The description for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIp76IUUrQ includes

エマ・マークウェル（イギリス）　vs　アズハル・アキィロワ（カザフスタン）
Emma Markwell（Great Britain）　vs　Azhar Akylova（Kazakhstan）

What role does the ー play ?

On Tuesday, 1 August 2023 at 21:05:29 UTC+10, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> The description for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIp76IUUrQ includes
>
> エマ・マークウェル（イギリス）　vs　アズハル・アキィロワ（カザフスタン）
> Emma Markwell（Great Britain）　vs　Azhar Akylova（Kazakhstan）
>
> What role does the ー play ?
Do you mean the ー in マークウェル? Nothing strange about it; it's the long vowel symbol which is mainly used with katakana. It's been around for hundreds of years and is very common.
HTH
Jim

On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 14:36:37 -0700 (PDT)
Jim Breen <jimbreen@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 1 August 2023 at 21:05:29 UTC+10, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> > The description for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIp76IUUrQ includes
> >
> > エマ・マークウェル（イギリス）　vs　アズハル・アキィロワ（カザフスタン）
> > Emma Markwell（Great Britain）　vs　Azhar Akylova（Kazakhstan）
> >
> > What role does the ー play ?
>
> Do you mean the ー in マークウェル? Nothing strange about it; it's the long vowel
> symbol which is mainly used with katakana. It's been around for hundreds of years
> and is very common.

Yes , that's the one I mean. It's the only appearance , isn't it ? "Strange"
means from my point of view. But you haven't really answered my question ,
what role does it play ? Is it a member of a general class of symbols and if
yes , what is the name of that class ? Even more importantly , what role does
ー play in the above context ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_length :

□ Most long vowels in the katakana syllabary are written with a
special bar symbol ー (vertical in vertical writing), called a
chōon, as in メーカー mēkā "maker" instead of メカ meka "mecha".
However, some long vowels are written with additional vowel
characters, as with hiragana, with the distinction being
orthographically significant.

Is the ー meant to indicate something about the pronunciation of "Markwell"
and if yes , what ?

> Is the ー meant to indicate something about the pronunciation of "Markwell"
and if yes , what ?

Sorry, when I wrote "it's the long vowel symbol" I assumed you knew the basics of Japanese kana orthography. Long vowels need to be indicated explicitly. In hiragana this is done either by repeating the vowel component (む -> むう, ひ -> ひい, etc.) or in cases such as も using a う (も -> もう).. In katakana it can be done the same way, but with loanwords or transcriptions of foreign names, it is common to use the ー character as a general-purpose vowel extender. The loanword (or name) "mark" is written マーク because the "a" is lengthened. マク would be pronounced "mak(u)" or "muk(u)".

HTH

Jim

On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 20:54:18 UTC+10, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 14:36:37 -0700 (PDT)
> Jim Breen <jimb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 1 August 2023 at 21:05:29 UTC+10, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> > > The description for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIp76IUUrQ includes
> > >
> > > エマ・マークウェル（イギリス）　vs　アズハル・アキィロワ（カザフスタン）
> > > Emma Markwell（Great Britain）　vs　Azhar Akylova（Kazakhstan）
> > >
> > > What role does the ー play ?
> >
> > Do you mean the ー in マークウェル? Nothing strange about it; it's the long vowel
> > symbol which is mainly used with katakana. It's been around for hundreds of years
> > and is very common.
> Yes , that's the one I mean. It's the only appearance , isn't it ? "Strange"
> means from my point of view. But you haven't really answered my question ,
> what role does it play ? Is it a member of a general class of symbols and if
> yes , what is the name of that class ? Even more importantly , what role does
> ー play in the above context ?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_length :
>
> □ Most long vowels in the katakana syllabary are written with a
> special bar symbol ー (vertical in vertical writing), called a
> chōon, as in メーカー mēkā "maker" instead of メカ meka "mecha".
> However, some long vowels are written with additional vowel
> characters, as with hiragana, with the distinction being
> orthographically significant.
>
> Is the ー meant to indicate something about the pronunciation of "Markwell"
> and if yes , what ?

