On 24/01/2024 21:39, Recliner wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 23.01.2024 16:22, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:13:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>>>>>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>>>>>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>>>>>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>>>>>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>>>>>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>>>>>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>>>>>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>>>>>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>>>>>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>>>>>>> won't last forever.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>>>>>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>>>>>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>>>>>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>>>>>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>>>>>>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>>>>>>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
>>>>>>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>>>>>>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
>>>>>>> go?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Class 323, perhaps? 322 are all gone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
>>>>>>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>>>>>>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 08s forever!
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, indeed! I wonder if the battery electric conversion still counts
>>>>> as a BR legacy product?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/10/20/british-pioneers-spark-new-battery-powered-life-into-centurion-shunter/
>>>>
>>>> While in principle conversions are a way to extend the life of rolling
>>>> stock, in practice the track record has not exactly proven to be very
>>>> successful. Of the various attempts to re-traction ex BR units, as well
>>>> as the D78 stock have not proven to be particularly successful projects
>>>> in practice, and I can't help but suspect they will not find long term use.
>>>
>>> The HST MTU engine conversion went pretty well, but I agree that most such
>>> projects have had disappointing results. It'll be interesting to see how
>>> the 69s do. The 08E seems well-conceived, retaining as much of the proven
>>> original as possible.
>>
>> I wonder if the 57s count as successful? They seemed to do what was needed
>> from them. Perhaps they were too niche to get widespread appeal in a field
>> flooded with 66s. Will the 69s be any better loved?
>
> I believe the 57s are quite unreliable, so there weren't follow-on orders.
> The 69s seem more promising, but it's early days yet. Apparently they
> out-perform 66s.
>
>
The 57/3s were converted for a specific purpose - to haul Class 390 over
non-electrified sections, e.g. from Crewe to Holyhead, or on diversions
due to engineering work. That need ceased when:

(1) "They" (Virgin, then Avanti, possibly with DfT involvement) decided
to run Voyagers under the wires all the way from Euston to Holyhead.

(2) "They" decided they rather use rail replacement buses than pay to
retain crew route knowledge over (many) diversionary routes.

The 57/0s were for freight only, used until Freightliner decided it
preferred Class 66s.

The residual 57/0 and 57/3 have mostly passed to other operators.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 23.01.2024 16:22, Recliner wrote:

>>
>> While in principle conversions are a way to extend the life of rolling
>> stock, in practice the track record has not exactly proven to be very
>> successful. Of the various attempts to re-traction ex BR units, as well
>> as the D78 stock have not proven to be particularly successful projects
>> in practice, and I can't help but suspect they will not find long term use.
>
> The HST MTU engine conversion went pretty well, but I agree that most such
> projects have had disappointing results. It'll be interesting to see how
> the 69s do. The 08E seems well-conceived, retaining as much of the proven
> original as possible.
>
>

Going back a bit but was the rebuilding of Bulleids Pacifics regarded as
being successful if we confine the question to the physical attributes of
the Locos? Economically I would be surprised if it was worth doing with
many withdrawn only a few years after being rebuilt.
Similarly the modifications done to MK 111 coaches such as powered doors
and retention tanks
seems a big cost for only a few years service though the worst recent
example of wasting money and materials may well be the Class 442 Electrics
, 45 Million refurb and scrapped with little service.

GH

On 25/01/2024 02:35, Marland wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 23.01.2024 16:22, Recliner wrote:
>
>>>
>>> While in principle conversions are a way to extend the life of rolling
>>> stock, in practice the track record has not exactly proven to be very
>>> successful. Of the various attempts to re-traction ex BR units, as well
>>> as the D78 stock have not proven to be particularly successful projects
>>> in practice, and I can't help but suspect they will not find long term use.
>>
>> The HST MTU engine conversion went pretty well, but I agree that most such
>> projects have had disappointing results. It'll be interesting to see how
>> the 69s do. The 08E seems well-conceived, retaining as much of the proven
>> original as possible.
>>
>>
>
> Going back a bit but was the rebuilding of Bulleids Pacifics regarded as
> being successful if we confine the question to the physical attributes of
> the Locos? Economically I would be surprised if it was worth doing with
> many withdrawn only a few years after being rebuilt.
> Similarly the modifications done to MK 111 coaches such as powered doors
> and retention tanks
> seems a big cost for only a few years service though the worst recent
> example of wasting money and materials may well be the Class 442 Electrics
> , 45 Million refurb and scrapped with little service.
>
> GH

Technically, the rebuilt Bulleid Pacifics were probably successful,
particularly the replacement of Bulleid's chain-driven valve gear, which
could be very troublesome. But, as you say, the economics were probably
adverse - most of them lasted for 10 years or less after conversion,
compared with the typical life of 30-40 years for express passenger
steam locos.

