https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sycamore-gap-tree-cut-down-latest-news-b2421435.html

People are rightly dismayed at the vandalism and the loss of an iconic tree.

The vandalism to the main Western astronomical insight where the motion of the slower moving planet is accounted for by the Earth's orbital motion-

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

Few have felt anything like the immeasurable sorrow of seeing it vandalised by people who either suit themselves or don't know what they are doing-

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct(ly),..." Newton

The seeds of recovery are in the separate resolution applied to the faster-moving inner planets seen from a slower-moving Earth-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uCtot1aDg

Thugs and vandals take no account of what was destroyed and perhaps never will.

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 2:57:53 AM UTC+1, RichA wrote:
> On Saturday, 30 September 2023 at 15:01:49 UTC-4, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
> > https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sycamore-gap-tree-cut-down-latest-news-b2421435.html
> >
> > People are rightly dismayed at the vandalism and the loss of an iconic tree.
> >
> > The vandalism to the main Western astronomical insight where the motion of the slower moving planet is accounted for by the Earth's orbital motion-
> >
> > https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html
> >
> > Few have felt anything like the immeasurable sorrow of seeing it vandalised by people who either suit themselves or don't know what they are doing-
> >
> > "For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
> > stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
> > always seen direct(ly),..." Newton
> >
> > The seeds of recovery are in the separate resolution applied to the faster-moving inner planets seen from a slower-moving Earth-
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uCtot1aDg
> >
> > Thugs and vandals take no account of what was destroyed and perhaps never will.
> You will see an escalating problem of people doing things to achieve notoriety. To be "known" is the goal of a lot of malcontents these days, it's more important to them than health, freedom or money.

I appreciate the reply and the sentiment. A broken heart is so much different than a broken mind looking for attention or notoriety.

In some ways, through experience in this newsgroup, many people are afraid to stand out for the love of terrestrial, solar system, and larger research.. In this case, the term 'amateur' is not someone who does something as a pastime or hobby as opposed to someone who does something for money and reputation ( professional), but someone who is an amator ( Latin; lover) of creation.

I have no problem with those who get paid or have a reputation so long as they maintain integrity, however, there is nothing to love in their self-aggrandising endeavours where there is an abundance of imaging and geometry in motion at the core of all observations, interpretations and conclusions. I want people to succeed rather than continue with the vandalism inherited from an era where imaging wasn't available.

"When a natural discourse paints a passion or an effect, one feels
within oneself the truth of what one reads, which was there before,
although one did not know it. Hence one is inclined to love him who
makes us feel it, for he has not shown us his own riches, but ours.
And thus this benefit renders him pleasing to us, besides that such
community of intellect as we have with him necessarily inclines the
heart to love." Pascal

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 3:53:24 AM UTC-6, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
> I want people to succeed rather than continue with the vandalism inherited from an era where imaging wasn't available.

That is a positive sentiment.

I wish I knew how to help you to succeed, though. Isaac Newton was no vandal; he crowned the work of Copernicus,
Galileo, and Kepler with complete success, explaining why the planets _must_ move in the way they proposed,
thereby ending the debate over the world systems, and creating a framework on which greater things could be
built - such as the discovery of Neptune, which could only have been achieved thanks to Newton's law of universal
gravitation.

Newton opened our eyes, and when you stand there arguing the advantages of being blind, no real engagement
with that viewpoint is even possible.

Alexander Pope's famous couplet expresses the truth you have yet to see:
Nature and Nature's laws
Lay hid in night;
God said, "Let Newton be",
And all was light.

John Savard

Enough has been said over the years about the nature of the vandalism centred on direct/retrograde observations, their interpretation and the difference between the proper conclusions and the false perspective of Newton represented by his absolute/relative space and motion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Kepler#/media/File:Kepler_Mars_retrograde.jpg

That diagram represents the orbital motion of the Earth and Mars using the background stars as a gauge and not a geocentric/geostationary notion imagined by the theorists going back to the late 17th century. There is no absolute/relative space and motion distinction where motions seen from the Earth ( relative motions) are resolved by motions seen from the Sun, hence-

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are always seen direct,..." Newton

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap181108.html

"Copernicus, by attributing a single annual motion to the Earth, entirely rids the planets of these extremely intricate coils, leading the individual planets into their respective orbits, quite bare and very nearly circular. In the period of time shown in the diagram, Mars traverses one and the same orbit as many times as the 'garlands' you see looped towards the centre, with one extra, making nine times, while at the same time, the Earth repeats its circle sixteen times " Kepler Astronomia Nova 1609

Vandals and thugs are left in wretched silence as is their custom yet all the uncovering is designed to re-energise consideration of terrestrial and solar system research and most certainly the connection between the two components as a point of departure.

