<https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com

The widening gulf between Russia and the West is undeniable. But
elsewhere in the world, another trend has become clear: Moscow has
increased its influence and leverage in many important countries ..

Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..

....

Let American malefics feel unhappy.

Oleg Smirnov <os333@netc.eu> wrote:
> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com

> The widening gulf between Russia and the West is undeniable. But
> elsewhere in the world, another trend has become clear: Moscow has
> increased its influence and leverage in many important countries ..

Обхохочешься.
Это даже смешнее новика-алича.

---
Const

On 11/17/23 10:30 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
>
> The widening gulf between Russia and the West is undeniable. But
> elsewhere in the world, another trend has become clear: Moscow has
> increased its influence and leverage in many important countries ..
>
> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..
>
> ...
>
> Let American malefics feel unhappy.

American SHOULD be unhappy - but to a large extent this
issue is ITS OWN FAULT. After the USSR, America largely
just IGNORED Russia, and occasionally shit on Russia.
"No longer a problem ...". Putin put on a good show of
being "civilized".

Thing is, Putin was a BUSY MAN - and filled with those
old Imperial ambitions. The USA barely noticed. Effort
might have been required.

As a result Russia has created its own little universe
which includes perhaps the west's two greatest rivals,
China and Iran. He brought them in, set up the money
and trade and military ties. He also got India to be
rather friendly, the most populace nation on earth
and a tech/space/nuke power. THEN he invaded Ukraine,
twice. As a result of his work, western 'sanctions'
had essentially NO impact.

The USA did barely anything about the first invasion
of Ukraine. Easier to just let Putin have it ...

The aims of the USA are no worse than Putin's or
Iran's ... by many measures "better". But the USA
has always been a CLOD, too self-focused to grasp
how anyone else in the world thinks, to notice
what they want. The famous line in the Kubrick
movie ... "Inside every gook is an American trying
to get out" ... kinda sums it up.

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>
wrote:

><https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
>
>The widening gulf between Russia and the West is undeniable. But
>elsewhere in the world, another trend has become clear: Moscow has
>increased its influence and leverage in many important countries ..
>
>Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..

Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because it
was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
should lose than that the US should gain.

Then came the invasion of Ukraine.

As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Steve Hayes, <news:qg8jli9bb4lal56fe0fgd9h7546hoo7tin@4ax.com>
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>

>> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com

>> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..
>
> Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
> Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because it
> was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
> should lose than that the US should gain.
>
> Then came the invasion of Ukraine.
>
> As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
> you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.

If Putin really was a master 7D chess player then the situation
requiring a drastic action probably would not arise at all. But
it's the result of a joint effort where all have miscalculated
something. The Atlanticist-backed 2014 coup in Kiev was violent,
unlawful and anti-democratic, raised destructive extremist forces
that led then to destructive consequences, and those who don't
recognize the latter have no say to criticize the Kremlin action.

All this does not change the point noted above.

On 11/19/23 1:23 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Steve Hayes, <news:qg8jli9bb4lal56fe0fgd9h7546hoo7tin@4ax.com>
>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>
>
>>> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
>
>>> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..
>>
>> Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
>> Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because it
>> was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
>> should lose than that the US should gain.
>> Then came the invasion of Ukraine.
>> As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
>> you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.
>
> If Putin really was a master 7D chess player then the situation
> requiring a drastic action probably would not arise at all. But it's the
> result of a joint effort where all have miscalculated something. The
> Atlanticist-backed 2014 coup in Kiev was violent, unlawful and
> anti-democratic, raised destructive extremist forces
> that led then to destructive consequences, and those who don't recognize
> the latter have no say to criticize the Kremlin action.
>
> All this does not change the point noted above.

I've no doubts 'the west' DID sponsor the de-facto
coup in Ukraine ... it was an offshoot of their big
ill-fated "arab spring" adventure. However a LOT in
Ukraine LIKED the coup - but it was largely geographical.

All this started with something very small and simple ...
a line on a map drawn in the 50s when it was just
assumed the USSR was going to be "forever". As such it
didn't really MATTER exactly what was defined as "Ukraine".

Until "forever" arrived ....

East Ukraine really IS pretty much "Russia" - that's how
most of the people there see themselves. THEY did NOT
like the coup.

However east Ukraine has a lot of INDUSTRY, and Kyiv
did NOT want to lose that. There's money in ag, but
MORE money and POWER if you also have industry.

And quickly the little line on an old map became a
dick-measuring contest between super-powers. Nobody
is really going to be a "winner" here.

Politics is "forever" - but bear in mind that it's
usually FUCKED. It's just the "Id" dressed in a tux.

