Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 11:34:50 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>
>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>
I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
least.

Scott wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 11:34:50 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:

>>Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>
>>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>
> I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
> least.

Still in process?

Chinese production may pass - on Chinese vessels,
quite an interesting agreement between Houthi leaders
and other sides.

Regards, ULF

In message <28e84ff70516d8ffa54dadaccd80cc5c@www.novabbs.org>, at
12:01:53 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:

>>>Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>
>>>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>
>> I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
>> least.
>
>Still in process?

I've got some old Hornby models "Made in England" attributed to
Liverpool and Margate. And some Hornby track "Made in Austria". I
presume they are more valuable.
--
Roland Perry

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 11:34:50 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>
> I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
> least.
>

I think Airfix who are now part of the Hornby Portfolio started have some
items produced in the UK ,
however once a plastic kit has been designed it is mainly produced from
plastic moulding machines with some printed transfers which are easy and
quick to pack and then despatch.
The consumer does the work of assembling and painting the model to the
standard they are happy with or can achieve, a 10 year old will likely get
as much enjoyment with one that ends up not quite perfect as someone with
years of experience who assembles a pristine example with added details.

The Trains and Scalectrix items are different in that lots of fiddly small
parts plastic ,metal , motors ,gears ,circuit boards have to be assembled
into a whole by human hand and that is expensive, though Chinese wages have
been increasing they are still cheaper than what a UK worker would consider
doing the job for.

Humbrol paints also acquired when it an Airfix were acquired from a
bankrupt French company by Hornby have also largely returned to UK
production
Some say quality dropped at the time but that could be changes in how paint
is allowed to be made
and there was a hiccup when some products had to be withdrawn as they did
not comply.
Never the less there is a lot more competition in the model paint market
now and Humbrol now offers a reduced range of colours compared to a few
years back but they offer them in the older enamel style and acrylic.

GH

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <28e84ff70516d8ffa54dadaccd80cc5c@www.novabbs.org>, at
> 12:01:53 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>
>>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>>
>>> I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
>>> least.
>>
>> Still in process?
>
> I've got some old Hornby models "Made in England" attributed to
> Liverpool and Margate. And some Hornby track "Made in Austria". I
> presume they are more valuable.

Model railway production is never going to come back to the UK. The skills
no longer exist, never mind the problem of labour costs. A few wagons are
UK made by Dapol and Peco. Hornby own Airfix and some of that production is
being repatriated. However that’s largely pressing a button on an injection
moulding machine - a mould that has probably been manufactured in China.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <28e84ff70516d8ffa54dadaccd80cc5c@www.novabbs.org>, at
> 12:01:53 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>
>>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>>
>>> I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
>>> least.
>>
>> Still in process?
>
> I've got some old Hornby models "Made in England" attributed to
> Liverpool and Margate. And some Hornby track "Made in Austria". I
> presume they are more valuable.

Liverpool made would be the original Hornby which went bust in the early
sixties, if they are OO gauge then they would be the well known Hornby
Dublo but are they the older original O gauge system?

Margate was the home of Tri-ang Railways whose cheaper but more aimed at
fun for youngsters
products knocked the older staid Hornby “We own this market” off its
pedestal fatally.
Tri-angs owners acquired the remains of Hornby Dublo from the receivers
and incorporated some of the range with its own but not much but the brand
became Tri-ang Hornby.
Later the owners also hit financial troubles and the model train business
was sold off , With Hornby still being a more widely recognised name than
Tri-ang the business became just Hornby again and remains so a few owners
later, but the present day Hornby is really a continuation of Tri-ang not
the Hornby of old.

The track made in Austria was produced by them for by Roco a well known
brand on the Continent whose products are fairly well respected. Later
Hornby found they could get made cheaper in China.

As for value , Not really a lot for any of it unless you have something
rare and pristine and a box to match. There are tons of it out there as
people empty lofts of items which were put up there decades ago for
children and grandchildren to eventually play with without anticipating
that their interests would be in other directions. Ebay etc has meant those
Grandchildren now emptying deceased Grandads loft now can easily put them
on sale but get disappointed when Grandads cherished train set gets thirty
quid and not 100 or more . Pre ebay and the internet and the death of the
early boomers it was different ,nobody knew where the things were so the
odd collector would pay well for an item that turned up at an auction. Now
there will loads on ebay etc.

