Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
in the NSE era as the last remnants.

Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
won't last forever.

Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.

What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.

I would guess the 158/159 will stick around - cheaper to keep them running
than any kind of hybrid/battery replacement, and on secondary routes where
there's zero electrification there's no point to bimodes. They also have
90mph running and modern passenger amenities (aircon) which 150s and 156s
don't.

I'd guess the 159s will be cascaded from the West of England line, to be
replaced with some kind of bimode, and then moved further north (or west).

Theo

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>
> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
> won't last forever.
>
> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>
> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.

The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
go?

But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.

On 23/01/2024 11:25, Recliner wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>
>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>> won't last forever.
>>
>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>
>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>
> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
> go?
>
> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>

The DBC 90s are already out of service, recently followed by their Class
60s. Freightliner is now the main operator of Class 90s; LSL has two for
"almost heritage" type use on Network Rail.

Because of their wide route availabilty, Classes 37 and 73 may be the
last BR locos to remain in use.

Class 322 emus have all gone - it is class 323 that remains in use, plus
the class 325 "Postal" units. I agree with Bob that Classes 158/159 may
be the last BR dmus. Class 166 are, I believe, confined mainly to former
GWR lines, being slightly wider than many other dmus.

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23/01/2024 11:25, Recliner wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>
>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>> won't last forever.
>>>
>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>
>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>
>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
>> go?
>>
>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>>
>
> The DBC 90s are already out of service, recently followed by their Class
> 60s. Freightliner is now the main operator of Class 90s; LSL has two for
> "almost heritage" type use on Network Rail.

I wonder if other UK freight operators, such as GBRf, might acquire some of
the DBC 90s? GBRf seems to have an insatiable demand for locos, and can
make money from locos that DB lost money on. It's now the biggest operator
of 66s.

I wonder if class 57 and 69 locos count as BR legacy locos? They started
out as BR locos, but were re-engined, like 73s.

>
> Because of their wide route availabilty, Classes 37 and 73 may be the
> last BR locos to remain in use.
>
> Class 322 emus have all gone - it is class 323 that remains in use, plus
> the class 325 "Postal" units.

Yes, I'd forgotten about the 325s. Other BR EMUs might also survive for
some years as freight units.

> I agree with Bob that Classes 158/159 may
> be the last BR dmus. Class 166 are, I believe, confined mainly to former
> GWR lines, being slightly wider than many other dmus.

The Chiltern 165s seem set to remain for quite a few years yet. They're
comfortable (OK, I know that's a negative where the DfT is concerned) and
seem to be in good condition. Chiltern doesn't want to replace them with
new DMUs, but there are no plans to electrify any part of the pure Chiltern
route, so it might be easier to keep them in service for the next few
years.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>
>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>> won't last forever.
>>
>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>
>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>
> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
> go?
>

Class 323, perhaps? 322 are all gone.

> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>

08s forever!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:13:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>
>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>> won't last forever.
>>>
>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>
>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>
>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
>> go?
>>
>
>Class 323, perhaps? 322 are all gone.
>
>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>>
>
>08s forever!

Yes, indeed! I wonder if the battery electric conversion still counts as a BR legacy product?

https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/10/20/british-pioneers-spark-new-battery-powered-life-into-centurion-shunter/

On 23/01/2024 15:22, Recliner wrote:
>> 08s forever!
> Yes, indeed! I wonder if the battery electric conversion still counts as a BR legacy product?
>
> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/10/20/british-pioneers-spark-new-battery-powered-life-into-centurion-shunter/

A few may go that way, but Clayton has made the best one so far, new
build battery/hybrid shunter. 15 made (or still being made) for Beacon
Leasing. The first few are out there now. Youtube link of one below:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4DSI-V6zm0>

On 23.01.2024 13:14, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 23/01/2024 11:25, Recliner wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>
>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>> won't last forever.
>>>
>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>
>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be?  I have my own
>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them
>>> just yet.
>>
>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the
>> DfT's
>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the
>> last to
>> go?
>>
>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some
>> class
>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>>
>
> The DBC 90s are already out of service, recently followed by their Class
> 60s. Freightliner is now the main operator of Class 90s; LSL has two for
> "almost heritage" type use on Network Rail.
>
> Because of their wide route availabilty, Classes 37 and 73 may be the
> last BR locos to remain in use.

I deliberately restricted the question to passenger stock because
locomotives can find niche uses long after their indended roles have
been lost to other traction, and with mainline certified "preseved"
locomotives blurring the line between in service and retired, such as
when Cross Country hired in a Deltic for a while.

