Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uutl87$2m91p$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:24:39 on Sun, 7 Apr
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <uutg45$2l6j2$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:57:09 on Sun, 7 Apr
>>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <1nl31j5d18tehjjtat1g0dsbhsen69jga8@4ax.com>, at 00:13:30 on
>>>>>>> Sun, 7 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 18:09:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <udr21jhm12evn1193skus32d6mjs7uh2oa@4ax.com>, at 16:48:48 on
>>>>>>>>> Sat, 6 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 16:19:14 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 09:13:47 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no National Rail trains in and out of Euston today because of
>>>>>>>>>>>> ASLEF's suicidal strike action,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Er, yes there are.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, that seems to have been shunted into a siding until today.
>>>>>>>>>> Er, yes there were but only the DC line from 0918-1927
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which TOC?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers and London Overground.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers is the classic extreme corner case (is ASLEF
>>>>>>> striking in Scotland anyway), and London Overground doesn't count as
>>>>>>> "National Rail" in this instance. News reports mentioned the latter,
>>>>>>> but not the former.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why isn’t London Overground part of National Rail?
>>>>>
>>>>> Because it's a franchise of TfL, not the DfT.
>>>>
>>>> So that makes Merseyrail, TfW and Scotrail not part of National Rail
>>>> either?
>>>
>>> I'm not sure who lets the Merseyrail franchise - is it really the sole
>>> responsibility of the Mayor of Liverpool?
>>
>> It's not a franchise.
>>
>>>
>>> TfW and Scotrail report to National governments, just not the English
>>> one.
>>
>> So why is it different if the governing body for London (more population
>> than Scotland and Wales combined) lets the LO concession?
>>
>>
>
> Isn’t a better definition of National Rail services that run largely over
> track assets owned by Network Rail? I appreciate there may be some grey
> areas on the outer portions of the Underground.
>
> Lumo and the other open access operators aren’t franchised but most folk
> would consider them to be part of a National Rail service.
>
> Eurostar isn’t part of National Rail and its track assets aren’t owned
> (though maintained by) by Network Rail.
>
> Finally, the National Conditions of Travel also apply to London Overground
> (and the open access operators)
>
> Page 29 (for the haystack averse)
>
> https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/3Y9UXuFziljwsGFCUAwKAA/0aa50a101febffda28c070aae2572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

I think it's the last point that's most relevant.

On 07/04/2024 11:31, Roland Perry wrote:
> Merseyrail franchise - is it really the sole responsibility of the Mayor
> of Liverpool?

Not Liverpool, but Liverpool City Region. Steve Rotherham (the Mayor of
the City Region) is possibly out checking some new pointwork.

(You could try Wikipedia, there's sure to be a section about Merseyrail)

--
Dave
Frodsham

On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 11:33:47 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <uutmj8$2lvm3$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:47:36 on Sun, 7 Apr
> 2024, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>London Overground and Elizabeth Line are included on the National Rail
>>"Find a TOC" page here
>>https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/ find-a-train-company/
>>- London Underground isn't listed.
>
> I don't believe that makes them a TOC, rather than something a
> dumbed-down website thinks describing as a TOC is helpful to the great
> unwashed.

The question was whether they're part of "National Rail". That's a brand
name owned by the Rail Delivery Group, so I'd be inclined to defer to
their definition - as it's a brand rather than an organisation there isn't
really a cast iron definition to use. And RDG have provided a list of
train companies - on a website branded "National Rail" - which includes LO
and EL but not LU. It's not a list of RDG members, as LU is a member, as
is Eurostar, Metrolink, and Sheffield Supertram, among others.
The same site has live departures, and is happy to show me LO and EL
departures, but refuses to recognise stations on the Underground or DLR.

You don't have to agree of course. But I'd be interested to hear why you
think that LO and EL are disqualified because they're awarded by TfL when
Merseyrail (Liverpool City Region), Scotrail (Scottish Government) and
Transport for Wales (Welsh Government) are not.