Hornby track you can barely give away especially the earlier nickel plated
steel version.
If yours iattracts a magnet just put it in the bin.

GH

In message <v08bd5$1klrn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:00:21 on Tue, 23 Apr
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <28e84ff70516d8ffa54dadaccd80cc5c@www.novabbs.org>, at
>> 12:01:53 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa
>>>>>00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>>>
>>>> I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
>>>> least.
>>>
>>> Still in process?
>>
>> I've got some old Hornby models "Made in England" attributed to
>> Liverpool and Margate. And some Hornby track "Made in Austria". I
>> presume they are more valuable.
>
>Model railway production is never going to come back to the UK.

So that makes the old ones I have even more valuable I expect.

--
Roland Perry

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Model railway production is never going to come back to the UK. The skills
> no longer exist, never mind the problem of labour costs. A few wagons are
> UK made by Dapol and Peco. Hornby own Airfix and some of that production is
> being repatriated. However that’s largely pressing a button on an injection
> moulding machine - a mould that has probably been manufactured in China.

Recently the Youtube autoplay lottery decided to start showing me model
railway review videos, something I know zero about. What I hadn't realised
is that model locomotives aren't just a big piece of plastic in an injection
moulding machine, but there is a lot of custom painting and secondary
assembly of tiny painted parts, that I assume can only be being done by
hand. There are different tiers based on how much detailing is
needed (eg Hornby Railroad is the cheaper, less detailed, end)

Also, the range that Hornby has is often based on tooling that may be
decades old. Presumably they retained the injection moulds for their back
catalogue and have them in an archive in the factory - when they want to
release a new loco edition (eg in a new livery) they can go into their back
catalogue and pull out the tooling for a previous edition.

This is from 2015, but indicates at that point the Chinese contract
manufacturer's parent was also the owner of Bachmann, ie Hornby's competitor.
Quite illuminating on the business politics of the manufacturing:
https://thebusinessofmodels.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/hornby-paid-0-5m-to-end-its-chinese-supplier-misery/

Theo

Theo wrote:

> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Model railway production is never going to come back to the UK. The skills
>> no longer exist, never mind the problem of labour costs. A few wagons are
>> UK made by Dapol and Peco. Hornby own Airfix and some of that production is
>> being repatriated. However that’s largely pressing a button on an injection
>> moulding machine - a mould that has probably been manufactured in China.

> Recently the Youtube autoplay lottery decided to start showing me model
> railway review videos, something I know zero about. What I hadn't realised
> is that model locomotives aren't just a big piece of plastic in an injection
> moulding machine, but there is a lot of custom painting and secondary
> assembly of tiny painted parts, that I assume can only be being done by
> hand. There are different tiers based on how much detailing is
> needed (eg Hornby Railroad is the cheaper, less detailed, end)

> Also, the range that Hornby has is often based on tooling that may be
> decades old. Presumably they retained the injection moulds for their back
> catalogue and have them in an archive in the factory - when they want to
> release a new loco edition (eg in a new livery) they can go into their back
> catalogue and pull out the tooling for a previous edition.

> This is from 2015, but indicates at that point the Chinese contract
> manufacturer's parent was also the owner of Bachmann, ie Hornby's competitor.
> Quite illuminating on the business politics of the manufacturing:
> https://thebusinessofmodels.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/hornby-paid-0-5m-to-end-its-chinese-supplier-misery/

I see.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader_Group#Model_Railways

Regards, ULF

On 23/04/2024 12:34, Recliner wrote:
> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>
>
I don't think it can have helped that many model prices seem to have
increased at way above the inflation rate in the last few years.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <28e84ff70516d8ffa54dadaccd80cc5c@www.novabbs.org>, at
>> 12:01:53 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>>>
>>>> I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
>>>> least.
>>>
>>> Still in process?
>>
>> I've got some old Hornby models "Made in England" attributed to
>> Liverpool and Margate. And some Hornby track "Made in Austria". I
>> presume they are more valuable.
>
> Model railway production is never going to come back to the UK. The skills
> no longer exist, never mind the problem of labour costs. A few wagons are
> UK made by Dapol and Peco. Hornby own Airfix and some of that production is
> being repatriated. However that’s largely pressing a button on an injection
> moulding machine - a mould that has probably been manufactured in China.