> Class 322 emus have all gone - it is class 323 that remains in use, plus
> the class 325 "Postal" units. I agree with Bob that Classes 158/159 may
> be the last BR dmus. Class 166 are, I believe, confined mainly to former
> GWR lines, being slightly wider than many other dmus.

Credit where it's due, it was Theo, not me, who nominated the 159s.

Robin

On 23.01.2024 12:25, Recliner wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>
>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>> won't last forever.
>>
>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>
>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>
> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
> go?

While generally EMUs have longer service lives than DMUs, privatisation
happened to coincide with the transition from DC to AC motored EMUs,
meaning the late BR stock was either the last of the DC motored
generation (Mk3 derived units), or the pioneers of 3 phase traction
(Netowrkers, 323s), and as pioneers, are subject to the various quirks
and kinks in the technology not having been ironed out yet. This is
certainly a major reason why the 365s were retired, and why a
significant portion of the 465 fleet has had their traction equipment
replaced, and the class in general is regarded as likely not to last
much longer in service.

322s will not be the last to go, because they've already gone.

In terms of DMUs, I can see two outcomes for the 158/159 fleets. On the
one hand they are both high quality units and have proven reliable, but
on the other hand they have been used on the more prestige services for
much of their lives, so it may be the case that once they are finished
on their current jobs, they may prove to be worn out and not really
viable for further use.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 23.01.2024 13:14, Bevan Price wrote:
>>
>> Because of their wide route availabilty, Classes 37 and 73 may be the
>> last BR locos to remain in use.
>
> I deliberately restricted the question to passenger stock because
> locomotives can find niche uses long after their indended roles have
> been lost to other traction, and with mainline certified "preseved"
> locomotives blurring the line between in service and retired, such as
> when Cross Country hired in a Deltic for a while.

DRS have just got rid of their 37s - not clear what will happen with other
TOCs’ examples.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 23/01/2024 08:05, Bob wrote:
> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>
> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
> won't last forever.
>
> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>
> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be?  I have my own
> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>

I think the 158/159s will be around a while yet.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> In terms of DMUs, I can see two outcomes for the 158/159 fleets. On the
> one hand they are both high quality units and have proven reliable, but
> on the other hand they have been used on the more prestige services for
> much of their lives, so it may be the case that once they are finished
> on their current jobs, they may prove to be worn out and not really
> viable for further use.

I suppose it would be a case of what they end up replacing. I could see a
159 for 156 swap, but would stopping services operated by 150s want a 158/9?

Or could be current 158 operations keep them. I think TfW are getting rid
of them on the Cambrian. TPE have replaced theirs. Not sure about
Scotrail, but maybe swap for 156s on the WHL and Stanraer? And for Northern
on routes like S&C, plus the 155s?

Theo

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/01/2024 08:05, Bob wrote:
>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>
>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>> won't last forever.
>>
>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>
>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be?  I have my own
>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>
>
> I think the 158/159s will be around a while yet.

Yes, I'd guess at least five years, but probably not more than 10.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/01/2024 08:05, Bob wrote:
>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>
>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>> won't last forever.
>>
>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>
>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be?  I have my own
>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>
>
> I think the 158/159s will be around a while yet.

In at least one way I think that’s a shame - I find 158s cramped, the
visibility isn’t good, and they’re rather slow to load and unload. 156s
are generally more comfortable and practical despite the slower speed and
lack of aircon.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 23/01/2024 08:05, Bob wrote:
>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>
>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>> won't last forever.
>>>
>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>
>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be?  I have my own
>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>>
>>
>> I think the 158/159s will be around a while yet.
>
> In at least one way I think that’s a shame - I find 158s cramped, the
> visibility isn’t good, and they’re rather slow to load and unload. 156s
> are generally more comfortable and practical despite the slower speed and
> lack of aircon.
>

I wonder if these 1980s DMUs will soon start to be affected by supply chain
issues? Are engine, transmission and suspension components still
available? I think they're now too old to be retractioned.

Bimode or BEMU replacements may be on the cards within the next decade, but
I think hydrogen is now off the agenda.

On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 09:05:33 +0100, Bob wrote:
> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just
> yet.

I think that the Night Riviera's Mark 3 coaches will be one of the last.
Cancelling the service would be a political hot potato. GW have missed the
chance to tag on to Caledonian Sleeper's order, and a one-off order for 18
highly custom coaches is going to be expensive. So it's likely the current
stock will keep going until it falls apart.

Mike

On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 15:52:03 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:

>On 23/01/2024 15:22, Recliner wrote:
>>> 08s forever!
>> Yes, indeed! I wonder if the battery electric conversion still counts as a BR legacy product?
>>
>> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/10/20/british-pioneers-spark-new-battery-powered-life-into-centurion-shunter/
>
>A few may go that way, but Clayton has made the best one so far, new
>build battery/hybrid shunter. 15 made (or still being made) for Beacon
>Leasing. The first few are out there now. Youtube link of one below:
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4DSI-V6zm0>
>

We were looking for BR survivors, not the best of any category.