I deal with the vandalism as a responsible human being among those who have no feeling for what Newton attempted to do never mind what the original heliostatic astronomers did and how their perspectives can be modified and expanded using a cornucopia of imaging and time-lapse.

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 18:57:50 -0700 (PDT), RichA <rander3128@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, 30 September 2023 at 15:01:49 UTC-4, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
>> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sycamore-gap-tree-cut-down-latest-news-b2421435.html
>>
>> People are rightly dismayed at the vandalism and the loss of an iconic tree.
>>
>> The vandalism to the main Western astronomical insight where the motion of the slower moving planet is accounted for by the Earth's orbital motion-
>>
>> https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html
>>
>> Few have felt anything like the immeasurable sorrow of seeing it vandalised by people who either suit themselves or don't know what they are doing-
>>
>> "For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
>> stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
>> always seen direct(ly),..." Newton
>>
>> The seeds of recovery are in the separate resolution applied to the faster-moving inner planets seen from a slower-moving Earth-
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uCtot1aDg
>>
>> Thugs and vandals take no account of what was destroyed and perhaps never will.
>
>You will see an escalating problem of people doing things to achieve notoriety. To be "known" is the goal of a lot of malcontents these days, it's more important to them than health, freedom or money.

We need look no further than the American Republican Party.

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 8:22:34 AM UTC+1, RichA wrote:
> On Monday, 2 October 2023 at 15:37:20 UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> > On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 18:57:50 -0700 (PDT), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >On Saturday, 30 September 2023 at 15:01:49 UTC-4, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
> > >> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sycamore-gap-tree-cut-down-latest-news-b2421435.html
> > >>
> > >> People are rightly dismayed at the vandalism and the loss of an iconic tree.
> > >>
> > >> The vandalism to the main Western astronomical insight where the motion of the slower moving planet is accounted for by the Earth's orbital motion-
> > >>
> > >> https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html
> > >>
> > >> Few have felt anything like the immeasurable sorrow of seeing it vandalised by people who either suit themselves or don't know what they are doing-
> > >>
> > >> "For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
> > >> stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
> > >> always seen direct(ly),..." Newton
> > >>
> > >> The seeds of recovery are in the separate resolution applied to the faster-moving inner planets seen from a slower-moving Earth-
> > >>
> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uCtot1aDg
> > >>
> > >> Thugs and vandals take no account of what was destroyed and perhaps never will.
> > >
> > >You will see an escalating problem of people doing things to achieve notoriety. To be "known" is the goal of a lot of malcontents these days, it's more important to them than health, freedom or money.
> > We need look no further than the American Republican Party.
> Tell it to BLM and Antifa, "people" who engaged in the knock-out game, and other feral scum.

I am sorry that you chose to react thereby going counter to your own statement, albeit without commenting on the callous nature that the original astronomical insight of a moving Earth in a heliostatic system was chopped to pieces by theorists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Kepler#/media/File:Kepler_Mars_retrograde.jpg

Theorists imagine if you place the Sun in the centre of the representation of the motions of Mars and the Earth then the direct/retrograde loops disappear but that is what the data represents. I saw how it became absolute/relative space and motion within the flawed conclusion while proponents of the scientific or experimental method did not as they assume that apparent/relative motions are seen from Earth while true/absolute motions are seen from the Sun-

"It is indeed a matter of great difficulty to discover, and
effectually to distinguish, the true motion of particular bodies from
the apparent; because the parts of that absolute space, in which those
motions are performed, do by no means come under the observation of
our senses. Yet the thing is not altogether desperate; for we have
some arguments to guide us, partly from the apparent motions, which
are the differences of the true motions" Newton

Vandalism takes many forms and this is a major form of vandalism where I, unfortunately, have to presently throw valuable information after bad until the time when people come to their senses.