When my kids were teenagers some of them bought the same Airfix kits that I
had had 30-odd years before. The quality of the mouldings was terrible but
they were the same models that I had had. Obviously the moulds had had a
lot of use in the mean time.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <v08tuj$1p09r$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:16:49 on Tue, 23 Apr
2024, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>On 23/04/2024 12:34, Recliner wrote:
>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>
>>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b
>>?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>
>I don't think it can have helped that many model prices seem to have
>increased at way above the inflation rate in the last few years.

One of the reasons that good condition used models fetch good money is
the eye-watering price of brand new ones.

For example I've got a 30yr old almost mint Hornby 00 Flying Scotsman
which I think I could get up to £100 for (irrespective of any
vintage-ness it has), and a new one would be £200-£500, depending on how
limited-an-edition it was.
--
Roland Perry

On 24/04/2024 08:11, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <28e84ff70516d8ffa54dadaccd80cc5c@www.novabbs.org>, at
>>> 12:01:53 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>>>>
>>>>> I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
>>>>> least.
>>>>
>>>> Still in process?
>>>
>>> I've got some old Hornby models "Made in England" attributed to
>>> Liverpool and Margate. And some Hornby track "Made in Austria". I
>>> presume they are more valuable.
>>
>> Model railway production is never going to come back to the UK. The skills
>> no longer exist, never mind the problem of labour costs. A few wagons are
>> UK made by Dapol and Peco. Hornby own Airfix and some of that production is
>> being repatriated. However that’s largely pressing a button on an injection
>> moulding machine - a mould that has probably been manufactured in China.
>
> When my kids were teenagers some of them bought the same Airfix kits that I
> had had 30-odd years before. The quality of the mouldings was terrible but
> they were the same models that I had had. Obviously the moulds had had a
> lot of use in the mean time.
>

My granddaughter built an Airfix Spitfire, still the same model her
father built 30 years before and I built &* years before that!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <l8ps7dF5q4sU1@mid.individual.net>, at 13:43:09 on Tue, 23
Apr 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <28e84ff70516d8ffa54dadaccd80cc5c@www.novabbs.org>, at
>> 12:01:53 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa
>>>>>00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>>>
>>>> I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
>>>> least.
>>>
>>> Still in process?
>>
>> I've got some old Hornby models "Made in England" attributed to
>> Liverpool and Margate. And some Hornby track "Made in Austria". I
>> presume they are more valuable.
>
>Liverpool made would be the original Hornby which went bust in the early
>sixties, if they are OO gauge then they would be the well known Hornby
>Dublo but are they the older original O gauge system?

Dublo. Blue box, not the Margate red.

>Margate was the home of Tri-ang Railways whose cheaper but more aimed
>at fun for youngsters products knocked the older staid Hornby “We own
>this market” off its pedestal fatally.

>Tri-angs owners acquired the remains of Hornby Dublo from the receivers
>and incorporated some of the range with its own but not much but the brand
>became Tri-ang Hornby.

>Later the owners also hit financial troubles and the model train business
>was sold off , With Hornby still being a more widely recognised name than
>Tri-ang the business became just Hornby again and remains so a few owners
>later, but the present day Hornby is really a continuation of Tri-ang not
>the Hornby of old.
>
>The track made in Austria was produced by them for by Roco a well known
>brand on the Continent whose products are fairly well respected. Later
>Hornby found they could get made cheaper in China.
>
>As for value , Not really a lot for any of it unless you have something
>rare and pristine and a box to match. There are tons of it out there as
>people empty lofts of items which were put up there decades ago for
>children and grandchildren to eventually play with without anticipating
>that their interests would be in other directions.

There are indeed lots of "clearance" lots at knock-down prices, but the
general public doesn't have much access to that market.

>Ebay etc has meant those Grandchildren now emptying deceased Grandads
>loft now can easily put them on sale but get disappointed when Grandads
>cherished train set gets thirty quid and not 100 or more .