On 11/19/2023 6:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
> On 11/19/23 1:23 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> Steve Hayes, <news:qg8jli9bb4lal56fe0fgd9h7546hoo7tin@4ax.com>
>>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>
>>
>>>> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
>>
>>>> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..
>>>
>>> Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
>>> Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because it
>>> was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
>>> should lose than that the US should gain.
>>> Then came the invasion of Ukraine.
>>> As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
>>> you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.
>>
>> If Putin really was a master 7D chess player then the situation
>> requiring a drastic action probably would not arise at all. But it's
>> the result of a joint effort where all have miscalculated something.
>> The Atlanticist-backed 2014 coup in Kiev was violent, unlawful and
>> anti-democratic, raised destructive extremist forces
>> that led then to destructive consequences, and those who don't
>> recognize the latter have no say to criticize the Kremlin action.
>>
>> All this does not change the point noted above.
>
>   I've no doubts 'the west' DID sponsor the de-facto
>   coup in Ukraine ... it was an offshoot of their big
>   ill-fated "arab spring" adventure. However a LOT in
>   Ukraine LIKED the coup - but it was largely geographical.
>
>   All this started with something very small and simple ...
>   a line on a map drawn in the 50s when it was just
>   assumed the USSR was going to be "forever". As such it
>   didn't really MATTER exactly what was defined as "Ukraine".
>
>   Until "forever" arrived ....
>
>   East Ukraine really IS pretty much "Russia" - that's how
>   most of the people there see themselves. THEY did NOT
>   like the coup.
>
>   However east Ukraine has a lot of INDUSTRY, and Kyiv
>   did NOT want to lose that. There's money in ag, but
>   MORE money and POWER if you also have industry.
>
>   And quickly the little line on an old map became a
>   dick-measuring contest between super-powers. Nobody
>   is really going to be a "winner" here.
>
>   Politics is "forever" - but bear in mind that it's
>   usually FUCKED. It's just the "Id" dressed in a tux.

Wow. That explains why Smirnov keeps cross-posting to all those strange
newsgroups. Must have finally found an audience receptive to all his crap.
Смирнов, иди нахуй в свой talk.politics.misc или куда там ещё, здесь-то
ты зачем?

On 11/19/2023 7:30 PM, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
> Wow. That explains why Smirnov keeps cross-posting to all those strange
> newsgroups. Must have finally found an audience receptive to all his crap.

fellow coprofagi

> Смирнов, иди нахуй в свой talk.politics.misc или куда там ещё, здесь-то
> ты зачем?

56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
> On 11/19/23 1:23 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> > Steve Hayes, <news:qg8jli9bb4lal56fe0fgd9h7546hoo7tin@4ax.com>
> >> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>
> >
> >>> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
> >
> >>> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..
> >>
> >> Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
> >> Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because it
> >> was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
> >> should lose than that the US should gain.
> >> Then came the invasion of Ukraine.
> >> As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
> >> you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.
> >
> > If Putin really was a master 7D chess player then the situation
> > requiring a drastic action probably would not arise at all. But it's the
> > result of a joint effort where all have miscalculated something. The
> > Atlanticist-backed 2014 coup in Kiev was violent, unlawful and
> > anti-democratic, raised destructive extremist forces
> > that led then to destructive consequences, and those who don't recognize
> > the latter have no say to criticize the Kremlin action.
> >
> > All this does not change the point noted above.

> I've no doubts 'the west' DID sponsor the de-facto
> coup in Ukraine ... it was an offshoot of their big

That's just bs.
Russian propaganda plain and clear.

> ill-fated "arab spring" adventure. However a LOT in
> Ukraine LIKED the coup - but it was largely geographical.

> All this started with something very small and simple ...
> a line on a map drawn in the 50s when it was just
> assumed the USSR was going to be "forever". As such it
> didn't really MATTER exactly what was defined as "Ukraine".

> Until "forever" arrived ....

> East Ukraine really IS pretty much "Russia" - that's how
> most of the people there see themselves. THEY did NOT
> like the coup.

Even the most pro-russian regions by 2014 were 50:50 at best.

> However east Ukraine has a lot of INDUSTRY, and Kyiv
> did NOT want to lose that. There's money in ag, but
> MORE money and POWER if you also have industry.

Industry that was not really NEEDED.
Dying industry.