On 23.01.2024 16:22, Recliner wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:13:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>>
>>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>>> won't last forever.
>>>>
>>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>>
>>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>>
>>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
>>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
>>> go?
>>>
>>
>> Class 323, perhaps? 322 are all gone.
>>
>>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
>>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>>>
>>
>> 08s forever!
>
> Yes, indeed! I wonder if the battery electric conversion still counts as a BR legacy product?
>
> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/10/20/british-pioneers-spark-new-battery-powered-life-into-centurion-shunter/

While in principle conversions are a way to extend the life of rolling
stock, in practice the track record has not exactly proven to be very
successful. Of the various attempts to re-traction ex BR units, as well
as the D78 stock have not proven to be particularly successful projects
in practice, and I can't help but suspect they will not find long term use.

Robin

Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 09:05:33 +0100, Bob wrote:
>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just
>> yet.
>
> I think that the Night Riviera's Mark 3 coaches will be one of the last.
> Cancelling the service would be a political hot potato. GW have missed the
> chance to tag on to Caledonian Sleeper's order, and a one-off order for 18
> highly custom coaches is going to be expensive. So it's likely the current
> stock will keep going until it falls apart.
>

Yes, that seems like a good candidate. And, unusually, they'll have spent
their entire lives on exactly the same service. Their lower speeds and
mileages should give them an extended life, unless future safety rules
force them out of service.

Any others that outlive them will either be as heritage stock or trains
converted to a different use (eg, EMUs stripped out for use as parcels
trains).

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 23.01.2024 16:22, Recliner wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:13:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>>>
>>>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>>>> won't last forever.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>>>
>>>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>>>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>>>
>>>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>>>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
>>>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>>>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
>>>> go?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Class 323, perhaps? 322 are all gone.
>>>
>>>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
>>>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>>>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 08s forever!
>>
>> Yes, indeed! I wonder if the battery electric conversion still counts
>> as a BR legacy product?
>>
>> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/10/20/british-pioneers-spark-new-battery-powered-life-into-centurion-shunter/
>
> While in principle conversions are a way to extend the life of rolling
> stock, in practice the track record has not exactly proven to be very
> successful. Of the various attempts to re-traction ex BR units, as well
> as the D78 stock have not proven to be particularly successful projects
> in practice, and I can't help but suspect they will not find long term use.

The HST MTU engine conversion went pretty well, but I agree that most such
projects have had disappointing results. It'll be interesting to see how
the 69s do. The 08E seems well-conceived, retaining as much of the proven
original as possible.

On 24.01.2024 08:49, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 09:05:33 +0100, Bob wrote:
>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just
>> yet.
>
> I think that the Night Riviera's Mark 3 coaches will be one of the last.
> Cancelling the service would be a political hot potato. GW have missed the
> chance to tag on to Caledonian Sleeper's order, and a one-off order for 18
> highly custom coaches is going to be expensive. So it's likely the current
> stock will keep going until it falls apart.

That was essentially the conclusion I came to when pondering the
question. Unpowered coaches can be kept going for a long time,
especially ones that are not used intensively.

Robin

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 23.01.2024 16:22, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:13:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>>>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>>>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>>>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>>>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>>>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>>>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>>>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>>>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>>>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>>>>> won't last forever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>>>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>>>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>>>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>>>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>>>>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>>>>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
>>>>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>>>>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
>>>>> go?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Class 323, perhaps? 322 are all gone.
>>>>
>>>>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
>>>>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>>>>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 08s forever!
>>>
>>> Yes, indeed! I wonder if the battery electric conversion still counts
>>> as a BR legacy product?
>>>
>>> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/10/20/british-pioneers-spark-new-battery-powered-life-into-centurion-shunter/
>>
>> While in principle conversions are a way to extend the life of rolling
>> stock, in practice the track record has not exactly proven to be very
>> successful. Of the various attempts to re-traction ex BR units, as well
>> as the D78 stock have not proven to be particularly successful projects
>> in practice, and I can't help but suspect they will not find long term use.
>
> The HST MTU engine conversion went pretty well, but I agree that most such
> projects have had disappointing results. It'll be interesting to see how
> the 69s do. The 08E seems well-conceived, retaining as much of the proven
> original as possible.

