I have tried writing kanji both with correct stroke order (CSO) and the
stroke order which I find easiest and the final result doesn't look any
different to me. Am I missing something or is CSO authenticity (or something)
for the sake of authenticity ?

For example if a kanji includes a shape which is approximately a rectangle
then I tend to write the "rectangle" as 1 stroke starting from the longest
line (or one of the 2 longest). With all kanji , I find it easier to write
first longer lines and to write one after another lines which touch each
other because such practices make it easier for me to remember and write what
goes where relative to the other elements.

For example , when writing the kanji for "nakaba" (half) I write first the
vertical line , then the 2 horizontal lines and finally the 2 short sloped
lines left and right. This is almost the reverse of CSO. So are my habits
harmless or have they the potential to cause some kind of trouble later ?
If a Japanese person saw me writing kanji like this , would they think
poorly of me in some way ?

And while I'm at it , how constant is CSO ? Do all native users of Japanese
use the same stroke order ? Has it been constant for long periods of time ?

--
All other questions had been answered, and until this last question
was answered also, AC might not release his consciousness.
"The last question"

On Sat, 27 May 2023 09:29:12 +0000, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

> I have tried writing kanji both with correct stroke order (CSO) and the
> stroke order which I find easiest and the final result doesn't look any
> different to me. Am I missing something or is CSO authenticity (or
> something) for the sake of authenticity ?

If you go on from block-style writing to cursive, "running hand," you
will find the continuity between the two in stroke sequence is a
key factor, though one commonly taken for granted.

Also, some systems of dictionary look-up rely on stroke order,
just as alphabetic dictionaries rely on letter order for look-up.

> If a Japanese person saw me writing kanji like this , would they think
> poorly of me in some way ?

The Japanese take as an article of faith than not merely
non-Japanese but not even Japanese raised outside Japan and
not saturated in their culture and ethos from birth can ever
fully master the Japanese language and associated matters.

As an illustration, during the 1930s, there was savage debate
within elite circles in Japan whether Japanese born in
the U.S. but taught Japanese (in addition to English in
the public schools) and Japanese customs, morals, and mores
in the home should be regarded as "true Japanese," trustworthy
to be told Japan's highest governmental and commercial secrets
and participate in discourse and decision-making on Japan's
national goals as well as strategies and tactics.

FWIW, the 'No's" dominated by a wide margin, though a few
did openly and persistently favor treating them as
full-fleged Japanese.

Your bungling will more likely draw great praise for your
attempt to learn that which you are incapable of.

> And while I'm at it , how constant is CSO ? Do all native users of
> Japanese use the same stroke order ? Has it been constant for long
> periods of time ?

"Correct stroke order" is specified by the Japanese government.

Something in the back of my mind says there are a very few variants
in stroke order, mostly based on differences in the stroke order
for the equivalent Chinese characters ("Kanji") actually written
in and by Chinese. You will find them in cursive or artistic
handwriting. Note there are similarly multiple "on" readings
("Chinese readings") for many kanji, based on when and where
the kanji was brought over from China.

Cheers!

jim b.

--
UNIX is not user-unfriendly, it merely
expects users to be computer friendly.

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 2:31:03 AM UTC-7, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> I have tried writing kanji both with correct stroke order (CSO) and the
> stroke order which I find easiest and the final result doesn't look any
> different to me. Am I missing something or is CSO authenticity (or something)
> for the sake of authenticity ?
>
> For example if a kanji includes a shape which is approximately a rectangle
> then I tend to write the "rectangle" as 1 stroke starting from the longest
> line (or one of the 2 longest). With all kanji , I find it easier to write
> first longer lines and to write one after another lines which touch each
> other because such practices make it easier for me to remember and write what
> goes where relative to the other elements.
>
> For example , when writing the kanji for "nakaba" (half) I write first the
> vertical line , then the 2 horizontal lines and finally the 2 short sloped
> lines left and right. This is almost the reverse of CSO. So are my habits
> harmless or have they the potential to cause some kind of trouble later ?
> If a Japanese person saw me writing kanji like this , would they think
> poorly of me in some way ?
>
> And while I'm at it , how constant is CSO ? Do all native users of Japanese
> use the same stroke order ? Has it been constant for long periods of time ?
>
> --
> All other questions had been answered, and until this last question
> was answered also, AC might not release his consciousness.
> "The last question"

According to Chatbot BARD:

There are several reasons why stroke order is important when writing Chinese characters.

It helps to ensure that the character is written correctly. Chinese characters are made up of a series of strokes, and the order in which these strokes are written can affect the meaning of the character. For example, the character for "woman" (女) is written with two strokes: a horizontal stroke followed by a vertical stroke. If the order of these strokes is reversed, the character becomes "man" (男).