Theorists imagine if you place the Sun in the centre of the representation of the motions of Mars and the Earth then the direct/retrograde loops disappear but that is NOT what the data represents. I saw how it became absolute/relative space and motion within the flawed conclusion while proponents of the scientific or experimental method did not as they assume that apparent/relative motions are seen from Earth while true/absolute motions are seen from the Sun-

"It is indeed a matter of great difficulty to discover, and
effectually to distinguish, the true motion of particular bodies from
the apparent; because the parts of that absolute space, in which those
motions are performed, do by no means come under the observation of
our senses. Yet the thing is not altogether desperate; for we have
some arguments to guide us, partly from the apparent motions, which
are the differences of the true motions" Newton

The proper observation, interpretation and conclusion by Kepler affirms that it is the motion of the Earth itself that accounts for the motions of Mars and the other planets-

"Copernicus, by attributing a single annual motion to the Earth, entirely rids the planets of these extremely intricate coils, leading the individual planets into their respective orbits, quite bare and very nearly circular. In the period of time shown in the diagram, Mars traverses one and the same orbit as many times as the 'garlands' you see looped towards the centre, with one extra, making nine times, while at the same time, the Earth repeats its circle sixteen times " Kepler Astronomia Nova 1609

On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 00:22:31 -0700 (PDT), RichA <rander3128@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Monday, 2 October 2023 at 15:37:20 UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 18:57:50 -0700 (PDT), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, 30 September 2023 at 15:01:49 UTC-4, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
>> >> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sycamore-gap-tree-cut-down-latest-news-b2421435.html
>> >>
>> >> People are rightly dismayed at the vandalism and the loss of an iconic tree.
>> >>
>> >> The vandalism to the main Western astronomical insight where the motion of the slower moving planet is accounted for by the Earth's orbital motion-
>> >>
>> >> https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html
>> >>
>> >> Few have felt anything like the immeasurable sorrow of seeing it vandalised by people who either suit themselves or don't know what they are doing-
>> >>
>> >> "For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
>> >> stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
>> >> always seen direct(ly),..." Newton
>> >>
>> >> The seeds of recovery are in the separate resolution applied to the faster-moving inner planets seen from a slower-moving Earth-
>> >>
>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uCtot1aDg
>> >>
>> >> Thugs and vandals take no account of what was destroyed and perhaps never will.
>> >
>> >You will see an escalating problem of people doing things to achieve notoriety. To be "known" is the goal of a lot of malcontents these days, it's more important to them than health, freedom or money.
>> We need look no further than the American Republican Party.
>
>Tell it to BLM and Antifa, "people" who engaged in the knock-out game, and other feral scum.

Heroes. But a KKK lackey like you will never see it that way.

The easiest scientific method conclusion to deal with is the misadventure with the Earth science of biology where prejudice was written as an evolutionary narrative-

" In 500 years how the Anglo-Saxon race will have spread & exterminated whole nations; & in consequence how much the Human race, viewed as a unit, will have risen in rank." Charles Darwin, 1862

The invention of favoured and less favoured 'races' in terms of natural selection is basically eugenics under a different name where academics feared that less favoured 'races' like the Irish would outbreed the favoured Anglo-Saxon 'race' -

" Thus the reckless, degraded, and often vicious members of society, tend to increase at a quicker rate than the provident and generally virtuous members. Or as Mr. Greg puts the case: "The careless, squalid, unaspiring Irishman multiplies like rabbits: the frugal, foreseeing, self-respecting, ambitious Scot, stern in his morality, spiritual in his faith, sagacious and disciplined in his intelligence, passes his best years in struggle and in celibacy, marries late, and leaves few behind him. Given a land originally peopled by a thousand Saxons and a thousand Celts—and in a dozen generations five-sixths of the population would be Celts, but five-sixths of the property, of the power, of the intellect, would belong to the one-sixth of Saxons that remained. In the eternal 'struggle for existence,' it would be the inferior and less favoured race that had prevailed—and prevailed by virtue not of its good qualities but of its faults." Charles Darwin, Descent of Man, 1871

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Descent_of_Man_(Darwin)/Chapter_V

The Nazi regime reheated the imperatives of the Origin of Species and many millions died without sufficiently appreciating what was behind the murder while the academic community tried to deflect the Origin of Species/Natural selection to a watered-down American variant of science versus religion, faith versus fact or some other meaningless drivel that still exists.