---
Const

Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:d91cbff7-006e-4f60-84fa-d5bfce84b499@fido.fw.nu>
> On 11/19/2023 6:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> On 11/19/23 1:23 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>>> Steve Hayes, <news:qg8jli9bb4lal56fe0fgd9h7546hoo7tin@4ax.com>
>>>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>

>>>>> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
>>>
>>>>> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..
>>>>
>>>> Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
>>>> Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because it
>>>> was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
>>>> should lose than that the US should gain.
>>>> Then came the invasion of Ukraine.
>>>> As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
>>>> you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.
>>>
>>> If Putin really was a master 7D chess player then the situation
>>> requiring a drastic action probably would not arise at all. But it's the
>>> result of a joint effort where all have miscalculated something. The
>>> Atlanticist-backed 2014 coup in Kiev was violent, unlawful and
>>> anti-democratic, raised destructive extremist forces
>>> that led then to destructive consequences, and those who don't recognize
>>> the latter have no say to criticize the Kremlin action.
>>>
>>> All this does not change the point noted above.
>>
>> I've no doubts 'the west' DID sponsor the de-facto
>> coup in Ukraine ... it was an offshoot of their big
>> ill-fated "arab spring" adventure. However a LOT in
>> Ukraine LIKED the coup - but it was largely geographical.
>>
>> All this started with something very small and simple ...
>> a line on a map drawn in the 50s when it was just
>> assumed the USSR was going to be "forever". As such it
>> didn't really MATTER exactly what was defined as "Ukraine".
>>
>> Until "forever" arrived ....
>>
>> East Ukraine really IS pretty much "Russia" - that's how
>> most of the people there see themselves. THEY did NOT
>> like the coup.
>>
>> However east Ukraine has a lot of INDUSTRY, and Kyiv
>> did NOT want to lose that. There's money in ag, but
>> MORE money and POWER if you also have industry.
>>
>> And quickly the little line on an old map became a
>> dick-measuring contest between super-powers. Nobody
>> is really going to be a "winner" here.
>>
>> Politics is "forever" - but bear in mind that it's
>> usually FUCKED. It's just the "Id" dressed in a tux.
>
> Wow. That explains why Smirnov keeps cross-posting to all those strange
> newsgroups. Must have finally found an audience receptive to all his crap.
> Смирнов, иди нахуй в свой talk.politics.misc или куда там ещё, здесь-то ты
> зачем?

Sectaries got alarmed.
Outer world brings an uneasy feeling into your bubble of delusion.
Is not it?

On 11/19/2023 11:09 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:d91cbff7-006e-4f60-84fa-d5bfce84b499@fido.fw.nu>
>> On 11/19/2023 6:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>> On 11/19/23 1:23 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>>>> Steve Hayes, <news:qg8jli9bb4lal56fe0fgd9h7546hoo7tin@4ax.com>
>>>>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>
>
>>>>>> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
>>>>
>>>>>> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..
>>>>>
>>>>> Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
>>>>> Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because it
>>>>> was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
>>>>> should lose than that the US should gain.
>>>>> Then came the invasion of Ukraine.
>>>>> As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
>>>>> you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.
>>>>
>>>> If Putin really was a master 7D chess player then the situation
>>>> requiring a drastic action probably would not arise at all. But it's
>>>> the result of a joint effort where all have miscalculated something.
>>>> The Atlanticist-backed 2014 coup in Kiev was violent, unlawful and
>>>> anti-democratic, raised destructive extremist forces
>>>> that led then to destructive consequences, and those who don't
>>>> recognize the latter have no say to criticize the Kremlin action.
>>>>
>>>> All this does not change the point noted above.
>>>
>>>  I've no doubts 'the west' DID sponsor the de-facto
>>>  coup in Ukraine ... it was an offshoot of their big
>>>  ill-fated "arab spring" adventure. However a LOT in
>>>  Ukraine LIKED the coup - but it was largely geographical.
>>>
>>>  All this started with something very small and simple ...
>>>  a line on a map drawn in the 50s when it was just
>>>  assumed the USSR was going to be "forever". As such it
>>>  didn't really MATTER exactly what was defined as "Ukraine".
>>>
>>>  Until "forever" arrived ....
>>>
>>>  East Ukraine really IS pretty much "Russia" - that's how
>>>  most of the people there see themselves. THEY did NOT
>>>  like the coup.
>>>
>>>  However east Ukraine has a lot of INDUSTRY, and Kyiv
>>>  did NOT want to lose that. There's money in ag, but
>>>  MORE money and POWER if you also have industry.
>>>
>>>  And quickly the little line on an old map became a
>>>  dick-measuring contest between super-powers. Nobody
>>>  is really going to be a "winner" here.
>>>
>>>  Politics is "forever" - but bear in mind that it's
>>>  usually FUCKED. It's just the "Id" dressed in a tux.
>>
>> Wow. That explains why Smirnov keeps cross-posting to all those
>> strange newsgroups. Must have finally found an audience receptive to
>> all his crap.
>> Смирнов, иди нахуй в свой talk.politics.misc или куда там ещё,
>> здесь-то ты зачем?
>
> Sectaries got alarmed.
> Outer world brings an uneasy feeling into your bubble of delusion.
> Is not it?