Becoming a part-time dealer and doing that is hard work. I think a lot
of the pricing issues are just as much to do with the poor presentation
of the items and lack of reputation of the seller.

>Pre ebay and the internet and the death of the early boomers it was
>different ,nobody knew where the things were so the odd collector would
>pay well for an item that turned up at an auction.

Another outlet is stalls at model train shows, and even dealers at
classic Antique Centres.

>Now there will loads on ebay etc.

Of doubtful condition most of the time. Especially locos which need to
be in full running order.

>Hornby track you can barely give away especially the earlier nickel plated
>steel version.

>If yours iattracts a magnet just put it in the bin.

The non-magnetic ones have a lower profile running rail.
--
Roland Perry

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <28e84ff70516d8ffa54dadaccd80cc5c@www.novabbs.org>, at
>>> 12:01:53 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>>>>
>>>>> I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
>>>>> least.
>>>>
>>>> Still in process?
>>>
>>> I've got some old Hornby models "Made in England" attributed to
>>> Liverpool and Margate. And some Hornby track "Made in Austria". I
>>> presume they are more valuable.
>>
>> Model railway production is never going to come back to the UK. The skills
>> no longer exist, never mind the problem of labour costs. A few wagons are
>> UK made by Dapol and Peco. Hornby own Airfix and some of that production is
>> being repatriated. However that’s largely pressing a button on an injection
>> moulding machine - a mould that has probably been manufactured in China.
>
> When my kids were teenagers some of them bought the same Airfix kits that I
> had had 30-odd years before. The quality of the mouldings was terrible but
> they were the same models that I had had. Obviously the moulds had had a
> lot of use in the mean time.
>
> Sam
>

Some for specifically model railway use , lines side buildings mainly but
some locos and rolling stock as well are made by the Welsh Firm Dapol who
purchased those moulds a long time ago.
They must be getting on for 70 years old If people watch the original
Thunderbirds series on TV its fun to see how often the components of the
girder bridge kit were used in the sets, the Andersons and Derek Meddings
*must have purchased hundreds of kits.

The locos date back to Kitmaster but not the whole range as many moulds
were damaged in storage way back when unfortunately that included the
coaches which it took the ready to run manufactures nearly 50 years to
reach in accuracy. Unmade ones though now 60 years old are sought after.,
recently Dapol have revived the Kitmaster brand for their productions.

*Derek Meddings was an expert model maker for many productions, many of
the James Bond
films feature his work.
Remember the Sovitised Class 20 done for one film?

There was a model as well. Photo down this page.
<http://007magazine.co.uk/factfiles/factfiles_trivia4.htm>

GH

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <l8ps7dF5q4sU1@mid.individual.net>, at 13:43:09 on Tue, 23
> Apr 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <28e84ff70516d8ffa54dadaccd80cc5c@www.novabbs.org>, at
>>> 12:01:53 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa
>>>>>> 00b?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>>>>
>>>>> I thought Hornby was returning production to the UK - or some at
>>>>> least.
>>>>
>>>> Still in process?
>>>
>>> I've got some old Hornby models "Made in England" attributed to
>>> Liverpool and Margate. And some Hornby track "Made in Austria". I
>>> presume they are more valuable.
>>
>> Liverpool made would be the original Hornby which went bust in the early
>> sixties, if they are OO gauge then they would be the well known Hornby
>> Dublo but are they the older original O gauge system?
>
> Dublo. Blue box, not the Margate red.

So then it could be the original 3 rail design or the later introduced too
late to save the company
2 rail. There was a trend for people to start building large Hornby Dublo
layouts like used to be seen on the front of a catalogue using the
original 3 rail tinplate track so a 3 rail example may sell easier.

>

>
>> Hornby track you can barely give away especially the earlier nickel plated
>> steel version.
>
>> If yours iattracts a magnet just put it in the bin.
>
> The non-magnetic ones have a lower profile running rail.

System six which adopted the code 100 std which is still the size in
current train sets
was produced in both, your Austrian produced track was system 6.

Smaller more accurate profiles are used by many modellers but produced by
3rd manufactures but
Hornby have to consider the robustness for the train set market and that
Dad might want to run his child hood engine with deeper flanges compared to
current production.