It all began elsewhere, in astronomy with a misadventure with timekeeping and unknown to the experimental theorists themselves-

"... our clocks kept so good a correspondence with the Heavens that I
doubt it not but they would prove the revolutions of the Earth to be
isochronical... " Flamsteed to Moore

That is your RA/Dec framework and clockwork solar system that still remains behind all the voodoo and bluffing.

On Wednesday, 4 October 2023 at 11:08:30 UTC+1, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
> The easiest scientific method conclusion to deal with is the misadventure with the Earth science of biology where prejudice was written as an evolutionary narrative-
>
> " In 500 years how the Anglo-Saxon race will have spread & exterminated whole nations; & in consequence how much the Human race, viewed as a unit, will have risen in rank." Charles Darwin, 1862
>
> The invention of favoured and less favoured 'races' in terms of natural selection is basically eugenics under a different name where academics feared that less favoured 'races' like the Irish would outbreed the favoured Anglo-Saxon 'race' -
>
> " Thus the reckless, degraded, and often vicious members of society, tend to increase at a quicker rate than the provident and generally virtuous members. Or as Mr. Greg puts the case: "The careless, squalid, unaspiring Irishman multiplies like rabbits: the frugal, foreseeing, self-respecting, ambitious Scot, stern in his morality, spiritual in his faith, sagacious and disciplined in his intelligence, passes his best years in struggle and in celibacy, marries late, and leaves few behind him. Given a land originally peopled by a thousand Saxons and a thousand Celts—and in a dozen generations five-sixths of the population would be Celts, but five-sixths of the property, of the power, of the intellect, would belong to the one-sixth of Saxons that remained. In the eternal 'struggle for existence,' it would be the inferior and less favoured race that had prevailed—and prevailed by virtue not of its good qualities but of its faults." Charles Darwin, Descent of Man, 1871
>
> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Descent_of_Man_(Darwin)/Chapter_V
>
> The Nazi regime reheated the imperatives of the Origin of Species and many millions died without sufficiently appreciating what was behind the murder while the academic community tried to deflect the Origin of Species/Natural selection to a watered-down American variant of science versus religion, faith versus fact or some other meaningless drivel that still exists.
>
> It all began elsewhere, in astronomy with a misadventure with timekeeping and unknown to the experimental theorists themselves-
>
> "... our clocks kept so good a correspondence with the Heavens that I
> doubt it not but they would prove the revolutions of the Earth to be
> isochronical... " Flamsteed to Moore
>
> That is your RA/Dec framework and clockwork solar system that still remains behind all the voodoo and bluffing.

And that RA/Dec framework and the isochronicity of the heavens is what Harrison used to invent his chronometer and use it for navigation. A convenient method but in his time available only to the equivalents of millionaires who could afford his chronometers.
Of course they still had to be corrected from time to time using lunar observations and Maskelynes complex but cheap method.