I wonder if the 57s count as successful? They seemed to do what was needed
from them. Perhaps they were too niche to get widespread appeal in a field
flooded with 66s. Will the 69s be any better loved?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 24/01/2024 18:44, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 23.01.2024 16:22, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:13:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>>>>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>>>>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>>>>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>>>>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>>>>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>>>>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>>>>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>>>>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>>>>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>>>>>> won't last forever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>>>>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>>>>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>>>>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>>>>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>>>>>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>>>>>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
>>>>>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>>>>>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
>>>>>> go?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Class 323, perhaps? 322 are all gone.
>>>>>
>>>>>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
>>>>>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>>>>>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 08s forever!
>>>>
>>>> Yes, indeed! I wonder if the battery electric conversion still counts
>>>> as a BR legacy product?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/10/20/british-pioneers-spark-new-battery-powered-life-into-centurion-shunter/
>>>
>>> While in principle conversions are a way to extend the life of rolling
>>> stock, in practice the track record has not exactly proven to be very
>>> successful. Of the various attempts to re-traction ex BR units, as well
>>> as the D78 stock have not proven to be particularly successful projects
>>> in practice, and I can't help but suspect they will not find long term use.
>>
>> The HST MTU engine conversion went pretty well, but I agree that most such
>> projects have had disappointing results. It'll be interesting to see how
>> the 69s do. The 08E seems well-conceived, retaining as much of the proven
>> original as possible.
>
> I wonder if the 57s count as successful? They seemed to do what was needed
> from them. Perhaps they were too niche to get widespread appeal in a field
> flooded with 66s. Will the 69s be any better loved?
>
> Sam
>
What about the 08/09/37s?

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 23.01.2024 16:22, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:13:28 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Looking at changes in rolling stock in the last few years, we have seen
>>>>>>> a lot of the legacy BR era passenger fleet being retired. In ex-NSE
>>>>>>> areas, recent years have seen the large scale replacement of the Mk3 era
>>>>>>> EMU fleets, with just the 455s hanging on in LSWR land, and there are
>>>>>>> suggestions that the 465/466 may not be around for too much longer. That
>>>>>>> leaves the 159 fleet (with 158 additions), and those 165/166 units still
>>>>>>> in the NSE era as the last remnants.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Intercity has seen the wide scale elimination of the legacy BR fleets
>>>>>>> too, with HSTs all but gone, Mk3 hauled stock replaced, and the Mk4
>>>>>>> fleets likely to be eliminated from IC services in the near future. Some
>>>>>>> have been cascaded to secondary services, but well worn rolling stock
>>>>>>> won't last forever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scotland is still keeping the 318s and 320s running, and various rural
>>>>>>> and commuter lines in other parts of England and Scotland maintaining
>>>>>>> their sprinter era fleets, as well as cascaded 165/166s in service (as
>>>>>>> well as the 323s). Those, however, won't last forever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What are the predictions of the uk.railway community for the end of the
>>>>>>> BR legacy fleet? Where will the last hold-outs be? I have my own
>>>>>>> thoughts, but I don't want to spoil the discussion by giving them just yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 165/166s were among the last BR stock to be built, and might be the
>>>>>> last BR DMUs to remain in service. EMUs normally last longer, but the DfT's
>>>>>> policy of encouraging TOCs to replace EMUs prematurely has meant that
>>>>>> there's a surplus of modern EMUs. I wonder if the 322s might be the last to
>>>>>> go?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Class 323, perhaps? 322 are all gone.
>>>>>
>>>>>> But BR locos might survive longer than units. Might there not be some class
>>>>>> 90s around for a number of years (not necessarily with whatever DBC
>>>>>> becomes)? Class 47s and even 73s might also survive in small numbers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 08s forever!
>>>>
>>>> Yes, indeed! I wonder if the battery electric conversion still counts
>>>> as a BR legacy product?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/10/20/british-pioneers-spark-new-battery-powered-life-into-centurion-shunter/
>>>
>>> While in principle conversions are a way to extend the life of rolling
>>> stock, in practice the track record has not exactly proven to be very
>>> successful. Of the various attempts to re-traction ex BR units, as well
>>> as the D78 stock have not proven to be particularly successful projects
>>> in practice, and I can't help but suspect they will not find long term use.
>>
>> The HST MTU engine conversion went pretty well, but I agree that most such
>> projects have had disappointing results. It'll be interesting to see how
>> the 69s do. The 08E seems well-conceived, retaining as much of the proven
>> original as possible.
>
> I wonder if the 57s count as successful? They seemed to do what was needed
> from them. Perhaps they were too niche to get widespread appeal in a field
> flooded with 66s. Will the 69s be any better loved?

I believe the 57s are quite unreliable, so there weren't follow-on orders.
The 69s seem more promising, but it's early days yet. Apparently they
out-perform 66s.