On Wed, 02 Aug 2023 05:18:56 -0700, Jim Breen wrote:

>> Is the ー meant to indicate something about the pronunciation of "Markwell"
> and if yes , what ?
<snip>

Jim Breen
>
> Sorry, when I wrote "it's the long vowel symbol" I assumed
> you knew the basics of Japanese kana orthography. Long vowels
> need to be indicated explicitly. In hiragana this is done
> either by repeating the vowel component (む -> むう, ひ -> ひい,
> etc.) or in cases such as も using a う (も -> もう). In katakana
> it can be done the same way, but with loanwords or
> transcriptions of foreign names, it is common to use the
> character as a general-purpose vowel extender. The loanword
> (or name) "mark" is written マーク because the "a" is lengthened.
> マク would be pronounced "mak(u)" or "muk(u)".
> HTH -- Jim

To elaborate slightly for greater understanding, Japanese is
a syllabic-timed language. In speech, each syllable takes just
about the same amount of time to say.

In normal Japanese writing using the hiragana and katagana
syllabaries, each symbol represents one syllable. Each
takes about the same time to say.

If a syllable ending in English transcription with a vowel (ka)
is followed by the same vowel (a) this could be transcribed kaa
in English transcription. In the Japanese katagana syllabary,
used for foreign words among other purposes, the ー would
be used to show the additional or extended vowel length.

Note that in Japanese, to repeat, this (ka) and (a) each constitute
a syllable. The k a consonant-vowel representation is English by
convention, and does not match the Japanese one-symbol
one-length-of-time in speaking.
Cheers!

jim b.

> On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 20:54:18 UTC+10, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 14:36:37 -0700 (PDT)
>> Jim Breen <jimb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, 1 August 2023 at 21:05:29 UTC+10, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>> > > The description for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIp76IUUrQ includes
>> > >
>> > > エマ・マークウェル（イギリス）　vs　アズハル・アキィロワ（カザフスタン）
>> > > Emma Markwell（Great Britain）　vs　Azhar Akylova（Kazakhstan）
>> > >
>> > > What role does the ー play ?
>> >
>> > Do you mean the ー in マークウェル? Nothing strange about it; it's the long vowel
>> > symbol which is mainly used with katakana. It's been around for hundreds of years
>> > and is very common.
>> Yes , that's the one I mean. It's the only appearance , isn't it ? "Strange"
>> means from my point of view. But you haven't really answered my question ,
>> what role does it play ? Is it a member of a general class of symbols and if
>> yes , what is the name of that class ? Even more importantly , what role does
>> ー play in the above context ?
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_length :
>>
>> □ Most long vowels in the katakana syllabary are written with a
>> special bar symbol ー (vertical in vertical writing), called a
>> chōon, as in メーカー mēkā "maker" instead of メカ meka "mecha".
>> However, some long vowels are written with additional vowel
>> characters, as with hiragana, with the distinction being
>> orthographically significant.
>>
>> Is the ー meant to indicate something about the pronunciation of "Markwell"
>> and if yes , what ?

--
UNIX is not user-unfriendly, it merely
expects users to be computer friendly.

On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 05:18:56 -0700 (PDT)
Jim Breen <jimbreen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is the ー meant to indicate something about the pronunciation of "Markwell"
> and if yes , what ?
>
> Sorry, when I wrote "it's the long vowel symbol" I assumed you knew the basics of
> Japanese kana orthography. Long vowels need to be indicated explicitly. In hiragana
> this is done either by repeating the vowel component (む -> むう, ひ -> ひい, etc.)
> or in cases such as も using a う (も -> もう). In katakana it can be done the same
> way, but with loanwords or transcriptions of foreign names, it is common to use the
> ー character as a general-purpose vowel extender. The loanword (or name) "mark" is
> written マーク because the "a" is lengthened. マク would be pronounced "mak(u)" or
> "muk(u)".