On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 6:36:54 PM UTC+1, Mike Collins wrote:
> On Wednesday, 4 October 2023 at 11:08:30 UTC+1, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
> > The easiest scientific method conclusion to deal with is the misadventure with the Earth science of biology where prejudice was written as an evolutionary narrative-
> >
> > " In 500 years how the Anglo-Saxon race will have spread & exterminated whole nations; & in consequence how much the Human race, viewed as a unit, will have risen in rank." Charles Darwin, 1862
> >
> > The invention of favoured and less favoured 'races' in terms of natural selection is basically eugenics under a different name where academics feared that less favoured 'races' like the Irish would outbreed the favoured Anglo-Saxon 'race' -
> >
> > " Thus the reckless, degraded, and often vicious members of society, tend to increase at a quicker rate than the provident and generally virtuous members. Or as Mr. Greg puts the case: "The careless, squalid, unaspiring Irishman multiplies like rabbits: the frugal, foreseeing, self-respecting, ambitious Scot, stern in his morality, spiritual in his faith, sagacious and disciplined in his intelligence, passes his best years in struggle and in celibacy, marries late, and leaves few behind him. Given a land originally peopled by a thousand Saxons and a thousand Celts—and in a dozen generations five-sixths of the population would be Celts, but five-sixths of the property, of the power, of the intellect, would belong to the one-sixth of Saxons that remained. In the eternal 'struggle for existence,' it would be the inferior and less favoured race that had prevailed—and prevailed by virtue not of its good qualities but of its faults." Charles Darwin, Descent of Man, 1871
> >
> > https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Descent_of_Man_(Darwin)/Chapter_V
> >
> > The Nazi regime reheated the imperatives of the Origin of Species and many millions died without sufficiently appreciating what was behind the murder while the academic community tried to deflect the Origin of Species/Natural selection to a watered-down American variant of science versus religion, faith versus fact or some other meaningless drivel that still exists.
> >
> > It all began elsewhere, in astronomy with a misadventure with timekeeping and unknown to the experimental theorists themselves-
> >
> > "... our clocks kept so good a correspondence with the Heavens that I
> > doubt it not but they would prove the revolutions of the Earth to be
> > isochronical... " Flamsteed to Moore
> >
> > That is your RA/Dec framework and clockwork solar system that still remains behind all the voodoo and bluffing.
> And that RA/Dec framework and the isochronicity of the heavens is what Harrison used to invent his chronometer and use it for navigation. A convenient method but in his time available only to the equivalents of millionaires who could afford his chronometers.
> Of course they still had to be corrected from time to time using lunar observations and Maskelynes complex but cheap method.

You do not presently have the feel, empathy or perceptive abilities of an astronomer or timekeeper where 12 noon and your location in your diurnal cycle are anchored to noon midway between sunrise and sunset. RA/Dec is the same as DST in terms of the flexibility of timekeeping once the average 24-hour day is established through known principles along with equal hours, minutes and seconds. The Equation of Time itself requires equal hours, minutes and seconds to operate and that is established through the average 24-hour day where average and constant share the same principle within the longitude framework. Harrison checked for the accuracy of his watch using the return of a star to the same location, however, the stars change their position annually and in an uneven way as a result of the Earth's orbital motion and variable speed-

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

The heliacal rising represents the closest recognition of stellar references this way while the circumpolar motion of the stars is based on the 365/366 day calendar cycle while the former heliacal rising creates the foundations of timekeeping-

".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree 238 BC

Harrison and all people who use the longitude framework today recognise the principles of longitude and even without one rotation equating to one 24-hour day/night cycle-

"The Longitude of any place is its distance East or West from any other given place; and what we want is a method of finding out at sea, how far we are got to the Eastward or Westward of the place we sailed from. The application of a Timekeeper to this discovery is founded upon the following principles: the earth's surface is divided into 360 equal parts (by imaginary lines drawn from North to South) which are called Degrees of Longitude, and its daily revolution Eastward around its own axis is performed in 24 hours; consequently, in that period, each of those imaginary lines or degrees, becomes successively opposite to the Sun (which makes the noon or precise middle of the day at each of those degrees;) and it must follow, that from the time any one of those lines passes the Sun, till, the next passes, must be just four minutes, for 24 hours being divided by 360 will give that quantity; so that for every degree of Longitude we sail Westward, it will be noon with us four minutes the later, and for every degree Eastward four minutes the sooner, and so on in proportion for any greater or less quantity. Now, the exact time of the day at the place where we are can be ascertained by well-known and easy observations of the Sun if visible for a few minutes at any time from his being ten degrees high until within an hour of noon, or from an hour after noon until he is only 10 degrees high in the afternoon; if therefore, at any time when such observation is made, a Timekeeper tells us at the same moment what o'clock it is at the place we sailed from, our Longitude is clearly discovered." John Harrison

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_a_Trait_in_the_Character_of_George_III._of_these_United_Kingdoms/Appendix_1

The average 24-hour day lends itself to the constant rotation of the Earth as a process rather than as a fact while RA/Dec is an outrigger of the 24-hour day just as DST is.