The problem with the 442s may have been that they reused electrical
components from the 1967 stock for the Bournemouth line electrification
- so probably quite well-worn when the 442s were first created. Also, we
have seen the wasteful premature withdrawals caused by DfT insistence on
getting new stock at some changes of franchise (e.g. Classes 317, 321,
365 might have been expected to last for another 10-15 years.)

In message <TmNrN.38153$Um93.15713@fx13.ams1>, at 11:25:39 on Tue, 23
Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>
>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>> won't last forever.
>>
>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>
>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>
>The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
>policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
>go?
>
>But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
>90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.

Not every train is a passenger one.

The oldest things I see from time to time are diesels pulling trains
back and forth from the Papworth Sidings graveyard. And of course
there's also the 'flying banana'. The other day I saw a photo on
Facebook of a snowplough train, which I think had two legacy diesel
locos.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 10:28:55 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <TmNrN.38153$Um93.15713@fx13.ams1>, at 11:25:39 on Tue, 23
>Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
>>90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>>becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>
>Not every train is a passenger one.
>
>The oldest things I see from time to time are diesels pulling trains
>back and forth from the Papworth Sidings graveyard. And of course
>there's also the 'flying banana'. The other day I saw a photo on
>Facebook of a snowplough train, which I think had two legacy diesel
>locos.

Plenty of class 37s still pottering around the network. Most of them are 60+
years old now.

On 25.01.2024 11:28, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <TmNrN.38153$Um93.15713@fx13.ams1>, at 11:25:39 on Tue, 23
> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>
>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>> won't last forever.
>>>
>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>
>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be?  I have my own
>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them
>>> just yet.
>>
>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the
>> DfT's
>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the
>> last to
>> go?
>>
>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some
>> class
>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>
> Not every train is a passenger one.

Indeed, but once you broaden the scope away from routine scheduled
passenger services, a whole set of edge cases and unclear definitions is
opened up. Does something like the Shenfield Shark count as "in
service"? There are cases of locomotives that have been disposed of by
"conventional" operators, entered "preservation", and then returned to
revenue service on the "mainline", perhaps most notably D9000 in
1997-1999. If that is counted, then effectively any mainline certified
locomotive would potentially count.

Robin

On 25.01.2024 00:49, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 24/01/2024 21:39, Recliner wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 23.01.2024 16:22, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:13:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we
>>>>>>>>> have seen
>>>>>>>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In
>>>>>>>>> ex-NSE
>>>>>>>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of
>>>>>>>>> the Mk3 era
>>>>>>>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and
>>>>>>>>> there are
>>>>>>>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much
>>>>>>>>> longer. That
>>>>>>>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166
>>>>>>>>> units still
>>>>>>>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR
>>>>>>>>> fleets
>>>>>>>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the
>>>>>>>>> Mk4
>>>>>>>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near
>>>>>>>>> future. Some
>>>>>>>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling
>>>>>>>>> stock
>>>>>>>>> won't last forever.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and
>>>>>>>>> various rural
>>>>>>>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland
>>>>>>>>> maintaining
>>>>>>>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in
>>>>>>>>> service (as
>>>>>>>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the
>>>>>>>>> end of the
>>>>>>>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be?  I have my own
>>>>>>>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving
>>>>>>>>> them just yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might
>>>>>>>> be the
>>>>>>>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer,
>>>>>>>> but the DfT's
>>>>>>>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be
>>>>>>>> the last to
>>>>>>>> go?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Class 323, perhaps? 322 are all gone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be
>>>>>>>> some class
>>>>>>>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>>>>>>>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small
>>>>>>>> numbers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 08s forever!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, indeed!  I wonder if the battery electric conversion still
>>>>>> counts
>>>>>> as a BR legacy product?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/10/20/british-pioneers-spark-new-battery-powered-life-into-centurion-shunter/
>>>>>
>>>>> While in principle conversions are a way to extend the life of rolling
>>>>> stock, in practice the track record has not exactly proven to be very
>>>>> successful.  Of the various attempts to re-traction ex BR units, as
>>>>> well
>>>>> as the D78 stock have not proven to be particularly successful
>>>>> projects
>>>>> in practice, and I can't help but suspect they will not find long
>>>>> term use.
>>>>
>>>> The HST MTU engine conversion went pretty well, but I agree that
>>>> most such
>>>> projects have had disappointing results. It'll be interesting to see
>>>> how
>>>> the 69s do. The 08E seems well-conceived, retaining as much of the
>>>> proven
>>>> original as possible.
>>>
>>> I wonder if the 57s count as successful?  They seemed to do what was
>>> needed
>>> from them.  Perhaps they were too niche to get widespread appeal in a
>>> field
>>> flooded with 66s.  Will the 69s be any better loved?
>>
>> I believe the 57s are quite unreliable, so there weren't follow-on
>> orders.
>> The 69s seem more promising, but it's early days yet. Apparently they
>> out-perform 66s.
>>
>>
> The 57/3s were converted for a specific purpose - to haul Class 390 over
> non-electrified sections, e.g. from Crewe to Holyhead, or on diversions
> due to engineering work. That need ceased when:
>
> (1) "They" (Virgin, then Avanti, possibly with DfT involvement) decided
> to run Voyagers under the wires all the way from Euston to Holyhead.
>
> (2) "They" decided they rather use rail replacement buses than pay to
> retain crew route knowledge over (many) diversionary routes.
>
> The 57/0s were for freight only, used until Freightliner decided it
> preferred Class 66s.
>
> The residual 57/0 and 57/3 have mostly passed to other operators.