Правильно было бы "Is it not", а не "Is not it", идиота кусок.

On 11/19/2023 11:17 PM, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
> On 11/19/2023 11:09 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> Sectaries got alarmed.
>> Outer world brings an uneasy feeling into your bubble of delusion.
>> Is not it?
>
> Правильно было бы "Is it not", а не "Is not it", идиота кусок.

да ланна, "кусок"
*целый* идиот

56d.1152, <news:-umdnXscLdxMAcf4nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@earthlink.com>
> On 11/19/23 1:23 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> Steve Hayes, <news:qg8jli9bb4lal56fe0fgd9h7546hoo7tin@4ax.com>
>>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>
>>
>>>> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
>>
>>>> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..
>>>
>>> Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
>>> Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because it
>>> was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
>>> should lose than that the US should gain.
>>> Then came the invasion of Ukraine.
>>> As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
>>> you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.
>>
>> If Putin really was a master 7D chess player then the situation
>> requiring a drastic action probably would not arise at all. But it's the
>> result of a joint effort where all have miscalculated something. The
>> Atlanticist-backed 2014 coup in Kiev was violent, unlawful and
>> anti-democratic, raised destructive extremist forces
>> that led then to destructive consequences, and those who don't recognize
>> the latter have no say to criticize the Kremlin action.
>>
>> All this does not change the point noted above.
>
>
> I've no doubts 'the west' DID sponsor the de-facto
> coup in Ukraine ... it was an offshoot of their big
> ill-fated "arab spring" adventure. However a LOT in
> Ukraine LIKED the coup - but it was largely geographical.
>
> All this started with something very small and simple ...
> a line on a map drawn in the 50s when it was just
> assumed the USSR was going to be "forever". As such it
> didn't really MATTER exactly what was defined as "Ukraine".
>
> Until "forever" arrived ....
>
> East Ukraine really IS pretty much "Russia" - that's how
> most of the people there see themselves. THEY did NOT
> like the coup.
>
> However east Ukraine has a lot of INDUSTRY, and Kyiv
> did NOT want to lose that. There's money in ag, but
> MORE money and POWER if you also have industry.

Yes. Pre-2014 statistics showed for the Ukraine's east higher
salaries and more cars per capita and so forth. The Ukraine's
west always was predominantly agrarian.

> And quickly the little line on an old map became a
> dick-measuring contest between super-powers. Nobody
> is really going to be a "winner" here.
>
> Politics is "forever" - but bear in mind that it's
> usually FUCKED. It's just the "Id" dressed in a tux.

The "democracy" agenda is basically based on the idea that it's
natural that interests of people / factions of the society may
differ, but a compromise can be agreed in a civilized way.

In the Ukraine case, the Atlanticism encouraged the Ukraine's
"pro-west" faction to usurp power without hesitating to use
strong, armed violence, and, moreover, the propaganda machine
(the MSM) mendaciously misrepresented it as a kind of noble
"revolution" and "liberation".