On Wednesday, 4 October 2023 at 20:01:29 UTC+1, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 6:36:54 PM UTC+1, Mike Collins wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 4 October 2023 at 11:08:30 UTC+1, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
> > > The easiest scientific method conclusion to deal with is the misadventure with the Earth science of biology where prejudice was written as an evolutionary narrative-
> > >
> > > " In 500 years how the Anglo-Saxon race will have spread & exterminated whole nations; & in consequence how much the Human race, viewed as a unit, will have risen in rank." Charles Darwin, 1862
> > >
> > > The invention of favoured and less favoured 'races' in terms of natural selection is basically eugenics under a different name where academics feared that less favoured 'races' like the Irish would outbreed the favoured Anglo-Saxon 'race' -
> > >
> > > " Thus the reckless, degraded, and often vicious members of society, tend to increase at a quicker rate than the provident and generally virtuous members. Or as Mr. Greg puts the case: "The careless, squalid, unaspiring Irishman multiplies like rabbits: the frugal, foreseeing, self-respecting, ambitious Scot, stern in his morality, spiritual in his faith, sagacious and disciplined in his intelligence, passes his best years in struggle and in celibacy, marries late, and leaves few behind him. Given a land originally peopled by a thousand Saxons and a thousand Celts—and in a dozen generations five-sixths of the population would be Celts, but five-sixths of the property, of the power, of the intellect, would belong to the one-sixth of Saxons that remained. In the eternal 'struggle for existence,' it would be the inferior and less favoured race that had prevailed—and prevailed by virtue not of its good qualities but of its faults." Charles Darwin, Descent of Man, 1871
> > >
> > > https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Descent_of_Man_(Darwin)/Chapter_V
> > >
> > > The Nazi regime reheated the imperatives of the Origin of Species and many millions died without sufficiently appreciating what was behind the murder while the academic community tried to deflect the Origin of Species/Natural selection to a watered-down American variant of science versus religion, faith versus fact or some other meaningless drivel that still exists.
> > >
> > > It all began elsewhere, in astronomy with a misadventure with timekeeping and unknown to the experimental theorists themselves-
> > >
> > > "... our clocks kept so good a correspondence with the Heavens that I
> > > doubt it not but they would prove the revolutions of the Earth to be
> > > isochronical... " Flamsteed to Moore
> > >
> > > That is your RA/Dec framework and clockwork solar system that still remains behind all the voodoo and bluffing.
> > And that RA/Dec framework and the isochronicity of the heavens is what Harrison used to invent his chronometer and use it for navigation. A convenient method but in his time available only to the equivalents of millionaires who could afford his chronometers.
> > Of course they still had to be corrected from time to time using lunar observations and Maskelynes complex but cheap method.
> You do not presently have the feel, empathy or perceptive abilities of an astronomer or timekeeper where 12 noon and your location in your diurnal cycle are anchored to noon midway between sunrise and sunset. RA/Dec is the same as DST in terms of the flexibility of timekeeping once the average 24-hour day is established through known principles along with equal hours, minutes and seconds. The Equation of Time itself requires equal hours, minutes and seconds to operate and that is established through the average 24-hour day where average and constant share the same principle within the longitude framework. Harrison checked for the accuracy of his watch using the return of a star to the same location, however, the stars change their position annually and in an uneven way as a result of the Earth's orbital motion and variable speed-
>
> https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/
>
> The heliacal rising represents the closest recognition of stellar references this way while the circumpolar motion of the stars is based on the 365/366 day calendar cycle while the former heliacal rising creates the foundations of timekeeping-
>
> ".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree 238 BC
>
> Harrison and all people who use the longitude framework today recognise the principles of longitude and even without one rotation equating to one 24-hour day/night cycle-
>
> "The Longitude of any place is its distance East or West from any other given place; and what we want is a method of finding out at sea, how far we are got to the Eastward or Westward of the place we sailed from. The application of a Timekeeper to this discovery is founded upon the following principles: the earth's surface is divided into 360 equal parts (by imaginary lines drawn from North to South) which are called Degrees of Longitude, and its daily revolution Eastward around its own axis is performed in 24 hours; consequently, in that period, each of those imaginary lines or degrees, becomes successively opposite to the Sun (which makes the noon or precise middle of the day at each of those degrees;) and it must follow, that from the time any one of those lines passes the Sun, till, the next passes, must be just four minutes, for 24 hours being divided by 360 will give that quantity; so that for every degree of Longitude we sail Westward, it will be noon with us four minutes the later, and for every degree Eastward four minutes the sooner, and so on in proportion for any greater or less quantity. Now, the exact time of the day at the place where we are can be ascertained by well-known and easy observations of the Sun if visible for a few minutes at any time from his being ten degrees high until within an hour of noon, or from an hour after noon until he is only 10 degrees high in the afternoon; if therefore, at any time when such observation is made, a Timekeeper tells us at the same moment what o'clock it is at the place we sailed from, our Longitude is clearly discovered." John Harrison
>
> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_a_Trait_in_the_Character_of_George_III._of_these_United_Kingdoms/Appendix_1
>
>
> The average 24-hour day lends itself to the constant rotation of the Earth as a process rather than as a fact while RA/Dec is an outrigger of the 24-hour day just as DST is.