There are also the 57/6, most of which were converted specifically for
the Night Riveira services, where they remain in use.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 25.01.2024 00:49, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 24/01/2024 21:39, Recliner wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 23.01.2024 16:22, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:13:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we
>>>>>>>>>> have seen
>>>>>>>>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In
>>>>>>>>>> ex-NSE
>>>>>>>>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of
>>>>>>>>>> the Mk3 era
>>>>>>>>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and
>>>>>>>>>> there are
>>>>>>>>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much
>>>>>>>>>> longer. That
>>>>>>>>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166
>>>>>>>>>> units still
>>>>>>>>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR
>>>>>>>>>> fleets
>>>>>>>>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the
>>>>>>>>>> Mk4
>>>>>>>>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near
>>>>>>>>>> future. Some
>>>>>>>>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling
>>>>>>>>>> stock
>>>>>>>>>> won't last forever.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and
>>>>>>>>>> various rural
>>>>>>>>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland
>>>>>>>>>> maintaining
>>>>>>>>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in
>>>>>>>>>> service (as
>>>>>>>>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the
>>>>>>>>>> end of the
>>>>>>>>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be?  I have my own
>>>>>>>>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving
>>>>>>>>>> them just yet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might
>>>>>>>>> be the
>>>>>>>>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer,
>>>>>>>>> but the DfT's
>>>>>>>>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be
>>>>>>>>> the last to
>>>>>>>>> go?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Class 323, perhaps? 322 are all gone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be
>>>>>>>>> some class
>>>>>>>>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>>>>>>>>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small
>>>>>>>>> numbers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 08s forever!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, indeed!  I wonder if the battery electric conversion still
>>>>>>> counts
>>>>>>> as a BR legacy product?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/10/20/british-pioneers-spark-new-battery-powered-life-into-centurion-shunter/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While in principle conversions are a way to extend the life of rolling
>>>>>> stock, in practice the track record has not exactly proven to be very
>>>>>> successful.  Of the various attempts to re-traction ex BR units, as
>>>>>> well
>>>>>> as the D78 stock have not proven to be particularly successful
>>>>>> projects
>>>>>> in practice, and I can't help but suspect they will not find long
>>>>>> term use.
>>>>>
>>>>> The HST MTU engine conversion went pretty well, but I agree that
>>>>> most such
>>>>> projects have had disappointing results. It'll be interesting to see
>>>>> how
>>>>> the 69s do. The 08E seems well-conceived, retaining as much of the
>>>>> proven
>>>>> original as possible.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if the 57s count as successful?  They seemed to do what was
>>>> needed
>>>> from them.  Perhaps they were too niche to get widespread appeal in a
>>>> field
>>>> flooded with 66s.  Will the 69s be any better loved?
>>>
>>> I believe the 57s are quite unreliable, so there weren't follow-on
>>> orders.
>>> The 69s seem more promising, but it's early days yet. Apparently they
>>> out-perform 66s.
>>>
>>>
>> The 57/3s were converted for a specific purpose - to haul Class 390 over
>> non-electrified sections, e.g. from Crewe to Holyhead, or on diversions
>> due to engineering work. That need ceased when:
>>
>> (1) "They" (Virgin, then Avanti, possibly with DfT involvement) decided
>> to run Voyagers under the wires all the way from Euston to Holyhead.
>>
>> (2) "They" decided they rather use rail replacement buses than pay to
>> retain crew route knowledge over (many) diversionary routes.
>>
>> The 57/0s were for freight only, used until Freightliner decided it
>> preferred Class 66s.
>>
>> The residual 57/0 and 57/3 have mostly passed to other operators.
>
> There are also the 57/6, most of which were converted specifically for
> the Night Riveira services, where they remain in use.