Mike

On 07/04/2024 07:57, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <1nl31j5d18tehjjtat1g0dsbhsen69jga8@4ax.com>, at 00:13:30 on
>> Sun, 7 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 18:09:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <udr21jhm12evn1193skus32d6mjs7uh2oa@4ax.com>, at 16:48:48 on
>>>> Sat, 6 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 16:19:14 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 09:13:47 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no National Rail trains in and out of Euston today because of
>>>>>>> ASLEF's suicidal strike action,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Er, yes there are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>> Hmm, that seems to have been shunted into a siding until today.
>>>>> Er, yes there were but only the DC line from 0918-1927
>>>>
>>>> Which TOC?
>>>>
>>> Caledonian Sleepers and London Overground.
>>
>> Caledonian Sleepers is the classic extreme corner case (is ASLEF
>> striking in Scotland anyway), and London Overground doesn't count as
>> "National Rail" in this instance. News reports mentioned the latter,
>> but not the former.
>
> Why isn’t London Overground part of National Rail?
>

Because it is TfL
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 07/04/2024 07:57, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <1nl31j5d18tehjjtat1g0dsbhsen69jga8@4ax.com>, at 00:13:30 on
>>> Sun, 7 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 18:09:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <udr21jhm12evn1193skus32d6mjs7uh2oa@4ax.com>, at 16:48:48 on
>>>>> Sat, 6 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 16:19:14 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 09:13:47 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no National Rail trains in and out of Euston today because of
>>>>>>>> ASLEF's suicidal strike action,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Er, yes there are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>> Hmm, that seems to have been shunted into a siding until today.
>>>>>> Er, yes there were but only the DC line from 0918-1927
>>>>>
>>>>> Which TOC?
>>>>>
>>>> Caledonian Sleepers and London Overground.
>>>
>>> Caledonian Sleepers is the classic extreme corner case (is ASLEF
>>> striking in Scotland anyway), and London Overground doesn't count as
>>> "National Rail" in this instance. News reports mentioned the latter,
>>> but not the former.
>>
>> Why isn’t London Overground part of National Rail?
>>
>
> Because it is TfL

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/what-we-do#on-this-page-3

We work with other organisations to manage the London Overground network:

Arriva Rail London manages the network's stations and trains day-to-day
Network Rail manages and maintains most of the track and signals

London Overground is part of the National Rail network

In message <uuunno$2u6bn$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:13:12 on Sun, 7 Apr
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/04/2024 07:57, Tweed wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <1nl31j5d18tehjjtat1g0dsbhsen69jga8@4ax.com>, at 00:13:30 on
>>>> Sun, 7 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 18:09:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <udr21jhm12evn1193skus32d6mjs7uh2oa@4ax.com>, at 16:48:48 on
>>>>>> Sat, 6 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 16:19:14 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 09:13:47 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's no National Rail trains in and out of Euston today because of
>>>>>>>>> ASLEF's suicidal strike action,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Er, yes there are.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>> Hmm, that seems to have been shunted into a siding until today.
>>>>>>> Er, yes there were but only the DC line from 0918-1927
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which TOC?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers and London Overground.
>>>>
>>>> Caledonian Sleepers is the classic extreme corner case (is ASLEF
>>>> striking in Scotland anyway), and London Overground doesn't count as
>>>> "National Rail" in this instance. News reports mentioned the latter,
>>>> but not the former.
>>>
>>> Why isn’t London Overground part of National Rail?
>>>
>>
>> Because it is TfL
>
>https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/what-we-do#on-this-page-3
>
>We work with other organisations to manage the London Overground network:
>
>Arriva Rail London manages the network's stations and trains day-to-day
>Network Rail manages and maintains most of the track and signals
>
>London Overground is part of the National Rail network

I'm surprised at that, but it does sound definitive.
--
Roland Perry

In message <65vQN.31448$Lw2.8644@fx11.ams1>, at 11:04:34 on Sun, 7 Apr
2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uutl26$2m5rs$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:21:26 on Sun, 7 Apr
>> 2024, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>> On 07/04/2024 05:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <1nl31j5d18tehjjtat1g0dsbhsen69jga8@4ax.com>, at 00:13:30
>>>> on Sun, 7 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 18:09:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <udr21jhm12evn1193skus32d6mjs7uh2oa@4ax.com>, at 16:48:48 on
>>>>>> Sat, 6 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 16:19:14 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 09:13:47 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's no National Rail trains in and out of Euston today because of
>>>>>>>>> ASLEF's suicidal strike action,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Er, yes there are.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>> Hmm, that seems to have been shunted into a siding until today.
>>>>>>> Er, yes there were but only the DC line from 0918-1927
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which TOC?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers and London Overground.
>>>> Caledonian Sleepers is the classic extreme corner case (is ASLEF
>>>> striking in Scotland anyway), and London Overground doesn't count as
>>>> "National Rail" in this instance. News reports mentioned the latter,
>>>> but not the former.
>>>
>>> London Overground provides services on the National Rail network west
>>> of London Paddington and north of London Liverpool Street railway
>>> stations so does count.
>>
>> I think the organisation responsible for the trains is more important
>> than which metals they run on. The UndergrounD runs on some Network Rail
>> metals, but that doesn't make them a TOC.
>
>LO is a concession, just like GA, XC or GTR.