GH

ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
> I see.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader_Group#Model_Railways

This is funny:
https://uk.hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/locomotion-no-1-motion

Supposedly they were 'really happy' with the samples of the class 755
received from their OEM. But they then go on to produce a laundry list of
things wrong with them, including things like the pantograph being fitted
backwards. Doesn't exactly inspire quality...

(to be fair this is standard stuff when dealing with a Chinese contract OEM,
but something you tend not to air in public)

Theo

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <v08tuj$1p09r$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:16:49 on Tue, 23 Apr
> 2024, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On 23/04/2024 12:34, Recliner wrote:
>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b
>>> ?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>
>> I don't think it can have helped that many model prices seem to have
>> increased at way above the inflation rate in the last few years.
>
> One of the reasons that good condition used models fetch good money is
> the eye-watering price of brand new ones.
>
> For example I've got a 30yr old almost mint Hornby 00 Flying Scotsman
> which I think I could get up to £100 for (irrespective of any
> vintage-ness it has), and a new one would be £200-£500, depending on how
> limited-an-edition it was.

Flying Scotsman is one of the worst examples to think it has value , its
been produced in its thousands in various versions and has always been a
mainstay of the range, now if you had something rare like the AL1 AC
Electric that originated with Hornby Dublo and was one of those continued
by Tri-ang you might reach the figure you aspire to.

As for the cost of new the market moved away from Childrens trainsets
,they wanted games consoles, and became the haunt of middle aged men who
call themselves modellers but want something ready made in a box but would
complain if it depicted the shovel in the wrong place on a tuesday in 1965.
They often mentioned continental models were more accurate so the market
moved to accommodate them , it costs money to provide multiple detail
options and the result is too delicate to be sold to children and survive
so no sales that way.
Once the Chinese government decided its workers should have a few wage
increases the cost of these models has rocketed, the answer should be for
these “modellers” to get the tools out and do some modelling but most
can’t.
To be fair the rise of affordable for the small business and home
3d printiing is already making quite an impact for “real” modellers with
some cottage producers offering some good stuff.
This could well dent the ready to run market. That could mean the
collector style purchaser either pays the prices or Hornby goes out of
business and they have no supplier.

GH

Theo wrote:

> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>> I see.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader_Group#Model_Railways

> This is funny:
> https://uk.hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/locomotion-no-1-motion

> Supposedly they were 'really happy' with the samples of the class 755
> received from their OEM. But they then go on to produce a laundry list of
> things wrong with them, including things like the pantograph being fitted
> backwards. Doesn't exactly inspire quality...

> (to be fair this is standard stuff when dealing with a Chinese contract OEM,
> but something you tend not to air in public)

Developed in Hong Kong, developers being not quite familiar
with British locos...

Regards, ULF

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>> I see.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader_Group#Model_Railways
>
> This is funny:
> https://uk.hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/locomotion-no-1-motion
>
> Supposedly they were 'really happy' with the samples of the class 755
> received from their OEM. But they then go on to produce a laundry list of
> things wrong with them, including things like the pantograph being fitted
> backwards. Doesn't exactly inspire quality...
>
> (to be fair this is standard stuff when dealing with a Chinese contract OEM,
> but something you tend not to air in public)
>

Roland will be upset that the Black 5 doesn't have a name!

ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
> Theo wrote:
>
>> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>> I see.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader_Group#Model_Railways
>
>> This is funny:
>> https://uk.hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/locomotion-no-1-motion
>
>> Supposedly they were 'really happy' with the samples of the class 755
>> received from their OEM. But they then go on to produce a laundry list of
>> things wrong with them, including things like the pantograph being fitted
>> backwards. Doesn't exactly inspire quality...
>
>> (to be fair this is standard stuff when dealing with a Chinese contract OEM,
>> but something you tend not to air in public)
>
> Developed in Hong Kong, developers being not quite familiar
> with British locos...
>

That would be equally true of modern British developers, who were born long
after the thing they are modelling was in normal service. There have been a
couple of TV series here about Hornby, and each episode tends to feature
the development of a new model by a young developer. They are sent off with
camera, sound recorder and measuring tape to the appropriate museum or
heritage railway to take lots of photos and measurements that they then use
to produce a CAD design.

