Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
they've already said. So here's my observations:

The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it. Neither is
true: it's sited well to the southwest of the shopping centre, and is a
long, inconvenient walk from it. In fact, it's designed to serve a
completely different development, Brent Cross Town, whose construction has
recently begun, but won't be complete for 15+ years. Presumably the station
couldn't be named after an area that doesn't yet exist, but it might be
renamed when it does.

Brent Cross Town is a typical urban regeneration scheme that is being
constructed on land formerly occupied by big shed retail and light
industrial manufacturing units. It will eventually include up to 6,700 new
homes, up to three million sq ft of office space, parks, sports facilities,
a university campus and the usual mix of retail, cafés and restaurants.

It sounds like quite a high density development, bounded by the MML and the
busy, elevated North Circular, with the M1 starting just to the north. But
Barnet Council, whose scheme this is, is making it sound like a bucolic
garden town, promoting its parks, lakes and carbon neutrality. When
finished, it is expected that up to 50,000 people will live, work and study
in what will be one of the UK’s largest net zero town centres.

The university campus is an offshoot from a university at the other end of
the MML, Sheffield Hallam. It will eventually have up to 5000 students,
both undergraduate and post-graduate.

With this large new development on its doorstep, the new station will need
to be big, and it is: four full-length (255m), wide platforms with long
canopies, entrances in two boroughs, seven lifts, seven escalators, ten
gates (two of which are wide). Five of the escalators go up, but only two
down. They are energy saving, crawling slowly until someone gets on (not
very often, currently). The station also serves as a public footbridge
between Barnet and Brent, over the six electrified tracks.

The MML tracks had to be slewed to make space for the wide island
platforms. Luckily, there was space in the adjacent railway lands. This
work, and building the long footbridge and ticket hall over the electrified
tracks had to be done without any extended closures of the busy MML.

The currently little-used zone 3 station has an almost Tube-like frequency,
with up to 8 tph in each direction, and a 15 minute journey time to St
Pancras. All scheduled services stop at the slow line platforms, but the
fast line platforms can be used for diversions, special events,
emergencies, etc.

The slow line platforms are better for customers, with up escalators, two
lifts and toilets. The sparser, little-used fast line platforms only have
stairs and a single lift. Access to the fast platforms is normally blocked
by folding gates upstairs. Both islands have heated waiting rooms.

There is no ticket office, only TVMs. Alcohol is banned, TfL-style, even
from the public footbridge.

The entrances in Barnet and Brent are very different. The larger Barnet
entrance is called the Arbour, and makes extensive use of Scandinavian
timber and vegetation which, when mature, will provide a central living
green screen. It has escalators in both directions, and a mezzanine landing
that may one day link to the future tall office buildings that will
sandwich the Arbour. It has a colourful 46m long tiled artwork by a local
artist, celebrating his late mother who worked in the shopping centre.

The much more austere Brent entrance has tall, hand-made rustic red brick
walls. It only has an up escalator, with descending passengers expected to
use the stairs or lifts.

It still has big shed retail around it, most of whose customers probably
come by car, not train. No doubt, tall apartment blocks will one day
replace the sheds.

The station has Braille and raised lettering labels on the staircase
handrails. Those are common in Switzerland, but I've not noticed them in
the UK before. There are also contrasting grooved walking routes to aid
partially sighted passengers. Again, these are common abroad, less so here.

There is step-free access from the street to the platforms, but not the
trains. This is apparently because of the variety of trains that use the
MML: platforms at the train floor height would need to be narrower, leaving
a gap.

Both entrances have bike storage under the stairs, but I don't think either
will have a car park. Both have bus stops, but the eastern entrance bus
stop isn't yet in use.

A few of my pictures:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720313873465