The point I was trying to make is who is in charge of awarding the
concession.

Using the expression "National Rail" as something which reports to
"Nations", of which TfL isn't one (notwithstanding Passport to Pimlico).
Rather than a description of it being part of a network of trains across
the nations, in which case the Ffestiniog Railway would count.

--
Roland Perry

In message <KWuQN.90233$au2.70733@fx12.ams1>, at 10:53:30 on Sun, 7 Apr
2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uutl87$2m91p$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:24:39 on Sun, 7 Apr
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <uutg45$2l6j2$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:57:09 on Sun, 7 Apr
>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <1nl31j5d18tehjjtat1g0dsbhsen69jga8@4ax.com>, at 00:13:30 on
>>>>>> Sun, 7 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 18:09:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <udr21jhm12evn1193skus32d6mjs7uh2oa@4ax.com>, at 16:48:48 on
>>>>>>>> Sat, 6 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>>>>>remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 16:19:14 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 09:13:47 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There's no National Rail trains in and out of Euston today
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ASLEF's suicidal strike action,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Er, yes there are.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>> Hmm, that seems to have been shunted into a siding until today.
>>>>>>>>> Er, yes there were but only the DC line from 0918-1927
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which TOC?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers and London Overground.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers is the classic extreme corner case (is ASLEF
>>>>>> striking in Scotland anyway), and London Overground doesn't count as
>>>>>> "National Rail" in this instance. News reports mentioned the latter,
>>>>>> but not the former.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why isn’t London Overground part of National Rail?
>>>>
>>>> Because it's a franchise of TfL, not the DfT.
>>>
>>> So that makes Merseyrail, TfW and Scotrail not part of National Rail
>>> either?
>>
>> I'm not sure who lets the Merseyrail franchise - is it really the sole
>> responsibility of the Mayor of Liverpool?
>
>It's not a franchise.
>
>>
>> TfW and Scotrail report to National governments, just not the English
>> one.
>
>So why is it different if the governing body for London (more population
>than Scotland and Wales combined) lets the LO concession?

Because London isn't a "Nation".
--
Roland Perry

On 07.04.2024 13:24, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uutl87$2m91p$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:24:39 on Sun, 7 Apr
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <uutg45$2l6j2$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:57:09 on Sun, 7 Apr
>>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <1nl31j5d18tehjjtat1g0dsbhsen69jga8@4ax.com>, at 00:13:30 on
>>>>>>> Sun, 7 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 18:09:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <udr21jhm12evn1193skus32d6mjs7uh2oa@4ax.com>, at 16:48:48 on
>>>>>>>>> Sat, 6 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 16:19:14 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 09:13:47 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no National Rail trains in and out of Euston today because of
>>>>>>>>>>>> ASLEF's suicidal strike action,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Er, yes there are.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, that seems to have been shunted into a siding until today.
>>>>>>>>>> Er, yes there were but only the DC line from 0918-1927
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which TOC?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers and London Overground.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers is the classic extreme corner case (is ASLEF
>>>>>>> striking in Scotland anyway), and London Overground doesn't count as
>>>>>>> "National Rail" in this instance. News reports mentioned the latter,
>>>>>>> but not the former.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why isn’t London Overground part of National Rail?
>>>>>
>>>>> Because it's a franchise of TfL, not the DfT.
>>>>
>>>> So that makes Merseyrail, TfW and Scotrail not part of National Rail
>>>> either?
>>>
>>> I'm not sure who lets the Merseyrail franchise - is it really the sole
>>> responsibility of the Mayor of Liverpool?
>>
>> It's not a franchise.
>>
>>>
>>> TfW and Scotrail report to National governments, just not the English
>>> one.
>>
>> So why is it different if the governing body for London (more population
>> than Scotland and Wales combined) lets the LO concession?
>>
>>
>
> Isn’t a better definition of National Rail services that run largely over
> track assets owned by Network Rail? I appreciate there may be some grey
> areas on the outer portions of the Underground.
>
> Lumo and the other open access operators aren’t franchised but most folk
> would consider them to be part of a National Rail service.
>
> Eurostar isn’t part of National Rail and its track assets aren’t owned
> (though maintained by) by Network Rail.
>
> Finally, the National Conditions of Travel also apply to London Overground
> (and the open access operators)
>
> Page 29 (for the haystack averse)
>
> https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/3Y9UXuFziljwsGFCUAwKAA/0aa50a101febffda28c070aae2572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

