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interests / alt.english.usage / Innocent question

Innocent question

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From: hayesstw@telkomsa.net (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Innocent question
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:14:12 +0200
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by: Steve Hayes - Sat, 27 Apr 2024 11:14 UTC

Which one would you use, and why?

1. innocent until proved guilty

2. innocent until proven guilty

Which was the original usage?

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Re: Innocent question

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From: vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid (Hibou)
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Subject: Re: Innocent question
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:24:03 +0100
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by: Hibou - Sat, 27 Apr 2024 12:24 UTC

Le 27/04/2024 à 12:14, Steve Hayes a écrit :
>
> Which one would you use, and why?
>
> 1. innocent until proved guilty
>
> 2. innocent until proven guilty

'Proven' - it slips more easily off the tongue. I think I'd also favour
'till'.

> Which was the original usage?

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=innocent+until+proven+guilty%2Cinnocent+until+proved+guilty%2Cinnocent+till+proven+guilty&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3>

Re: Innocent question

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From: gadekryds@lundhansen.dk (Bertel Lund Hansen)
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Subject: Re: Innocent question
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 14:32:52 +0200
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by: Bertel Lund Hansen - Sat, 27 Apr 2024 12:32 UTC

Steve Hayes wrote:

> Which one would you use, and why?
>
> 1. innocent until proved guilty
>
> 2. innocent until proven guilty

2. with no doubt.

Why? 1. is impossible. I suppose that 2. is what I have met before.

It may play a role that we in Danish also have an n-form of the past
participle of some verbs, and that form is often used in idiomatic
expressions. In some cases the standard form even has another meaning.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

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From: wibbleypants@gmail.com (Paul Carmichael)
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Subject: Re: Innocent question
Date: 27 Apr 2024 14:20:24 GMT
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by: Paul Carmichael - Sat, 27 Apr 2024 14:20 UTC

El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:14:12 +0200, Steve Hayes escribió:

> Which one would you use, and why?
>
> 1. innocent until proved guilty
>
> 2. innocent until proven guilty
>
>
> Which was the original usage?

1 is the only one normally heard (it's a set phrase), but I don't see
anything wrong with 1.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

Re: Innocent question

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From: anton.txt@gmail.moc (Anton Shepelev)
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Subject: Re: Innocent question
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:50:19 +0300
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by: Anton Shepelev - Sun, 28 Apr 2024 18:50 UTC

Hibou to Anton Shepelev:

> > Which one would you use, and why?
> >
> > 1. innocent until proved guilty
> > 2. innocent until proven guilty
>
> 'Proven' - it slips more easily off the tongue.

It is also /the/ grammrical variant, because `proven' above
is not a verb.

> I think I'd also favour 'till'.

Probably, whereas in "Innocent until caught," `until' is
definitely better, and also a fun game:

<https://www.myabandonware.com/game/innocent-until-caught-1zi>

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Subject	Author
Innocent question	Steve Hayes
Re: Innocent question	Hibou
Re: Innocent question	Anton Shepelev
Re: Innocent question	Bertel Lund Hansen
Re: Innocent question	Paul Carmichael