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>
> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it. Neither is
> true: it's sited well to the southwest of the shopping centre, and is a
> long, inconvenient walk from it. In fact, it's designed to serve a
> completely different development, Brent Cross Town, whose construction has
> recently begun, but won't be complete for 15+ years. Presumably the station
> couldn't be named after an area that doesn't yet exist, but it might be
> renamed when it does.
>
> Brent Cross Town is a typical urban regeneration scheme that is being
> constructed on land formerly occupied by big shed retail and light
> industrial manufacturing units. It will eventually include up to 6,700 new
> homes, up to three million sq ft of office space, parks, sports facilities,
> a university campus and the usual mix of retail, cafés and restaurants.
>
> It sounds like quite a high density development, bounded by the MML and the
> busy, elevated North Circular, with the M1 starting just to the north. But
> Barnet Council, whose scheme this is, is making it sound like a bucolic
> garden town, promoting its parks, lakes and carbon neutrality. When
> finished, it is expected that up to 50,000 people will live, work and study
> in what will be one of the UK’s largest net zero town centres.
>
> The university campus is an offshoot from a university at the other end of
> the MML, Sheffield Hallam. It will eventually have up to 5000 students,
> both undergraduate and post-graduate.
>
> With this large new development on its doorstep, the new station will need
> to be big, and it is: four full-length (255m), wide platforms with long
> canopies, entrances in two boroughs, seven lifts, seven escalators, ten
> gates (two of which are wide). Five of the escalators go up, but only two
> down. They are energy saving, crawling slowly until someone gets on (not
> very often, currently). The station also serves as a public footbridge
> between Barnet and Brent, over the six electrified tracks.
>
> The MML tracks had to be slewed to make space for the wide island
> platforms. Luckily, there was space in the adjacent railway lands. This
> work, and building the long footbridge and ticket hall over the electrified
> tracks had to be done without any extended closures of the busy MML.
>
> The currently little-used zone 3 station has an almost Tube-like frequency,
> with up to 8 tph in each direction, and a 15 minute journey time to St
> Pancras. All scheduled services stop at the slow line platforms, but the
> fast line platforms can be used for diversions, special events,
> emergencies, etc.
>
> The slow line platforms are better for customers, with up escalators, two
> lifts and toilets. The sparser, little-used fast line platforms only have
> stairs and a single lift. Access to the fast platforms is normally blocked
> by folding gates upstairs. Both islands have heated waiting rooms.
>
> There is no ticket office, only TVMs. Alcohol is banned, TfL-style, even
> from the public footbridge.
>
> The entrances in Barnet and Brent are very different. The larger Barnet
> entrance is called the Arbour, and makes extensive use of Scandinavian
> timber and vegetation which, when mature, will provide a central living
> green screen. It has escalators in both directions, and a mezzanine landing
> that may one day link to the future tall office buildings that will
> sandwich the Arbour. It has a colourful 46m long tiled artwork by a local
> artist, celebrating his late mother who worked in the shopping centre.
>
> The much more austere Brent entrance has tall, hand-made rustic red brick
> walls. It only has an up escalator, with descending passengers expected to
> use the stairs or lifts.
>
> It still has big shed retail around it, most of whose customers probably
> come by car, not train. No doubt, tall apartment blocks will one day
> replace the sheds.
>
> The station has Braille and raised lettering labels on the staircase
> handrails. Those are common in Switzerland, but I've not noticed them in
> the UK before. There are also contrasting grooved walking routes to aid
> partially sighted passengers. Again, these are common abroad, less so here.
>
> There is step-free access from the street to the platforms, but not the
> trains. This is apparently because of the variety of trains that use the
> MML: platforms at the train floor height would need to be narrower, leaving
> a gap.
>
> Both entrances have bike storage under the stairs, but I don't think either
> will have a car park. Both have bus stops, but the eastern entrance bus
> stop isn't yet in use.
>
> A few of my pictures:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720313873465
>
>
>

Sheffield Hallam - in their dreams. These universities are trying to build
London campuses to attract foreign students. China is already starting to
allow their students to only go to the top 100 overseas universities as
they’ve now got enough middle ranking ones of their own. All UK
universities are now scrabbling for Indian students to plug the gap. A lot
of the former poly universities are already in financial trouble and some
of the older ones are feeling the pinch.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>
>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it. Neither is
>> true: it's sited well to the southwest of the shopping centre, and is a
>> long, inconvenient walk from it. In fact, it's designed to serve a
>> completely different development, Brent Cross Town, whose construction has
>> recently begun, but won't be complete for 15+ years. Presumably the station
>> couldn't be named after an area that doesn't yet exist, but it might be
>> renamed when it does.
>>
>> Brent Cross Town is a typical urban regeneration scheme that is being
>> constructed on land formerly occupied by big shed retail and light
>> industrial manufacturing units. It will eventually include up to 6,700 new
>> homes, up to three million sq ft of office space, parks, sports facilities,
>> a university campus and the usual mix of retail, cafés and restaurants.
>>
>> It sounds like quite a high density development, bounded by the MML and the
>> busy, elevated North Circular, with the M1 starting just to the north. But
>> Barnet Council, whose scheme this is, is making it sound like a bucolic
>> garden town, promoting its parks, lakes and carbon neutrality. When
>> finished, it is expected that up to 50,000 people will live, work and study
>> in what will be one of the UK’s largest net zero town centres.
>>
>> The university campus is an offshoot from a university at the other end of
>> the MML, Sheffield Hallam. It will eventually have up to 5000 students,
>> both undergraduate and post-graduate.
>>
>> With this large new development on its doorstep, the new station will need
>> to be big, and it is: four full-length (255m), wide platforms with long
>> canopies, entrances in two boroughs, seven lifts, seven escalators, ten
>> gates (two of which are wide). Five of the escalators go up, but only two
>> down. They are energy saving, crawling slowly until someone gets on (not
>> very often, currently). The station also serves as a public footbridge
>> between Barnet and Brent, over the six electrified tracks.
>>
>> The MML tracks had to be slewed to make space for the wide island
>> platforms. Luckily, there was space in the adjacent railway lands. This
>> work, and building the long footbridge and ticket hall over the electrified
>> tracks had to be done without any extended closures of the busy MML.
>>
>> The currently little-used zone 3 station has an almost Tube-like frequency,
>> with up to 8 tph in each direction, and a 15 minute journey time to St
>> Pancras. All scheduled services stop at the slow line platforms, but the
>> fast line platforms can be used for diversions, special events,
>> emergencies, etc.
>>
>> The slow line platforms are better for customers, with up escalators, two
>> lifts and toilets. The sparser, little-used fast line platforms only have
>> stairs and a single lift. Access to the fast platforms is normally blocked
>> by folding gates upstairs. Both islands have heated waiting rooms.
>>
>> There is no ticket office, only TVMs. Alcohol is banned, TfL-style, even
>> from the public footbridge.
>>
>> The entrances in Barnet and Brent are very different. The larger Barnet
>> entrance is called the Arbour, and makes extensive use of Scandinavian
>> timber and vegetation which, when mature, will provide a central living
>> green screen. It has escalators in both directions, and a mezzanine landing
>> that may one day link to the future tall office buildings that will
>> sandwich the Arbour. It has a colourful 46m long tiled artwork by a local
>> artist, celebrating his late mother who worked in the shopping centre.
>>
>> The much more austere Brent entrance has tall, hand-made rustic red brick
>> walls. It only has an up escalator, with descending passengers expected to
>> use the stairs or lifts.
>>
>> It still has big shed retail around it, most of whose customers probably
>> come by car, not train. No doubt, tall apartment blocks will one day
>> replace the sheds.
>>
>> The station has Braille and raised lettering labels on the staircase
>> handrails. Those are common in Switzerland, but I've not noticed them in
>> the UK before. There are also contrasting grooved walking routes to aid
>> partially sighted passengers. Again, these are common abroad, less so here.
>>
>> There is step-free access from the street to the platforms, but not the
>> trains. This is apparently because of the variety of trains that use the
>> MML: platforms at the train floor height would need to be narrower, leaving
>> a gap.
>>
>> Both entrances have bike storage under the stairs, but I don't think either
>> will have a car park. Both have bus stops, but the eastern entrance bus
>> stop isn't yet in use.
>>
>> A few of my pictures:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720313873465
>>
>>
>>
>
> Sheffield Hallam - in their dreams.