Surely the obvious answer to what is and is not "National Rail" is to
look at what the organisation called "National Rail" is. From their own
website,

"We are part of the Rail Delivery Group (RDG), which provides business
services to Train Operating Companies, open access operators, freight
operating companies and Network Rail.

Management of the site is shared by Train Operating Companies and RDG.
Train Companies are responsible for all content that relates to their
organisation, including station information, products, promotions and
ticket Restriction Codes. Information on topics that apply to all
companies and that affect the railway on a national scale is managed by
RDG."

On their own list of train companies that form part of their
organisation, it includes London Overground, Elizabeth line, TfW,
Scotrail, Merseyrail, and the various open access operators.

Robin

On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 07:40:45 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <65vQN.31448$Lw2.8644@fx11.ams1>, at 11:04:34 on Sun, 7 Apr
>2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uutl26$2m5rs$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:21:26 on Sun, 7 Apr
>>> 2024, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 07/04/2024 05:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <1nl31j5d18tehjjtat1g0dsbhsen69jga8@4ax.com>, at 00:13:30
>>>>> on Sun, 7 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 18:09:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <udr21jhm12evn1193skus32d6mjs7uh2oa@4ax.com>, at 16:48:48 on
>>>>>>> Sat, 6 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 16:19:14 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 09:13:47 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's no National Rail trains in and out of Euston today because of
>>>>>>>>>> ASLEF's suicidal strike action,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Er, yes there are.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>> Hmm, that seems to have been shunted into a siding until today.
>>>>>>>> Er, yes there were but only the DC line from 0918-1927
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which TOC?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers and London Overground.
>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers is the classic extreme corner case (is ASLEF
>>>>> striking in Scotland anyway), and London Overground doesn't count as
>>>>> "National Rail" in this instance. News reports mentioned the latter,
>>>>> but not the former.
>>>>
>>>> London Overground provides services on the National Rail network west
>>>> of London Paddington and north of London Liverpool Street railway
>>>> stations so does count.
>>>
>>> I think the organisation responsible for the trains is more important
>>> than which metals they run on. The UndergrounD runs on some Network Rail
>>> metals, but that doesn't make them a TOC.
>>
>>LO is a concession, just like GA, XC or GTR.
>
>The point I was trying to make is who is in charge of awarding the
>concession.
>
>Using the expression "National Rail" as something which reports to
>"Nations", of which TfL isn't one (notwithstanding Passport to Pimlico).
>Rather than a description of it being part of a network of trains across
>the nations, in which case the Ffestiniog Railway would count.

It's not a description of who awards or operates the concession. It defines the rules under which the train operator
functions.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uuunno$2u6bn$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:13:12 on Sun, 7 Apr
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 07/04/2024 07:57, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <1nl31j5d18tehjjtat1g0dsbhsen69jga8@4ax.com>, at 00:13:30 on
>>>>> Sun, 7 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 18:09:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <udr21jhm12evn1193skus32d6mjs7uh2oa@4ax.com>, at 16:48:48 on
>>>>>>> Sat, 6 Apr 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 16:19:14 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 09:13:47 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's no National Rail trains in and out of Euston today because of
>>>>>>>>>> ASLEF's suicidal strike action,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Er, yes there are.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>> Hmm, that seems to have been shunted into a siding until today.
>>>>>>>> Er, yes there were but only the DC line from 0918-1927
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which TOC?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers and London Overground.
>>>>>
>>>>> Caledonian Sleepers is the classic extreme corner case (is ASLEF
>>>>> striking in Scotland anyway), and London Overground doesn't count as
>>>>> "National Rail" in this instance. News reports mentioned the latter,
>>>>> but not the former.
>>>>
>>>> Why isn’t London Overground part of National Rail?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because it is TfL
>>
>> https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/what-we-do#on-this-page-3
>>
>> We work with other organisations to manage the London Overground network:
>>
>> Arriva Rail London manages the network's stations and trains day-to-day
>> Network Rail manages and maintains most of the track and signals
>>
>> London Overground is part of the National Rail network
>
> I'm surprised at that, but it does sound definitive.