On 11/19/23 11:09 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:d91cbff7-006e-4f60-84fa-d5bfce84b499@fido.fw.nu>
>> On 11/19/2023 6:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>> On 11/19/23 1:23 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>>>> Steve Hayes, <news:qg8jli9bb4lal56fe0fgd9h7546hoo7tin@4ax.com>
>>>>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>
>
>>>>>> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
>>>>
>>>>>> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..
>>>>>
>>>>> Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
>>>>> Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because it
>>>>> was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
>>>>> should lose than that the US should gain.
>>>>> Then came the invasion of Ukraine.
>>>>> As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
>>>>> you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.
>>>>
>>>> If Putin really was a master 7D chess player then the situation
>>>> requiring a drastic action probably would not arise at all. But it's
>>>> the result of a joint effort where all have miscalculated something.
>>>> The Atlanticist-backed 2014 coup in Kiev was violent, unlawful and
>>>> anti-democratic, raised destructive extremist forces
>>>> that led then to destructive consequences, and those who don't
>>>> recognize the latter have no say to criticize the Kremlin action.
>>>>
>>>> All this does not change the point noted above.
>>>
>>>  I've no doubts 'the west' DID sponsor the de-facto
>>>  coup in Ukraine ... it was an offshoot of their big
>>>  ill-fated "arab spring" adventure. However a LOT in
>>>  Ukraine LIKED the coup - but it was largely geographical.
>>>
>>>  All this started with something very small and simple ...
>>>  a line on a map drawn in the 50s when it was just
>>>  assumed the USSR was going to be "forever". As such it
>>>  didn't really MATTER exactly what was defined as "Ukraine".
>>>
>>>  Until "forever" arrived ....
>>>
>>>  East Ukraine really IS pretty much "Russia" - that's how
>>>  most of the people there see themselves. THEY did NOT
>>>  like the coup.
>>>
>>>  However east Ukraine has a lot of INDUSTRY, and Kyiv
>>>  did NOT want to lose that. There's money in ag, but
>>>  MORE money and POWER if you also have industry.
>>>
>>>  And quickly the little line on an old map became a
>>>  dick-measuring contest between super-powers. Nobody
>>>  is really going to be a "winner" here.
>>>
>>>  Politics is "forever" - but bear in mind that it's
>>>  usually FUCKED. It's just the "Id" dressed in a tux.
>>
>> Wow. That explains why Smirnov keeps cross-posting to all those
>> strange newsgroups. Must have finally found an audience receptive to
>> all his crap.
>> Смирнов, иди нахуй в свой talk.politics.misc или куда там ещё,
>> здесь-то ты зачем?
>
> Sectaries got alarmed.
> Outer world brings an uneasy feeling into your bubble of delusion.
> Is not it?

What an odd set of sentences ...

HOW many vodka's tonight Oleg ??? Clearly
you can't hold your liquor ... shameful,
juvenile, for a Russian :-)

Oh well, Putin is gonna get one in the back
of the head pretty soon now. He's ruined Russia
for the next 25 years fer sure. The question is
whether he'll be replace by a sensible non-
imperialist or an ultra-dangerous ultra-nationalist.

If the latter, none of us will have much to worry
about soon after .........

56d.1152, <news:AFidnWoR7YiWbMf4nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@earthlink.com>
> On 11/19/23 11:09 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:d91cbff7-006e-4f60-84fa-d5bfce84b499@fido.fw.nu>
>>> On 11/19/2023 6:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>>> On 11/19/23 1:23 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>>>>> Steve Hayes, <news:qg8jli9bb4lal56fe0fgd9h7546hoo7tin@4ax.com>
>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>

>>>>>>> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
>>>>>> Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
>>>>>> should lose than that the US should gain.
>>>>>> Then came the invasion of Ukraine.
>>>>>> As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
>>>>>> you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.
>>>>>
>>>>> If Putin really was a master 7D chess player then the situation
>>>>> requiring a drastic action probably would not arise at all. But it's
>>>>> the result of a joint effort where all have miscalculated something.
>>>>> The Atlanticist-backed 2014 coup in Kiev was violent, unlawful and
>>>>> anti-democratic, raised destructive extremist forces
>>>>> that led then to destructive consequences, and those who don't
>>>>> recognize the latter have no say to criticize the Kremlin action.
>>>>>
>>>>> All this does not change the point noted above.
>>>>
>>>> I've no doubts 'the west' DID sponsor the de-facto
>>>> coup in Ukraine ... it was an offshoot of their big
>>>> ill-fated "arab spring" adventure. However a LOT in
>>>> Ukraine LIKED the coup - but it was largely geographical.
>>>>
>>>> All this started with something very small and simple ...
>>>> a line on a map drawn in the 50s when it was just
>>>> assumed the USSR was going to be "forever". As such it
>>>> didn't really MATTER exactly what was defined as "Ukraine".
>>>>
>>>> Until "forever" arrived ....
>>>>
>>>> East Ukraine really IS pretty much "Russia" - that's how
>>>> most of the people there see themselves. THEY did NOT
>>>> like the coup.
>>>>
>>>> However east Ukraine has a lot of INDUSTRY, and Kyiv
>>>> did NOT want to lose that. There's money in ag, but
>>>> MORE money and POWER if you also have industry.
>>>>
>>>> And quickly the little line on an old map became a
>>>> dick-measuring contest between super-powers. Nobody
>>>> is really going to be a "winner" here.
>>>>
>>>> Politics is "forever" - but bear in mind that it's
>>>> usually FUCKED. It's just the "Id" dressed in a tux.
>>>
>>> Wow. That explains why Smirnov keeps cross-posting to all those strange
>>> newsgroups. Must have finally found an audience receptive to all his
>>> crap.
>>> Смирнов, иди нахуй в свой talk.politics.misc или куда там ещё, здесь-то
>>> ты зачем?
>>
>> Sectaries got alarmed.
>> Outer world brings an uneasy feeling into your bubble of delusion.
>> Is not it?
>
>
> What an odd set of sentences ...
>
> HOW many vodka's tonight Oleg ??? Clearly
> you can't hold your liquor ... shameful,
> juvenile, for a Russian :-)
>
> Oh well, Putin is gonna get one in the back
> of the head pretty soon now. He's ruined Russia
> for the next 25 years fer sure. The question is
> whether he'll be replace by a sensible non-
> imperialist or an ultra-dangerous ultra-nationalist.
>
> If the latter, none of us will have much to worry
> about soon after .........