It's apparently pre-leased 110,000 sq ft in a 13 storey building that will
flank the Arbour station entrance:
https://www.standard.co.uk/business/regional-universities-rush-to-grab-space-in-london-sheffield-hallam-b1062314.html

This is the site:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/53448474401/in/album-72177720313873465/

> These universities are trying to build
> London campuses to attract foreign students. China is already starting to
> allow their students to only go to the top 100 overseas universities as
> they’ve now got enough middle ranking ones of their own.

Does that only apply to Chinese government-supported students? I think
many are funded by their own families.

> All UK
> universities are now scrabbling for Indian students to plug the gap. A lot
> of the former poly universities are already in financial trouble and some
> of the older ones are feeling the pinch.

Interesting. Yes, I think the second tier unis are also targeting west
African students with rich parents. Like Indian students, many already
speak passable English and went to schools based using British-derived
methods.

This is also interesting. It agrees that Chinese student numbers in the UK
will peak, and then gently decline:

https://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202302/10/WS63e59f6ca31057c47ebae064.html

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>they've already said. So here's my observations:
>
>The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>
The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
etc.
<snip>

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>
>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>>
> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
> etc.

True.

But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
it's something of a shiny ghost station.

So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
now is a good time to visit.

On 09.01.2024 02:02, Recliner wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>>
>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>>>
>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
>> etc.
>
> True.
>
> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>
> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
> now is a good time to visit.

Obviously the developers will be more interested in having the station
already open, as they can attract a higher sales price for their units
for a "station with good service just round the corner" than with a
"station might be built in a few years perhaps". It also means all the
disruption, noise and traffic associated with building the station will
happen when there is also a whole bunch of disruption, noise and traffic
from building the new housing, rather than after the housing is build
and being lived in. Same sort of thing happend with Barking Riverside,
which currently is a station in a windswept desolate empty space by the
river, but when the housing in the area is built, might prove reasonably
useful for the new residents.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 09.01.2024 02:02, Recliner wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>>>
>>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>>>>
>>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
>>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
>>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
>>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
>>> etc.
>>
>> True.
>>
>> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>>
>> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>> now is a good time to visit.
>
> Obviously the developers will be more interested in having the station
> already open, as they can attract a higher sales price for their units
> for a "station with good service just round the corner" than with a
> "station might be built in a few years perhaps". It also means all the
> disruption, noise and traffic associated with building the station will
> happen when there is also a whole bunch of disruption, noise and traffic
> from building the new housing, rather than after the housing is build
> and being lived in. Same sort of thing happend with Barking Riverside,
> which currently is a station in a windswept desolate empty space by the
> river, but when the housing in the area is built, might prove reasonably
> useful for the new residents.

Yes, my first thought was to compare this new station to Barking Riverside,
but there are many differences. The latter has a working school, and many
occupied new properties, nearby. It also has working bus routes. And it's a
much smaller station, with a less frequent service from shorter trains, so
each train leaves with a reasonable number of passengers. Brent Cross Town
just consists of building sites, most of which have yet to start
construction.