TfL has been very successful with their branding of the Overground, so it’s
easy to think it’s entirely their train set. They’ve probably taken their
inspiration from many of the German city transport networks, where the U
and S-Bahn systems appear to be a single operation. However in most cases
the U is operated by a city organisation and the S by DB. (Exceptions
apply)

In message <R2vQN.8791$jC2.7718@fx06.ams1>, at 11:02:09 on Sun, 7 Apr
2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>you're perfectly free to have your own definitions of everything else
>in your private Ely bubble

I'm glad you mentioned that, because it confirms your only motive here
is to troll, and be obnoxious.

So I give your opinions significant negative weighting as a result (and
I would encourage others to, as well).
--
Roland Perry

In message <uuu921$2q7na$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:02:41 on Sun, 7 Apr
2024, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:

[National Rail or not, depending on who awards the franchise]

>I'd be interested to hear why you think that LO and EL are disqualified
>because they're awarded by TfL when Merseyrail (Liverpool City Region),
>Scotrail (Scottish Government) and Transport for Wales (Welsh
>Government) are not.

My view was originally that if they didn't report to a National
government, then the description "National" was inappropriate.

However, I now have to accept that RDG take a different view, and use
the term "National" to mean "operate in one (or more) of the nations".

Of course that also applies to London Underground, but for some reason
they aren't in the club.

Is Heathrow Express also National Rail, or is it too frozen out (maybe a
lack of interavailable ticketing with other operators, unlike Open
Access has for walk-up tickets).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uuu921$2q7na$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:02:41 on Sun, 7 Apr
> 2024, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>
> [National Rail or not, depending on who awards the franchise]
>
>> I'd be interested to hear why you think that LO and EL are disqualified
>> because they're awarded by TfL when Merseyrail (Liverpool City Region),
>> Scotrail (Scottish Government) and Transport for Wales (Welsh
>> Government) are not.
>
> My view was originally that if they didn't report to a National
> government, then the description "National" was inappropriate.
>
> However, I now have to accept that RDG take a different view, and use
> the term "National" to mean "operate in one (or more) of the nations".
>
> Of course that also applies to London Underground, but for some reason
> they aren't in the club.
>
> Is Heathrow Express also National Rail, or is it too frozen out (maybe a
> lack of interavailable ticketing with other operators, unlike Open
> Access has for walk-up tickets).

Wouldn't it be great if someone would invent a search engine? Then you'd
be able to find pages like this:

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/find-a-train-company/

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <R2vQN.8791$jC2.7718@fx06.ams1>, at 11:02:09 on Sun, 7 Apr
> 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> you're perfectly free to have your own definitions of everything else
>> in your private Ely bubble
>
> I'm glad you mentioned that, because it confirms your only motive here
> is to troll, and be obnoxious.
>
> So I give your opinions significant negative weighting as a result (and
> I would encourage others to, as well).

Oh, I know, and it's highly amusing for the rest of us.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uuu921$2q7na$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:02:41 on Sun, 7 Apr
>> 2024, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>
>> [National Rail or not, depending on who awards the franchise]
>>
>>> I'd be interested to hear why you think that LO and EL are disqualified
>>> because they're awarded by TfL when Merseyrail (Liverpool City Region),
>>> Scotrail (Scottish Government) and Transport for Wales (Welsh
>>> Government) are not.
>>
>> My view was originally that if they didn't report to a National
>> government, then the description "National" was inappropriate.
>>
>> However, I now have to accept that RDG take a different view, and use
>> the term "National" to mean "operate in one (or more) of the nations".
>>
>> Of course that also applies to London Underground, but for some reason
>> they aren't in the club.
>>
>> Is Heathrow Express also National Rail, or is it too frozen out (maybe a
>> lack of interavailable ticketing with other operators, unlike Open
>> Access has for walk-up tickets).
>
> Wouldn't it be great if someone would invent a search engine? Then you'd
> be able to find pages like this:
>
> https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/find-a-train-company/
>
>

I can buy an Anytime ticket from the East Midlands to Heathrow that allows
travel either by the Elizabeth Line or HeX. Does that count as
Interavailable?