There's in the news that most of Americans nowadays use
various substances in order to cope with depression etc,
so it makes them mentally unstable.

American decline is in progress.

On 11/19/23 11:47 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> 56d.1152, <news:-umdnXscLdxMAcf4nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@earthlink.com>
>> On 11/19/23 1:23 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>>> Steve Hayes, <news:qg8jli9bb4lal56fe0fgd9h7546hoo7tin@4ax.com>
>>>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>
>>>
>>>>> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
>>>
>>>>> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian narratives ..
>>>>
>>>> Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
>>>> Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because it
>>>> was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
>>>> should lose than that the US should gain.
>>>> Then came the invasion of Ukraine.
>>>> As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
>>>> you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.
>>>
>>> If Putin really was a master 7D chess player then the situation
>>> requiring a drastic action probably would not arise at all. But it's the
>>> result of a joint effort where all have miscalculated something. The
>>> Atlanticist-backed 2014 coup in Kiev was violent, unlawful and
>>> anti-democratic, raised destructive extremist forces
>>> that led then to destructive consequences, and those who don't recognize
>>> the latter have no say to criticize the Kremlin action.
>>>
>>> All this does not change the point noted above.
>>
>>
>>   I've no doubts 'the west' DID sponsor the de-facto
>>   coup in Ukraine ... it was an offshoot of their big
>>   ill-fated "arab spring" adventure. However a LOT in
>>   Ukraine LIKED the coup - but it was largely geographical.
>>
>>   All this started with something very small and simple ...
>>   a line on a map drawn in the 50s when it was just
>>   assumed the USSR was going to be "forever". As such it
>>   didn't really MATTER exactly what was defined as "Ukraine".
>>
>>   Until "forever" arrived ....
>>
>>   East Ukraine really IS pretty much "Russia" - that's how
>>   most of the people there see themselves. THEY did NOT
>>   like the coup.
>>
>>   However east Ukraine has a lot of INDUSTRY, and Kyiv
>>   did NOT want to lose that. There's money in ag, but
>>   MORE money and POWER if you also have industry.
>
> Yes. Pre-2014 statistics showed for the Ukraine's east higher
> salaries and more cars per capita and so forth. The Ukraine's
> west always was predominantly agrarian.

Both are good ... but "industry" IS a big plus.
Kyiv does NOT want to give that up.

However this war ... there seems to be more industry
in the west now, a necessary reaction. Maybe the
east rim of Ukraine won't be as important now.

In the end, I think Russia gets to keep eastern
Ukraine. It will be a bitter "win" though. Russia
SHOULD have migrated those industries and those
people 50km east while it had the chance.

>>   And quickly the little line on an old map became a
>>   dick-measuring contest between super-powers. Nobody
>>   is really going to be a "winner" here.
>>
>>   Politics is "forever" - but bear in mind that it's
>>   usually FUCKED. It's just the "Id" dressed in a tux.
>
> The "democracy" agenda is basically based on the idea that it's
> natural that interests of people / factions of the society may
> differ, but a compromise can be agreed in a civilized way.

Greek/western "democracy"/republics may not be the most
appealing solution for everyone. However, as Churchill
once remarked, it may be the "best" crappy solution.

> In the Ukraine case, the Atlanticism encouraged the Ukraine's
> "pro-west" faction to usurp power without hesitating to use
> strong, armed violence, and, moreover, the propaganda machine
> (the MSM) mendaciously misrepresented it as a kind of noble
> "revolution" and "liberation".

Depends. If you were in WESTERN Ukraine then it WAS the
desirable, "noble", solution. If you were in EASTERN
Ukraine, not so much. Ethnic/ideologically divided
nation = NO PEACE.

CAN'T please all of the people all of the time. Trying
to deal with humans is like trying to herd cats.

Alas there's also the CRIMEA question. Russia HAS to
control it for defense/trade/investment reasons.
It COULD rebuild just on the other side of the strait,
I've looked at the maps, but that'd be a LONG term
project. No matter what, I think Russia keeps most of
Crimea. Sure, sure ... a "joint control" solution is
theoretically possible, but such "theories" rarely
work out. Too much bad blood now for that to work.