The area next to Barking Riverside:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52412966887/in/album-72177720301633130/lightbox/

On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 01:02:20 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>>
>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>>>
>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
>> etc.
>
>True.
>
>But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>
>So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>now is a good time to visit.
>
"Brent Cross Town" is on just as shaky foundations. It is as much a
nonsense as e.g. "North Maida Vale" (i.e. Kilburn). The station is in
Cricklewood; "North Cricklewood" would be more truthful and
geographically accurate.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 01:02:20 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>>>
>>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>>>>
>>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
>>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
>>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
>>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
>>> etc.
>>
>> True.
>>
>> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>>
>> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>> now is a good time to visit.
>>
> "Brent Cross Town" is on just as shaky foundations. It is as much a
> nonsense as e.g. "North Maida Vale" (i.e. Kilburn). The station is in
> Cricklewood; "North Cricklewood" would be more truthful and
> geographically accurate.

I'm simply saying that the station should named after the new area it's
built to serve. And that's Brent Cross Town, not North Cricklewood.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/53447551782/in/album-72177720313873465/

On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 08:32:38 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 09.01.2024 02:02, Recliner wrote:
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>>>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>>>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>>>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>>>>
>>>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>>>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>>>>>
>>>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
>>>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
>>>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
>>>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
>>>> etc.
>>>
>>> True.
>>>
>>> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>>> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>>> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>>> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>>> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>>> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>>> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>>>
>>> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>>> now is a good time to visit.
>>
>> Obviously the developers will be more interested in having the station
>> already open, as they can attract a higher sales price for their units
>> for a "station with good service just round the corner" than with a
>> "station might be built in a few years perhaps". It also means all the
>> disruption, noise and traffic associated with building the station will
>> happen when there is also a whole bunch of disruption, noise and traffic
>> from building the new housing, rather than after the housing is build
>> and being lived in. Same sort of thing happend with Barking Riverside,
>> which currently is a station in a windswept desolate empty space by the
>> river, but when the housing in the area is built, might prove reasonably
>> useful for the new residents.
>
>Yes, my first thought was to compare this new station to Barking Riverside,
>but there are many differences. The latter has a working school, and many
>occupied new properties, nearby. It also has working bus routes. And it's a
>much smaller station, with a less frequent service from shorter trains, so
>each train leaves with a reasonable number of passengers. Brent Cross Town
>just consists of building sites, most of which have yet to start
>construction.
>
>The area next to Barking Riverside:
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52412966887/in/album-72177720301633130/lightbox/
>
The area surrounding Brent Cross west is not exactly bare. There is a
several years old warehouse-style shopping area on the west side and
the many years old Clitterhouse estate on the east side. Not much
further away on the west side is the Oxgate Farm area from which it is
an even longer walk to the three local Jubilee Line stations.

On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 01:02:20 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>True.
>
>But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>
>So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>now is a good time to visit.
>

All of the above applies equally to Meridian Water and, from what I
could see, to Barking Riverside.

On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 08:54:50 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 01:02:20 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>>>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>>>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>>>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>>>>
>>>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>>>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>>>>>
>>>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
>>>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
>>>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
>>>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
>>>> etc.
>>>
>>> True.
>>>
>>> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>>> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>>> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>>> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>>> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>>> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>>> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>>>
>>> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>>> now is a good time to visit.
>>>
>> "Brent Cross Town" is on just as shaky foundations. It is as much a
>> nonsense as e.g. "North Maida Vale" (i.e. Kilburn). The station is in
>> Cricklewood; "North Cricklewood" would be more truthful and
>> geographically accurate.
>
>I'm simply saying that the station should named after the new area it's
>built to serve. And that's Brent Cross Town, not North Cricklewood.
>
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/53447551782/in/album-72177720313873465/
>
Or one of the two larger local areas it is actually likely to serve so
Oxgate Station or Clitterhouse station. I suspect the former might
have more chance.

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 01:02:20 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> True.
>>
>> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>>
>> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>> now is a good time to visit.
>>
>
> All of the above applies equally to Meridian Water and, from what I
> could see, to Barking Riverside.
>

No, both of those are in more developed areas, and the (less frequent,
shorter) trains are busier.

I'm certainly not against the concept of building transport infrastructure
before it's needed, just commenting on how unusually early this station has
not only been completed (seven years before the original date), but is
already getting a good rail (6-8 tph) service.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 08:54:50 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 01:02:20 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>>>>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>>>>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>>>>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>>>>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
>>>>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
>>>>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
>>>>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
>>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> True.
>>>>
>>>> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>>>> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>>>> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>>>> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>>>> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>>>> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>>>> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>>>>
>>>> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>>>> now is a good time to visit.
>>>>
>>> "Brent Cross Town" is on just as shaky foundations. It is as much a
>>> nonsense as e.g. "North Maida Vale" (i.e. Kilburn). The station is in
>>> Cricklewood; "North Cricklewood" would be more truthful and
>>> geographically accurate.
>>
>> I'm simply saying that the station should named after the new area it's
>> built to serve. And that's Brent Cross Town, not North Cricklewood.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/53447551782/in/album-72177720313873465/
>>
> Or one of the two larger local areas it is actually likely to serve so
> Oxgate Station or Clitterhouse station. I suspect the former might
> have more chance.
>