A lot of the skill they have to learn is which parts need to be made
thicker and stronger than their scaled size, and what level of detail is
too fine to reproduce. They also have to take into account that bends are
much tighter in model railway layouts than full scale railways, so the
couplings have to be longer and stronger than scale. The models may also
need to be made less accurate in order to accommodate the motor, speaker
and (if necessary) steam generator. Their experienced seniors will also
choose which specific example(s) of a class to model.

In message <l8s1krFfo0cU1@mid.individual.net>, at 09:27:55 on Wed, 24
Apr 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <v08tuj$1p09r$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:16:49 on Tue, 23 Apr
>> 2024, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On 23/04/2024 12:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b
>>>> ?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>>
>>> I don't think it can have helped that many model prices seem to have
>>> increased at way above the inflation rate in the last few years.
>>
>> One of the reasons that good condition used models fetch good money is
>> the eye-watering price of brand new ones.
>>
>> For example I've got a 30yr old almost mint Hornby 00 Flying Scotsman
>> which I think I could get up to £100 for (irrespective of any
>> vintage-ness it has), and a new one would be £200-£500, depending on how
>> limited-an-edition it was.
>
>Flying Scotsman is one of the worst examples to think it has value , its
>been produced in its thousands in various versions and has always been a
>mainstay of the range, now if you had something rare like the AL1 AC
>Electric that originated with Hornby Dublo and was one of those continued
>by Tri-ang you might reach the figure you aspire to.

Items sold on eBay, and at train fairs etc, are quite contrary to that
assertion.
--
Roland Perry

On 24/04/2024 08:54, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <v08tuj$1p09r$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:16:49 on Tue, 23 Apr
> 2024, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On 23/04/2024 12:34, Recliner wrote:
>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b
>>> ?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>
>> I don't think it can have helped that many model prices seem to have
>> increased at way above the inflation rate in the last few years.
>
> One of the reasons that good condition used models fetch good money is
> the eye-watering price of brand new ones.
>
> For example I've got a 30yr old almost mint Hornby 00 Flying Scotsman
> which I think I could get up to £100 for (irrespective of any
> vintage-ness it has), and a new one would be £200-£500, depending on how
> limited-an-edition it was.

And when new it was what ? About £30 to £50 ??

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <l8s1krFfo0cU1@mid.individual.net>, at 09:27:55 on Wed, 24
> Apr 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <v08tuj$1p09r$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:16:49 on Tue, 23 Apr
>>> 2024, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 23/04/2024 12:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Hornby sales suffer after Houthis hold up Red Sea freight
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/26e9a3aa-0fa6-4c31-838e-aae9ee3fa00b
>>>>> ?shareToken=5461f519387dafc87f3c44898002c01d
>>>>>
>>>> I don't think it can have helped that many model prices seem to have
>>>> increased at way above the inflation rate in the last few years.
>>>
>>> One of the reasons that good condition used models fetch good money is
>>> the eye-watering price of brand new ones.
>>>
>>> For example I've got a 30yr old almost mint Hornby 00 Flying Scotsman
>>> which I think I could get up to £100 for (irrespective of any
>>> vintage-ness it has), and a new one would be £200-£500, depending on how
>>> limited-an-edition it was.
>>
>> Flying Scotsman is one of the worst examples to think it has value , its
>> been produced in its thousands in various versions and has always been a
>> mainstay of the range, now if you had something rare like the AL1 AC
>> Electric that originated with Hornby Dublo and was one of those continued
>> by Tri-ang you might reach the figure you aspire to.
>
> Items sold on eBay, and at train fairs etc, are quite contrary to that
> assertion.

Sorry I just don’t believe you, there are about 750 Hornby Flying Scotsmen
on EBay at the the moment.
While there is the odd pristine or special edition being offered for 3
figures or over most especially the 30 year old ones have asking prices
from around £20.00 to £80.
The single Hornby Dublo AL1 I mentioned as a rare and potentially
valuable example is being offered at £450.00.
If you think your Flying Scotsman will fetch around £100 then best of luck
, let us know if you achieve it.

GH