Unless the Space Aliens show up and totally upset
the existing global paradigm, expect problems like
Ukraine to persist.

Um ... Space Aliens ... NOW is the time ........

On 11/20/23 1:00 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> 56d.1152, <news:AFidnWoR7YiWbMf4nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@earthlink.com>
>> On 11/19/23 11:09 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>>> Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:d91cbff7-006e-4f60-84fa-d5bfce84b499@fido.fw.nu>
>>>> On 11/19/2023 6:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>>>> On 11/19/23 1:23 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>>>>>> Steve Hayes, <news:qg8jli9bb4lal56fe0fgd9h7546hoo7tin@4ax.com>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:30:48 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>
>
>>>>>>>> <https://tinyurl.com/ywwfrr7l> foreignaffairs.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Publics in [these] countries were receptive to Russian
>>>>>>>> narratives ..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Until quite recently both Russian and US narratives were based on
>>>>>>> Realpolitik, and the US one was less likely to be effective because
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> was based on a zero-sum game -- they were more concerned that Russia
>>>>>>> should lose than that the US should gain.
>>>>>>> Then came the invasion of Ukraine.
>>>>>>> As one Canadian diplomat is said to have put it: Mr Putin, I thought
>>>>>>> you were a master chess player, but now you're just throwing dice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Putin really was a master 7D chess player then the situation
>>>>>> requiring a drastic action probably would not arise at all. But it's
>>>>>> the result of a joint effort where all have miscalculated something.
>>>>>> The Atlanticist-backed 2014 coup in Kiev was violent, unlawful and
>>>>>> anti-democratic, raised destructive extremist forces
>>>>>> that led then to destructive consequences, and those who don't
>>>>>> recognize the latter have no say to criticize the Kremlin action.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All this does not change the point noted above.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've no doubts 'the west' DID sponsor the de-facto
>>>>> coup in Ukraine ... it was an offshoot of their big
>>>>> ill-fated "arab spring" adventure. However a LOT in
>>>>> Ukraine LIKED the coup - but it was largely geographical.
>>>>>
>>>>> All this started with something very small and simple ...
>>>>> a line on a map drawn in the 50s when it was just
>>>>> assumed the USSR was going to be "forever". As such it
>>>>> didn't really MATTER exactly what was defined as "Ukraine".
>>>>>
>>>>> Until "forever" arrived ....
>>>>>
>>>>> East Ukraine really IS pretty much "Russia" - that's how
>>>>> most of the people there see themselves. THEY did NOT
>>>>> like the coup.
>>>>>
>>>>> However east Ukraine has a lot of INDUSTRY, and Kyiv
>>>>> did NOT want to lose that. There's money in ag, but
>>>>> MORE money and POWER if you also have industry.
>>>>>
>>>>> And quickly the little line on an old map became a
>>>>> dick-measuring contest between super-powers. Nobody
>>>>> is really going to be a "winner" here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Politics is "forever" - but bear in mind that it's
>>>>> usually FUCKED. It's just the "Id" dressed in a tux.
>>>>
>>>> Wow. That explains why Smirnov keeps cross-posting to all those strange
>>>> newsgroups. Must have finally found an audience receptive to all his
>>>> crap.
>>>> Смирнов, иди нахуй в свой talk.politics.misc или куда там ещё, здесь-то
>>>> ты зачем?
>>>
>>> Sectaries got alarmed.
>>> Outer world brings an uneasy feeling into your bubble of delusion.
>>> Is not it?
>>
>>
>>   What an odd set of sentences ...
>>
>>   HOW many vodka's tonight Oleg ??? Clearly
>>   you can't hold your liquor ... shameful,
>>   juvenile, for a Russian  :-)
>>
>>   Oh well, Putin is gonna get one in the back
>>   of the head pretty soon now. He's ruined Russia
>>   for the next 25 years fer sure. The question is
>>   whether he'll be replace by a sensible non-
>>   imperialist or an ultra-dangerous ultra-nationalist.
>>
>>   If the latter, none of us will have much to worry
>>   about soon after .........
>
> There's in the news that most of Americans nowadays use
> various substances in order to cope with depression etc,
> so it makes them mentally unstable.
>
> American decline is in progress.

Like all 'old empires' - including Russia.

Things move faster these days.

"The Future" is gonna be the Islamics and
probably India. Africa and S.America can't
get their shit together

But you ain't gonna LIKE it .....

China ... ya know ... despite the propaganda I think
it's NOT in such good shape as it appears for The
Future. I'm gonna predict a serious recession/depression
and then a break-up. Xi will be the Last Emperor.