https://brentcrosstown.co.uk/media/201127-BXT-Overview-Boards.pdf

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 08:54:50 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 01:02:20 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>>>>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>>>>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>>>>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>>>>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
>>>>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
>>>>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
>>>>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
>>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> True.
>>>>
>>>> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>>>> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>>>> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>>>> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>>>> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>>>> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>>>> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>>>>
>>>> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>>>> now is a good time to visit.
>>>>
>>> "Brent Cross Town" is on just as shaky foundations. It is as much a
>>> nonsense as e.g. "North Maida Vale" (i.e. Kilburn). The station is in
>>> Cricklewood; "North Cricklewood" would be more truthful and
>>> geographically accurate.
>>
>> I'm simply saying that the station should named after the new area it's
>> built to serve. And that's Brent Cross Town, not North Cricklewood.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/53447551782/in/album-72177720313873465/
>>
> Or one of the two larger local areas it is actually likely to serve so
> Oxgate Station or Clitterhouse station. I suspect the former might
> have more chance.

The Oxgate area is about a 15 minute walk from the station, and involves
getting across the busy Edgware Road. It's also in the wrong borough.

Brent Cross Town will be immediately adjacent to the station, with a couple
of the buildings physically connected to it. The whole point of the
expensive new station was to facilitate its development.

On 09.01.2024 09:32, Recliner wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 09.01.2024 02:02, Recliner wrote:
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>>>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>>>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>>>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>>>>
>>>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>>>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>>>>>
>>>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
>>>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
>>>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
>>>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
>>>> etc.
>>>
>>> True.
>>>
>>> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>>> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>>> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>>> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>>> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>>> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>>> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>>>
>>> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>>> now is a good time to visit.
>>
>> Obviously the developers will be more interested in having the station
>> already open, as they can attract a higher sales price for their units
>> for a "station with good service just round the corner" than with a
>> "station might be built in a few years perhaps". It also means all the
>> disruption, noise and traffic associated with building the station will
>> happen when there is also a whole bunch of disruption, noise and traffic
>> from building the new housing, rather than after the housing is build
>> and being lived in. Same sort of thing happend with Barking Riverside,
>> which currently is a station in a windswept desolate empty space by the
>> river, but when the housing in the area is built, might prove reasonably
>> useful for the new residents.
>
> Yes, my first thought was to compare this new station to Barking Riverside,
> but there are many differences. The latter has a working school, and many
> occupied new properties, nearby. It also has working bus routes. And it's a
> much smaller station, with a less frequent service from shorter trains, so
> each train leaves with a reasonable number of passengers. Brent Cross Town
> just consists of building sites, most of which have yet to start
> construction.
>
> The area next to Barking Riverside:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52412966887/in/album-72177720301633130/lightbox/

Brent Cross West is an intermediate stop on Thameslink. The length and
frequency of trains is governed by the needs of the route as a whole.
One station with temporarily low footfall makes a negligible difference
to the train service overall. Barking Riverside, on the other hand, is
at the end of a branch that serves no other purpose than to serve
Barking Riverside. It comes down to what the actual marginal cost is to
having the station open now with low traffic for a while. It doesn't
seem to me there is a good reason to sit on a finished station and leave
it closed, rather than provide the service that might have a small
benefit to a few people until the construction projects around it are done.

Robin

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 12:36:53 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:

>On 09.01.2024 09:32, Recliner wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 09.01.2024 02:02, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>>>>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>>>>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>>>>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>>>>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
>>>>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
>>>>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
>>>>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
>>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> True.
>>>>
>>>> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>>>> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>>>> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>>>> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>>>> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>>>> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>>>> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>>>>
>>>> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>>>> now is a good time to visit.
>>>
>>> Obviously the developers will be more interested in having the station
>>> already open, as they can attract a higher sales price for their units
>>> for a "station with good service just round the corner" than with a
>>> "station might be built in a few years perhaps". It also means all the
>>> disruption, noise and traffic associated with building the station will
>>> happen when there is also a whole bunch of disruption, noise and traffic
>>> from building the new housing, rather than after the housing is build
>>> and being lived in. Same sort of thing happend with Barking Riverside,
>>> which currently is a station in a windswept desolate empty space by the
>>> river, but when the housing in the area is built, might prove reasonably
>>> useful for the new residents.
>>
>> Yes, my first thought was to compare this new station to Barking Riverside,
>> but there are many differences. The latter has a working school, and many
>> occupied new properties, nearby. It also has working bus routes. And it's a
>> much smaller station, with a less frequent service from shorter trains, so
>> each train leaves with a reasonable number of passengers. Brent Cross Town
>> just consists of building sites, most of which have yet to start
>> construction.
>>
>> The area next to Barking Riverside:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52412966887/in/album-72177720301633130/lightbox/
>
>Brent Cross West is an intermediate stop on Thameslink. The length and
>frequency of trains is governed by the needs of the route as a whole.
>One station with temporarily low footfall makes a negligible difference
>to the train service overall. Barking Riverside, on the other hand, is
>at the end of a branch that serves no other purpose than to serve
>Barking Riverside. It comes down to what the actual marginal cost is to
>having the station open now with low traffic for a while. It doesn't
>seem to me there is a good reason to sit on a finished station and leave
>it closed, rather than provide the service that might have a small
>benefit to a few people until the construction projects around it are done.