On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 09:00:40 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <uuu921$2q7na$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:02:41 on Sun, 7 Apr
>2024, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>
>[National Rail or not, depending on who awards the franchise]
>
>>I'd be interested to hear why you think that LO and EL are disqualified
>>because they're awarded by TfL when Merseyrail (Liverpool City Region),
>>Scotrail (Scottish Government) and Transport for Wales (Welsh
>>Government) are not.
>
>My view was originally that if they didn't report to a National
>government, then the description "National" was inappropriate.
>
>However, I now have to accept that RDG take a different view, and use
>the term "National" to mean "operate in one (or more) of the nations".
>
>Of course that also applies to London Underground, but for some reason
>they aren't in the club.
>
Looking at RDG's articles of association, LU is probably excluded
from membership by failing to "... be likely to derive in the next
Railway Year a turnover in excess of the Prescribed Amount from its
passenger rail operations on Network Rail's infrastructure.." (which
amounts to the Queens Park to Harrow on the DC line and Gunnersbury to
Richmond on the NLL and...?).

>Is Heathrow Express also National Rail, or is it too frozen out (maybe a
>lack of interavailable ticketing with other operators, unlike Open
>Access has for walk-up tickets).

On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:14:42 +0100, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 09:00:40 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <uuu921$2q7na$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:02:41 on Sun, 7 Apr
>>2024, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>
>>[National Rail or not, depending on who awards the franchise]
>>
>>>I'd be interested to hear why you think that LO and EL are disqualified
>>>because they're awarded by TfL when Merseyrail (Liverpool City Region),
>>>Scotrail (Scottish Government) and Transport for Wales (Welsh
>>>Government) are not.
>>
>>My view was originally that if they didn't report to a National
>>government, then the description "National" was inappropriate.
>>
>>However, I now have to accept that RDG take a different view, and use
>>the term "National" to mean "operate in one (or more) of the nations".
>>
>>Of course that also applies to London Underground, but for some reason
>>they aren't in the club.
>>
>Looking at RDG's articles of association, LU is probably excluded
>from membership by failing to "... be likely to derive in the next
>Railway Year a turnover in excess of the Prescribed Amount from its
>passenger rail operations on Network Rail's infrastructure.." (which
>amounts to the Queens Park to Harrow on the DC line and Gunnersbury to
>Richmond on the NLL and...?).
>
[send pressed too quick :-( ]
The "Prescribed Amount" being "100M pounds or such other amount as the
directors with the approval of the Office of Rail and Road from time
to time determine".
<snip>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:14:42 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
> Looking at RDG's articles of association, LU is probably excluded from
> membership by failing to "... be likely to derive in the next Railway
> Year a turnover in excess of the Prescribed Amount from its passenger
> rail operations on Network Rail's infrastructure.." (which amounts to
> the Queens Park to Harrow on the DC line and Gunnersbury to Richmond on
> the NLL and...?).

London Underground Ltd is a member of RDG - see
https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/passenger-freight-track/
licensed-associate-members.html
As are DLR, Eurostar, Eurostar, South Yorkshire Supertram, North York
Moors Railway, and a lot of freight companies - none of which are
"National Rail".

>>Is Heathrow Express also National Rail, or is it too frozen out (maybe a
>>lack of interavailable ticketing with other operators, unlike Open
>>Access has for walk-up tickets).

Heathrow Express does appear on the National Rail website, so it seems
that they are part of National Rail.

It seems that the paragraph Charles Ellson quoted give us an insight - any
passenger operator that primarily runs on Network Rail tracks is "National
Rail", and any that primarily runs on their own tracks is not. So LO and
Merseyrail are in, while LU, Tyne and Wear Metro, Sheffield Supertram etc
are out, even though they do run some services on Network Rail and are
members of RDG.

Mike