56d.1152, <news:jjidnbOK7OL_Zcf4nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@earthlink.com>
> On 11/19/23 11:47 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

>> The "democracy" agenda is basically based on the idea that it's
>> natural that interests of people / factions of the society may
>> differ, but a compromise can be agreed in a civilized way.
>
>
> Greek/western "democracy"/republics may not be the most
> appealing solution for everyone. However, as Churchill
> once remarked, it may be the "best" crappy solution.
>
>
>> In the Ukraine case, the Atlanticism encouraged the Ukraine's
>> "pro-west" faction to usurp power without hesitating to use
>> strong, armed violence, and, moreover, the propaganda machine
>> (the MSM) mendaciously misrepresented it as a kind of noble
>> "revolution" and "liberation".
>
> Depends. If you were in WESTERN Ukraine then it WAS the
> desirable, "noble", solution. If you were in EASTERN
> Ukraine, not so much. Ethnic/ideologically divided
> nation = NO PEACE.
>
> CAN'T please all of the people all of the time. Trying
> to deal with humans is like trying to herd cats.
>
> Alas there's also the CRIMEA question. Russia HAS to
> control it for defense/trade/investment reasons.
> It COULD rebuild just on the other side of the strait,
> I've looked at the maps, but that'd be a LONG term
> project. No matter what, I think Russia keeps most of
> Crimea. Sure, sure ... a "joint control" solution is
> theoretically possible, but such "theories" rarely
> work out. Too much bad blood now for that to work.
>
> Unless the Space Aliens show up and totally upset
> the existing global paradigm, expect problems like
> Ukraine to persist.
>
> Um ... Space Aliens ... NOW is the time ........

Your rants have no value.

You're a mentally and emotionally unstable babbler.

The point is that "democracy" doesn't imply a violence
as a solution when there's a conflict of interests
between factions. The Atlanticism *encouraged* violence
in the Ukraine case, under "democracy" slogans. And any
violence tends to produce then more violence.

The American scum of your kind are not only stupid but
also believe that something "pro-American" must also be
"democratic", and vice versa, - automatically.

This mistake contributes to American decline, too.

On 11/20/23 4:45 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> 56d.1152, <news:jjidnbOK7OL_Zcf4nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@earthlink.com>
>> On 11/19/23 11:47 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
>>> The "democracy" agenda is basically based on the idea that it's
>>> natural that interests of people / factions of the society may
>>> differ, but a compromise can be agreed in a civilized way.
>>
>>
>>   Greek/western "democracy"/republics may not be the most
>>   appealing solution for everyone. However, as Churchill
>>   once remarked, it may be the "best" crappy solution.
>>
>>
>>> In the Ukraine case, the Atlanticism encouraged the Ukraine's
>>> "pro-west" faction to usurp power without hesitating to use
>>> strong, armed violence, and, moreover, the propaganda machine
>>> (the MSM) mendaciously misrepresented it as a kind of noble
>>> "revolution" and "liberation".
>>
>>   Depends. If you were in WESTERN Ukraine then it WAS the
>>   desirable, "noble", solution. If you were in EASTERN
>>   Ukraine, not so much. Ethnic/ideologically divided
>>   nation = NO PEACE.
>>
>>   CAN'T please all of the people all of the time. Trying
>>   to deal with humans is like trying to herd cats.
>>
>>   Alas there's also the CRIMEA question. Russia HAS to
>>   control it for defense/trade/investment reasons.
>>   It COULD rebuild just on the other side of the strait,
>>   I've looked at the maps, but that'd be a LONG term
>>   project. No matter what, I think Russia keeps most of
>>   Crimea. Sure, sure ... a "joint control" solution is
>>   theoretically possible, but such "theories" rarely
>>   work out. Too much bad blood now for that to work.
>>
>>   Unless the Space Aliens show up and totally upset
>>   the existing global paradigm, expect problems like
>>   Ukraine to persist.
>>
>>   Um ... Space Aliens ... NOW is the time ........
>
> Your rants have no value.
>
> You're a mentally and emotionally unstable babbler.

Translation : "Your conclusions do not serve
my agenda ..."

> The point is that "democracy" doesn't imply a violence as a solution
> when there's a conflict of interests between factions. The Atlanticism
> *encouraged* violence
> in the Ukraine case, under "democracy" slogans. And any
> violence tends to produce then more violence.
>
> The American scum of your kind are not only stupid but
> also believe that something "pro-American" must also be
> "democratic", and vice versa, - automatically.
>
> This mistake contributes to American decline, too.