I'm not suggesting that it should be left closed, merely commenting that this large station was built unusually early
for a regeneration project. It had originally been planned to open in 2030 (when the new area might be 40% complete),
but it was accelerated to be complete and open well before any of the new buildings are finished.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 12:36:53 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>
> >On 09.01.2024 09:32, Recliner wrote:
> >> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> >>> On 09.01.2024 02:02, Recliner wrote:
> >>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
> >>>>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
> >>>>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
> >>>>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
> >>>>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
> >>>>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
> >>>>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
> >>>>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
> >>>>> etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> True.
> >>>>
> >>>> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
> >>>> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
> >>>> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
> >>>> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
> >>>> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
> >>>> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
> >>>> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
> >>>>
> >>>> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
> >>>> now is a good time to visit.
> >>>
> >>> Obviously the developers will be more interested in having the station
> >>> already open, as they can attract a higher sales price for their units
> >>> for a "station with good service just round the corner" than with a
> >>> "station might be built in a few years perhaps". It also means all the
> >>> disruption, noise and traffic associated with building the station will
> >>> happen when there is also a whole bunch of disruption, noise and traffic
> >>> from building the new housing, rather than after the housing is build
> >>> and being lived in. Same sort of thing happend with Barking Riverside,
> >>> which currently is a station in a windswept desolate empty space by the
> >>> river, but when the housing in the area is built, might prove reasonably
> >>> useful for the new residents.
> >>
> >> Yes, my first thought was to compare this new station to Barking Riverside,
> >> but there are many differences. The latter has a working school, and many
> >> occupied new properties, nearby. It also has working bus routes. And it's a
> >> much smaller station, with a less frequent service from shorter trains, so
> >> each train leaves with a reasonable number of passengers. Brent Cross Town
> >> just consists of building sites, most of which have yet to start
> >> construction.
> >>
> >> The area next to Barking Riverside:
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52412966887/in/album-72177720301633130/lightbox/
> >
> >Brent Cross West is an intermediate stop on Thameslink. The length and
> >frequency of trains is governed by the needs of the route as a whole.
> >One station with temporarily low footfall makes a negligible difference
> >to the train service overall. Barking Riverside, on the other hand, is
> >at the end of a branch that serves no other purpose than to serve
> >Barking Riverside. It comes down to what the actual marginal cost is to
> >having the station open now with low traffic for a while. It doesn't
> >seem to me there is a good reason to sit on a finished station and leave
> >it closed, rather than provide the service that might have a small
> >benefit to a few people until the construction projects around it are done.
>
> I'm not suggesting that it should be left closed, merely commenting that
> this large station was built unusually early for a regeneration project.
> It had originally been planned to open in 2030 (when the new area might be
> 40% complete), but it was accelerated to be complete and open well before
> any of the new buildings are finished.

I think it's well understood in planning circles that you need to have
transport infrastructure in place before occupants move in, while they're
still in the habit forming stage.

It's one thing to move in and decide how you're going to get about. At that
point people are having to make new plans for everything, and deciding to
use the train / bus / buy a bike etc is on the table as a plausible option.

But if you need to buy a car to get about because there are no other options
when you move in, it's a much bigger deal to decide to sell your car because
the public transport options are now good enough. The habits are ingrained,
and some of the decisions made are later hard to unpick (eg sending the kids
to a school which needs the use of a car, against another reachable by
public transport).

This is especially important in a place like London, where the first
buildings may not even be viable to open without transport in place (eg if
they are built without parking but no public transport - people won't move
there, or if they do there will be a big fly-parking problem).