It helps to make the character more legible. When written in the correct order, the strokes of a Chinese character flow together more smoothly, making the character easier to read.

It helps to improve handwriting skills. Learning the correct stroke order for Chinese characters can help to improve handwriting skills in general. This is because it teaches students how to control the pen or brush and how to make smooth, even strokes.

In addition to these practical reasons, stroke order is also important for cultural reasons. In Chinese culture, calligraphy is a highly valued art form, and the correct stroke order is seen as essential for creating beautiful and elegant characters.

Here are some tips for learning the correct stroke order for Chinese characters:

Start by learning the basic strokes. There are 11 basic strokes in Chinese calligraphy, and once you have mastered these, you can begin to combine them to form characters.

Practice writing characters slowly and carefully. It is important to focus on the correct stroke order, even if it takes you longer to write the character.

Use a reference book or online resource to help you learn the correct stroke order for each character.

Be patient and persistent. Learning the correct stroke order takes time and practice, but it is a valuable skill that will help you to improve your Chinese handwriting.

On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:36:11 -0000 (UTC)
Jim <jim.beard@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 27 May 2023 09:29:12 +0000, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>
> > I have tried writing kanji both with correct stroke order (CSO) and the
> > stroke order which I find easiest and the final result doesn't look any
> > different to me. Am I missing something or is CSO authenticity (or
> > something) for the sake of authenticity ?
>
> If you go on from block-style writing to cursive, "running hand," you
> will find the continuity between the two in stroke sequence is a
> key factor, though one commonly taken for granted.

Continuity between which two ? And when you say "cursive" , do you mean
that it is actually possible to write Japanese without lifting your pen
at all ?

> Also, some systems of dictionary look-up rely on stroke order,
> just as alphabetic dictionaries rely on letter order for look-up.
>
> > If a Japanese person saw me writing kanji like this , would they think
> > poorly of me in some way ?

[...]

> Your bungling will more likely draw great praise for your
> attempt to learn that which you are incapable of.

Hehe , that's a relief.

> > And while I'm at it , how constant is CSO ? Do all native users of
> > Japanese use the same stroke order ? Has it been constant for long
> > periods of time ?
>
> "Correct stroke order" is specified by the Japanese government.

Does the Japanese government have an official position why stroke order is
important , therefore they must specify it ? The fact that they specify it I
assume means that it has to be taught in schools. Are there any other
consequences ? And who specified stroke order in older times , say before
WW2 ?

On Sat, 27 May 2023 16:01:25 -0700 (PDT)
gggg gggg <ggggg9271@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 2:31:03 AM UTC-7, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
[...]
> According to Chatbot BARD:

Based on experiences on various newsgroups in the last few weeks , I don't
trust chatbot replies on technical matters (potentially technical on this
occasion) so at this point I stopped reading. But if a human has read
BARD's reply and can vouch for it , I will read it.

I note also that comp.ai.shells exists precisely to discuss chatbots
and their output yet people who sprinkle chatbot output all over the
place , never seem to post there.

On Sun, 28 May 2023 08:01:02 +0000, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

> On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:36:11 -0000 (UTC)
> Jim <jim.beard@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 27 May 2023 09:29:12 +0000, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>>
>> > I have tried writing kanji both with correct stroke order (CSO) and
>> > the stroke order which I find easiest and the final result doesn't
>> > look any different to me. Am I missing something or is CSO
>> > authenticity (or something) for the sake of authenticity ?
>>
>> If you go on from block-style writing to cursive, "running hand," you
>> will find the continuity between the two in stroke sequence is a key
>> factor, though one commonly taken for granted.
>
> Continuity between which two ? And when you say "cursive" , do you mean
> that it is actually possible to write Japanese without lifting your pen
> at all ?

Between block-style writing, that generally used in printed copy,
and the "cursive" or "running hand."

First, Japanese (and Chinese) writing tradition does not include
use of a "pen." The writing instrument is a "brush."

Second, when the brush has been dipped in ink, usually saturating
about one-third of the length of the brush, you can continue to
write without lifting the brush until there is too little ink
remaining to provide legibility.

This may result in continuing lines for two or three characters.
Beyond that, it is usually better to lift the brush, allowing more
ink to descend, with lifting the brush commonly between characters.

Searching the web for Japanese (or Chinese) calligraphy will turn
up a great amount of information and rubbish of all sorts.

