambulances posted recently says
>>>> travelling in blues isn't allowed (although it appears to be tolerated)
>>>> and only sirens should be used.
>>>
>>>Round here ambulances in a hurry travel on blues all the time and only use
>>>audible warnings (at least two different kinds) when there’s traffic in
>>>their way.
>>>
>>More or less what the LAS (or substitute) does on the way umpteen
>>times a day to my local hospital with different tones for "watch out,
>>we're coming" versus "get out of the way" and sometimes a bull horn
>>for "get out of the effing way".

> Bullhorns are unusual on Ambulances, more of a Fire Engine thing.

> As I've reported here before, unmarked police(?) cars with blue lights
> behind the radiator grille are more common these days, and unlike
> ambulances they seem quite relaxed about driving down the wrong side of
> the road where such lights are more visible than when stuck in a queue
> of traffic.

They might add one more blue light on the roof when needed.

Regards, ULF

Graeme Wall wrote:

> On 29/04/2024 09:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Bullhorns are unusual on Ambulances, more of a Fire Engine thing.

> AIUI the electronic box fitted to generate the various sirens is
> standard on all emergency vehicles.

Maybe depening on the country? In France,
an ambulance siren is quite different from
a police one.

Regards, ULF

On 29/04/2024 10:13, ulf_kutzner wrote:
> Graeme Wall wrote:
>
>> On 29/04/2024 09:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Bullhorns are unusual on Ambulances, more of a Fire Engine thing.
>
>> AIUI the electronic box fitted to generate the various sirens is
>> standard on all emergency vehicles.
>
> Maybe depening on the country? In France,
> an ambulance siren is quite different from
> a police one.
>

Purely referring to UK practice.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 29 Apr 2024 09:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <hsct2j5lqut6hmahlc8gaikjmrtpo4d1h6@4ax.com>, at 21:43:48 on
> Sun, 28 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>>On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 19:06:35 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <utjd0a$2ptnf$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:19 on Fri, 22 Mar
>>>> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>>>> On 21/03/2024 20:23, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>> The standard flavour of reported cases seems to be that if your
>>>>>> dashcam records the emergency vehicle's presence then you are on safe
>>>>>> ground. In other cases the prosecution has even gone to the length of
>>>>>> contacting the relevant emergency service first before bringing
>>>>>> charges if there was no relevant vehicle known to be present.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case that was reported some years ago, it was an unmarked police
>>>>> car travelling on blues.
>>>>
>>>> <Thread convergence> The document about ambulances posted recently says
>>>> travelling in blues isn't allowed (although it appears to be tolerated)
>>>> and only sirens should be used.
>>>
>>>Round here ambulances in a hurry travel on blues all the time and
only use
>>>audible warnings (at least two different kinds) when there's traffic
in
>>>their way.
>>>
>>More or less what the LAS (or substitute) does on the way umpteen
>>times a day to my local hospital with different tones for "watch out,
>>we're coming" versus "get out of the way" and sometimes a bull horn
>>for "get out of the effing way".
>
> Bullhorns are unusual on Ambulances, more of a Fire Engine thing.

Cite?

> As I've reported here before, unmarked police(?) cars with blue lights
> behind the radiator grille are more common these days, and unlike
> ambulances they seem quite relaxed about driving down the wrong side of
> the road where such lights are more visible than when stuck in a queue
> of traffic.

There are varying degrees of unliveried vehicles. Some will be
"unmarked" but still have obvious lights in the windows or behind the
grilles. And some will have "Police" on the back of the sun visor!

Some, others will be mostly covert but with "public warning
devices" to be used when they need them. These will be further back
behind the grille or otherwise less obvious. The B3-B5 VW Passats
didn't really have space behind the grille for lights so the covert
ones had to simply rely on "wig-wag" headlights, much as some
motorbikes in the same fleet had just a pulsing headlight.

The B6 Passats had a ring of LEDS for the brake lights so sometimes a
few would be replaced with blue LEDS for the rear facing lights.

NB Not all un-liveried vehicles are police. Many FRSs use unliveried
vehicles for senior operational staff so they can keep their vehicles
with them but still get to a "fireground" quickly.