Theo

On 09 Jan 2024 13:06:40 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 12:36:53 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On 09.01.2024 09:32, Recliner wrote:
>> >> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> >>> On 09.01.2024 02:02, Recliner wrote:
>> >>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 17:42:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Brent Cross West station opened four weeks ago, but I didn't manage to get
>> >>>>>> there till last week. In the meantime, the usual bloggers have published
>> >>>>>> good, well-illustrated reports on it, so I don't propose to repeat what
>> >>>>>> they've already said. So here's my observations:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The name is misleading. It suggests that the station is sited to the west
>> >>>>>> of the eponymous shopping centre, and is designed to serve it.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> The eponymy derives from a slightly more proximate road junction not
>> >>>>> the shopping centre. It seems fully within the tradition of naming
>> >>>>> stations after somewhere that the station is not immediately adjacent
>> >>>>> to, e.g. Kingsbury, <insert placename> Road, Clapham Junction etc.
>> >>>>> etc.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> True.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But, in this case, the station would probably be better named Brent Cross
>> >>>> Town, the brand new neighbourhood that is being built around it. I gather
>> >>>> that the original plan had been been to build the new station a few years
>> >>>> later, when the new 'town' was partly complete and occupied, but Barnet
>> >>>> Council realised that the regeneration area would succeed more quickly if
>> >>>> the station was already open. I'm sure they're right in that, but for now,
>> >>>> it's something of a shiny ghost station.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So, if you like taking pictures of unpopulated, spacious railway stations,
>> >>>> now is a good time to visit.
>> >>>
>> >>> Obviously the developers will be more interested in having the station
>> >>> already open, as they can attract a higher sales price for their units
>> >>> for a "station with good service just round the corner" than with a
>> >>> "station might be built in a few years perhaps". It also means all the
>> >>> disruption, noise and traffic associated with building the station will
>> >>> happen when there is also a whole bunch of disruption, noise and traffic
>> >>> from building the new housing, rather than after the housing is build
>> >>> and being lived in. Same sort of thing happend with Barking Riverside,
>> >>> which currently is a station in a windswept desolate empty space by the
>> >>> river, but when the housing in the area is built, might prove reasonably
>> >>> useful for the new residents.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, my first thought was to compare this new station to Barking Riverside,
>> >> but there are many differences. The latter has a working school, and many
>> >> occupied new properties, nearby. It also has working bus routes. And it's a
>> >> much smaller station, with a less frequent service from shorter trains, so
>> >> each train leaves with a reasonable number of passengers. Brent Cross Town
>> >> just consists of building sites, most of which have yet to start
>> >> construction.
>> >>
>> >> The area next to Barking Riverside:
>> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52412966887/in/album-72177720301633130/lightbox/
>> >
>> >Brent Cross West is an intermediate stop on Thameslink. The length and
>> >frequency of trains is governed by the needs of the route as a whole.
>> >One station with temporarily low footfall makes a negligible difference
>> >to the train service overall. Barking Riverside, on the other hand, is
>> >at the end of a branch that serves no other purpose than to serve
>> >Barking Riverside. It comes down to what the actual marginal cost is to
>> >having the station open now with low traffic for a while. It doesn't
>> >seem to me there is a good reason to sit on a finished station and leave
>> >it closed, rather than provide the service that might have a small
>> >benefit to a few people until the construction projects around it are done.
>>
>> I'm not suggesting that it should be left closed, merely commenting that
>> this large station was built unusually early for a regeneration project.
>> It had originally been planned to open in 2030 (when the new area might be
>> 40% complete), but it was accelerated to be complete and open well before
>> any of the new buildings are finished.
>
>I think it's well understood in planning circles that you need to have
>transport infrastructure in place before occupants move in, while they're
>still in the habit forming stage.
>
>It's one thing to move in and decide how you're going to get about. At that
>point people are having to make new plans for everything, and deciding to
>use the train / bus / buy a bike etc is on the table as a plausible option.
>
>But if you need to buy a car to get about because there are no other options
>when you move in, it's a much bigger deal to decide to sell your car because
>the public transport options are now good enough. The habits are ingrained,
>and some of the decisions made are later hard to unpick (eg sending the kids
>to a school which needs the use of a car, against another reachable by
>public transport).
>
>This is especially important in a place like London, where the first
>buildings may not even be viable to open without transport in place (eg if
>they are built without parking but no public transport - people won't move
>there, or if they do there will be a big fly-parking problem).

There area isn't entirely without public transport. There are two other Thameslink stations not too far away, as well as
Brent Cross Tube station and multiple bus routes. It wouldn't be hard to add more bus routes, as is indeed planned (but
not yet).

I get the impression that the station was brought forward particularly under pressure from Sheffield Hallam University.
Basically, it wasn't prepared to open its new campus without the next-door station being open. Many of its future
students will presumably not be living in the immediate vicinity, and need good public transport to get to college. And
the affluent foreign students that the university targets probably wouldn't come without the rail link. Now that the
station is open, the university plans to open its new campus in autumn 2026.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> There area isn't entirely without public transport. There are two other
> Thameslink stations not too far away, as well as Brent Cross Tube station
> and multiple bus routes. It wouldn't be hard to add more bus routes, as
> is indeed planned (but not yet).

That's something. Also another thing to point out is that building sites
aren't desolate wastelands of mud, at least on weekdays - they're the place
of employment for hundreds or thousands of people. Some of those will be
self-employed with a van full of tools, but for many the site is 'the
office' and everything is provided there.

A bike shop in Cambridge did a roaring trade from builders on a nearby
development site - the builders would arrive at the station by train in the
morning, cycle to the site, and leave their bikes at the shop to be mended
while they were at work.

So there will still be demand, even without anything having opened yet.

> I get the impression that the station was brought forward particularly
> under pressure from Sheffield Hallam University. Basically, it wasn't
> prepared to open its new campus without the next-door station being open.
> Many of its future students will presumably not be living in the immediate
> vicinity, and need good public transport to get to college. And the
> affluent foreign students that the university targets probably wouldn't
> come without the rail link. Now that the station is open, the university
> plans to open its new campus in autumn 2026.

I wonder how that will work for staff - are they going to be commuting back
and forth from there to Sheffield? There won't be direct trains, can you do
it in two trains now EMR are making fewer stops at Bedford and Luton? Or do
you have to double back at St Pancras?

It's a bit disappointing there's no station on the MML where most commuter and
intercity trains stop, so you can switch from one to another: like Reading,
Peterborough, Woking, etc.