In English , the "ma" in "Emma" and "Markwell" are pronounced with the same
length. So why is it that only the "ma" in "Markwell" needs to be extended ?
In other words , why is the trascription of "Emma Markwell"
エマ・マークウェル and not エマー・マークウェル ?

In article <+rWjDkXOR9ScFoXtJ@bongo-ra.co>,
Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
>In English , the "ma" in "Emma" and "Markwell" are pronounced with the same
>length.

I don't know about your accent, but this isn't true for
my standard southern British accent (non-rhotic). The
'ma' in Mark is noticeably longer in duration (and also
not the same vowel).

-- PMM

pmaydell@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Peter Maydell) writes:
>In article <+rWjDkXOR9ScFoXtJ@bongo-ra.co>,
>Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
>>In English , the "ma" in "Emma" and "Markwell" are pronounced with the same
>>length.
>I don't know about your accent, but this isn't true for
>my standard southern British accent (non-rhotic). The
>'ma' in Mark is noticeably longer in duration (and also
>not the same vowel).

The following pronunciations are based on a pronunciation dictionary.

Emma ˈᴇm ə
marking ˈmɑːkɩŋ ‖ ˈmɑːrkɩŋ

ᴇ midway between [e] and [ɛ], as in "etymology"
ɩ more open and back than [i], between [i] and [ə], unrounded [Y]
‖ separates BrE (left) from AmE (right)
r the American English r

A final schwa ə (as in "Emma") is pronounced ʌ in front of a pause,
which is nearer to ɑ.

The following chart shows the position of the tongue when pronouncing
the symbols if displayed with a monospaced font in a good newsreader.

front back unrounded

high
ɩ lower-high
ə higher mid
ᴇ lower-mid
ʌ higher-low
ɑ low

On 03 Aug 2023 20:22:05 +0100 (BST)
pmaydell@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Peter Maydell) wrote:
> In article <+rWjDkXOR9ScFoXtJ@bongo-ra.co>,
> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
> >In English , the "ma" in "Emma" and "Markwell" are pronounced with the same
> >length.
>
> I don't know about your accent, but this isn't true for
> my standard southern British accent (non-rhotic). The
> 'ma' in Mark is noticeably longer in duration (and also
> not the same vowel).

I see. I can't say that I've ever noticed a difference but perhaps I
wasn't paying close enough attention. Anyway , I see now what information
the ー is supposed to convey.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 15:42:37 +0000, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 05:18:56 -0700 (PDT)
> Jim Breen <jimbreen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Is the ー meant to indicate something about the pronunciation of "Markwell"
>> and if yes , what ?
>>
>> Sorry, when I wrote "it's the long vowel symbol" I assumed you knew the basics of
>> Japanese kana orthography. Long vowels need to be indicated explicitly. In hiragana
>> this is done either by repeating the vowel component (む -> むう, ひ -> ひい, etc.)
>> or in cases such as も using a う (も -> もう). In katakana it can be done the same
>> way, but with loanwords or transcriptions of foreign names, it is common to use the
>> ー character as a general-purpose vowel extender. The loanword (or name) "mark" is
>> written マーク because the "a" is lengthened. マク would be pronounced "mak(u)" or
>> "muk(u)".
>
> In English , the "ma" in "Emma" and "Markwell" are pronounced with the same
> length. So why is it that only the "ma" in "Markwell" needs to be extended ?
> In other words , why is the trascription of "Emma Markwell"
> エマ・マークウェル and not エマー・マークウェル ?

On a different tack, the ma of emma and of markwell are not always
(or often, I would venture) the same length. This is unlike
the Japanese syllabary system.

Separately, the spelling and transcription of names is typically
inconsistent in all languages that use a Latin alphabet. My
surname is Beard, but genealogical research finds it appears
as Bard or Baird, and including some odd one-off misspellings
may appear in the records in any of 14 other spellings as well.

Variant transcription of names into Japanese is likewise not
unknown.

Cheers!

jim b.

--
UNIX is not user-unfriendly, it merely
expects users to be computer friendly.