Celestial navigation uses stars, planets and the Moon as well as the Sun. But of course you have to use RA (or GHA which converts to RA) and dec.

On Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 1:54:16 AM UTC+1, Mike Collins wrote:

..
> Celestial navigation uses stars, planets and the Moon as well as the Sun. But of course, you have to use RA (or GHA which converts to RA) and dec.

The first heliostatic astronomers used the Ptolemaic framework where the Sun's motion defines the ecliptic (really the Earth's orbital plane) while the planets wander North and South of that defined line-

https://bobmoler.files.wordpress.com/2022/10/mars-retrograde22-23-5-day.gif

" Moreover, we see the other five planets also retrograde at times,
and stationary at either end [of the regression]. And whereas the Sun
always advances along its own direct path, they wander in various
ways, straying sometimes to the South and sometimes to the North; that
is why they are called "planets" [wanderers]. " Copernicus

RA/Dec tries to define motions, including the Sun, off the Earth's rotational equator projected into the stellar background where the Sun moves north and south of that defined line-

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvJvpyWUn_Vg9RkShT9GaBH_E-OTFxBV11X_KxLp4H&s

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/24/71/8a/24718a4457a44b1d7b3c4d4cf2ceba40.jpg

It is leading to contrived monstrosities that few seem capable of feeling repulsed by representing a total loss of perceptive abilities-

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap210922.html

Of course, it all comes down to what anchors timekeeping to the noon Sun rather than appealing to a celestial sphere.

On Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 3:01:59 AM UTC-6, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

> Of course, it all comes down to what anchors timekeeping to the noon Sun rather than appealing to a celestial sphere.

It's true that the noonday Sun comes back at intervals which *average* to 24 hours.

But if you want to calibrate the accuracy a pendulum clock, you don't want to have to take a whole year to do it.

The Equation of Time is a consequence of the facts that:

1) The Earth's orbit around the Sun is an ellipse, and
2) The plane of the Earth's orbit, the Ecliptic, is not the same as the plane of the Earth's rotation, the Equator.

So the daily contribution of the Earth's orbital motion to the 24 hour average period of noon _is conspicuously
not uniform_ as noted in the Equation of Time.

On the other hand, the 23 hour, 56 minute, and 4 second period of stellar circumpolar motion (except for effects
so small they weren't detected until the era of atomic clocks) *is* uniform.. That's why certain observatories have
transit circles that were used to calibrate the accuracy of their fancy pendulum clocks with thermal compensation
and all that against the daily return of a star.

The day is still 24 hours. We want our clocks to tell us when to get up in the morning - when does the Sun rise,
in order to awaken, when is the Sun overhead, to eat lunch, when does the Sun set, and so on. Nobody is going to
change to the "Sidereal day" as the measure of timekeeping. But the fact that timekeeping, for convenience, is based
on the cycle of daylight and dark does _not_ make it necessary that the apparent motion of the Sun - which is a
compound motion, combining the Earth's orbital motion and the Earth's rotation in a complicated manner - is what
we directly check our clocks against.

No. We (used to) check our clocks against the Earth's rotation by itself, which meant checking them against
stellar circumpolar motion. There is no problem with doing it that way, except in your mind.

John Savard