Theo

On 09 Jan 2024 14:20:26 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There area isn't entirely without public transport. There are two other
>> Thameslink stations not too far away, as well as Brent Cross Tube station
>> and multiple bus routes. It wouldn't be hard to add more bus routes, as
>> is indeed planned (but not yet).
>
>That's something. Also another thing to point out is that building sites
>aren't desolate wastelands of mud, at least on weekdays - they're the place
>of employment for hundreds or thousands of people. Some of those will be
>self-employed with a van full of tools, but for many the site is 'the
>office' and everything is provided there.

I'm going to speculate that most pf the builders won't be coming from along the Thameslink route, or central London.
But, yes, for the few that do, the train service will be very handy.

>
>A bike shop in Cambridge did a roaring trade from builders on a nearby
>development site - the builders would arrive at the station by train in the
>morning, cycle to the site, and leave their bikes at the shop to be mended
>while they were at work.
>
>So there will still be demand, even without anything having opened yet.
>
>> I get the impression that the station was brought forward particularly
>> under pressure from Sheffield Hallam University. Basically, it wasn't
>> prepared to open its new campus without the next-door station being open.
>> Many of its future students will presumably not be living in the immediate
>> vicinity, and need good public transport to get to college. And the
>> affluent foreign students that the university targets probably wouldn't
>> come without the rail link. Now that the station is open, the university
>> plans to open its new campus in autumn 2026.
>
>I wonder how that will work for staff - are they going to be commuting back
>and forth from there to Sheffield?

It will be a large campus — up to 5000 students, so I assume there will be locally-based staff. Staff visiting from
Sheffield will presumably stay for a few days, or even a term.

> There won't be direct trains, can you do
>it in two trains now EMR are making fewer stops at Bedford and Luton? Or do
>you have to double back at St Pancras?

I think, the latter. Otherwise, it would be a TL train to Luton, then an EMR Connect train to Kettering, then EMR to
Sheffield.

>
>It's a bit disappointing there's no station on the MML where most commuter and
>intercity trains stop, so you can switch from one to another: like Reading,
>Peterborough, Woking, etc.

Yes, EMR seems to have deliberately dropped Luton or Bedford from that role.

In message <UCk*kw1zz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 14:20:26 on Tue,
9 Jan 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:

>It's a bit disappointing there's no station on the MML where most commuter and
>intercity trains stop, so you can switch from one to another: like Reading,
>Peterborough, Woking, etc.

It has a name: "St Albanisation".

And it's got worse, since they effectively St Albanised Bedford.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <UCk*kw1zz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 14:20:26 on Tue,
> 9 Jan 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>
> >It's a bit disappointing there's no station on the MML where most commuter and
> >intercity trains stop, so you can switch from one to another: like Reading,
> >Peterborough, Woking, etc.
>
> It has a name: "St Albanisation".

Not familiar with the south WCML but does MKC now cover that role? Not all
Avanti trains stop, of course, but some do.

> And it's got worse, since they effectively St Albanised Bedford.

I would have thought that Luton Airport Parkway would be a good place to
interchange, in the way Gatwick is. There must be a decent chunk of traffic
to the airport from Leicester, Nottingham etc, especially with the opening
of DART. Maybe EMR don't want Luton passengers on Meridians from London,
but that's fixable with pick up/set down restrictions.

Theo

On 09/01/2024 18:30, Theo wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <UCk*kw1zz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 14:20:26 on Tue,
>> 9 Jan 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> It's a bit disappointing there's no station on the MML where most commuter and
>>> intercity trains stop, so you can switch from one to another: like Reading,
>>> Peterborough, Woking, etc.
>>
>> It has a name: "St Albanisation".
>
> Not familiar with the south WCML but does MKC now cover that role? Not all
> Avanti trains stop, of course, but some do.
>
>> And it's got worse, since they effectively St Albanised Bedford.
>
> I would have thought that Luton Airport Parkway would be a good place to
> interchange, in the way Gatwick is. There must be a decent chunk of traffic
> to the airport from Leicester, Nottingham etc, especially with the opening
> of DART. Maybe EMR don't want Luton passengers on Meridians from London,
> but that's fixable with pick up/set down restrictions.
>
> Theo

They probably think it is a good idea to discourage short distance
travel when they have replaced proper-length trains (HSTs) by toy trains
(Meridians), many of which have only 3 and a bit coaches of standard
class seating.

Also DfT seems to think that London is the ONLY destination requiring
travel to/from The "Midlands" or "North".

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 09 Jan 2024 14:20:26 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
..
>>
>> I wonder how that will work for staff - are they going to be commuting back
>> and forth from there to Sheffield?
>
> It will be a large campus — up to 5000 students, so I assume there will
> be locally-based staff. Staff visiting from
> Sheffield will presumably stay for a few days, or even a term.
>
>> There won't be direct trains, can you do
>> it in two trains now EMR are making fewer stops at Bedford and Luton? Or do
>> you have to double back at St Pancras?
>
> I think, the latter. Otherwise, it would be a TL train to Luton, then an
> EMR Connect train to Kettering, then EMR to
> Sheffield.

I subsequently realised that Sheffield trains don't stop at Kettering, so
yet another change would be required. So it makes much more sense to go via
St Pancras, at least with current ttimetables. Conceivably, in a decade's
time, it might be worth stopping a few Sheffield trains at the new station
or LUT, or even running a few specials.