^
^ ^
What he said.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <TmNrN.38153$Um93.15713@fx13.ams1>, at 11:25:39 on Tue, 23
> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>
>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>> won't last forever.
>>>
>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>
>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>
>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
>> go?
>>
>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>
> Not every train is a passenger one.
>
> The oldest things I see from time to time are diesels pulling trains
> back and forth from the Papworth Sidings graveyard. And of course
> there's also the 'flying banana'. The other day I saw a photo on
> Facebook of a snowplough train, which I think had two legacy diesel
> locos.

Class 37s, I should think; these two - at the beginning and again with the
ploughs at about 5:30. <https://youtu.be/1navSZEr56I?si=LPdLqavG7PnPNQZT>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> Indeed, but once you broaden the scope away from routine scheduled
> passenger services, a whole set of edge cases and unclear definitions is
> opened up. Does something like the Shenfield Shark count as "in
> service"? There are cases of locomotives that have been disposed of by
> "conventional" operators, entered "preservation", and then returned to
> revenue service on the "mainline", perhaps most notably D9000 in
> 1997-1999. If that is counted, then effectively any mainline certified
> locomotive would potentially count.

Depending on how your define the question, the 484s might count. BR era but
not built by or for BR, refurbished post-BR, and didn't routinely run on the
national network until after the end of BR [*].

No ideas how long they will last - I suspect not 40 years but maybe 10 or
20?

Theo

[*] Were there any bits of the District route in BR ownership
pre-privatisation that the D78s might have run over? Maybe they might have
run to a mainline platform at Wimbledon during engineering works or
something?

On 25.01.2024 19:20, Theo wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> Indeed, but once you broaden the scope away from routine scheduled
>> passenger services, a whole set of edge cases and unclear definitions is
>> opened up. Does something like the Shenfield Shark count as "in
>> service"? There are cases of locomotives that have been disposed of by
>> "conventional" operators, entered "preservation", and then returned to
>> revenue service on the "mainline", perhaps most notably D9000 in
>> 1997-1999. If that is counted, then effectively any mainline certified
>> locomotive would potentially count.
>
> Depending on how your define the question, the 484s might count. BR era but
> not built by or for BR, refurbished post-BR, and didn't routinely run on the
> national network until after the end of BR [*].

As the originator of the question, I would make having been procured by
BR (or one of its standard gauge[1] predecessors) for use by BR as the
defining characteristic.

[1] because otherwise the answer would be Vale of Rheidol

> No ideas how long they will last - I suspect not 40 years but maybe 10 or
> 20?
>
> Theo
>
> [*] Were there any bits of the District route in BR ownership
> pre-privatisation that the D78s might have run over? Maybe they might have
> run to a mainline platform at Wimbledon during engineering works or
> something?

Wimbledon - Putney. One of those anomolies on the network, and the line
still sees occasional national rail trains, though they don't call at
any of the intermediate stations.

Robin

On 23/01/2024 08:05, Bob wrote:

> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
> BR legacy fleet?

9Fs.

> Where will the last hold-outs be?

Well they are currently at %&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER

--
Arthur Figgis

On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 20:51:44 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:

>On 25.01.2024 19:20, Theo wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> Indeed, but once you broaden the scope away from routine scheduled
>>> passenger services, a whole set of edge cases and unclear definitions is
>>> opened up. Does something like the Shenfield Shark count as "in
>>> service"? There are cases of locomotives that have been disposed of by
>>> "conventional" operators, entered "preservation", and then returned to
>>> revenue service on the "mainline", perhaps most notably D9000 in
>>> 1997-1999. If that is counted, then effectively any mainline certified
>>> locomotive would potentially count.
>>
>> Depending on how your define the question, the 484s might count. BR era but
>> not built by or for BR, refurbished post-BR, and didn't routinely run on the
>> national network until after the end of BR [*].
>
>As the originator of the question, I would make having been procured by
>BR (or one of its standard gauge[1] predecessors) for use by BR as the
>defining characteristic.
>
>[1] because otherwise the answer would be Vale of Rheidol
>
>> No ideas how long they will last - I suspect not 40 years but maybe 10 or
>> 20?
>>
>> Theo
>>
>> [*] Were there any bits of the District route in BR ownership
>> pre-privatisation that the D78s might have run over? Maybe they might have
>> run to a mainline platform at Wimbledon during engineering works or
>> something?
>
>Wimbledon - Putney. One of those anomolies on the network, and the line
>still sees occasional national rail trains, though they don't call at
>any of the intermediate stations.
>
A bit more than "occasional" - a dozen or more ECS workings each day
and 1 or 2 scheduled passenger services each way in the early morning
and late night.