>> Also, some systems of dictionary look-up rely on stroke order,
>> just as alphabetic dictionaries rely on letter order for look-up.
>>
>> > If a Japanese person saw me writing kanji like this , would they
>> > think poorly of me in some way ?
>
> [...]
>
>> Your bungling will more likely draw great praise for your attempt to
>> learn that which you are incapable of.
>
> Hehe , that's a relief.
>
>> > And while I'm at it , how constant is CSO ? Do all native users of
>> > Japanese use the same stroke order ? Has it been constant for long
>> > periods of time ?
>>
>> "Correct stroke order" is specified by the Japanese government.
>
> Does the Japanese government have an official position why stroke order
> is important , therefore they must specify it ? The fact that they
> specify it I assume means that it has to be taught in schools. Are there
> any other consequences ? And who specified stroke order in older times ,
> say before WW2 ?

Stroke order in Chinese probably goes back well over 2000 years, from
early times when characters were imagined and codified. The Japanese
learned how to write characters from the Chinese, and stroke order
likewise.

Imitate the classic calligraphers of ancient times and you will find
you have to use their techniques, including stroke order, to produce
artistic copies.

Beyond that, I will simply observe that the Japanese have long been
a high-density population and many details of life have long been
specified in what Westerners may find excruciating detail, if they
become aware of it at all. Things relating to language are particulary
so. For a simple illustration, forms of verbs used in conversation
differ, depending on the relative social status of participants.
Likewise, verb forms will differ depending on the staus of the
speaker and the person(s) referred to. "Polite language."

I have heard a story from a U.S.-born and educated Japanese (in
genetic ancestry, at least) who in Tokyo on a bus made an error
in choice of verb form when addressing an elderly lady. He
was subjected to a savage scolding, including accusations of
stupidity, egregious manners, and unfitness to be a Japanese.
This from a woman who did not recognize that he had not been
born, raised, and educated in Japan, and therefore had not
be inbued with "true Japanese culture."

Cheers!

jim b.

--
UNIX is not user-unfriendly, it merely
expects users to be computer friendly.

In article <u4vnb7$srlk$1@dont-email.me>, Jim <jim.beard@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 28 May 2023 08:01:02 +0000, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>> On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:36:11 -0000 (UTC)
>> Jim <jim.beard@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 27 May 2023 09:29:12 +0000, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>>>
>>> > I have tried writing kanji both with correct stroke order (CSO) and
>>> > the stroke order which I find easiest and the final result doesn't
>>> > look any different to me. Am I missing something or is CSO
>>> > authenticity (or something) for the sake of authenticity ?
>>>
>>> If you go on from block-style writing to cursive, "running hand," you
>>> will find the continuity between the two in stroke sequence is a key
>>> factor, though one commonly taken for granted.
>>
>> Continuity between which two ? And when you say "cursive" , do you mean
>> that it is actually possible to write Japanese without lifting your pen
>> at all ?
>
>Between block-style writing, that generally used in printed copy,
>and the "cursive" or "running hand."
>
>First, Japanese (and Chinese) writing tradition does not include
>use of a "pen." The writing instrument is a "brush."

Well, the *tradition* may not, but I would put good money
on many more characters being written in Japan today using
pens of various forms than with brushes, so how the writing
system works with a pen is more important for most learners
than what you might or might not do with a brush.

My personal take is that stroke order matters because
as you start to write more quickly the shape of the
characters starts to deform (in a 'handwriting rather
than block letters' kind of way). Not using the standard
stroke order means your quickly-written characters don't
look like everybody else's and are harder to read.

Plus it's a lot easier to learn the right stroke order
as you go along than to have to relearn it later when
you've built up a lot of wrong muscle memory.

-- PMM

Στις 27/5/2023 12:29 μ.μ., ο/η Spiros Bousbouras έγραψε:
> I have tried writing kanji both with correct stroke order (CSO) and the
> stroke order which I find easiest and the final result doesn't look any
> different to me. Am I missing something or is CSO authenticity (or something)
> for the sake of authenticity ?
>
> For example if a kanji includes a shape which is approximately a rectangle
> then I tend to write the "rectangle" as 1 stroke starting from the longest
> line (or one of the 2 longest). With all kanji , I find it easier to write
> first longer lines and to write one after another lines which touch each
> other because such practices make it easier for me to remember and write what
> goes where relative to the other elements.
>
> For example , when writing the kanji for "nakaba" (half) I write first the
> vertical line , then the 2 horizontal lines and finally the 2 short sloped
> lines left and right. This is almost the reverse of CSO. So are my habits
> harmless or have they the potential to cause some kind of trouble later ?
> If a Japanese person saw me writing kanji like this , would they think
> poorly of me in some way ?
>
> And while I'm at it , how constant is CSO ? Do all native users of Japanese
> use the same stroke order ? Has it been constant for long periods of time ?
>
our japanede teacher said, that japanese is like karate, you must follow
an order, you can't do whatever you like. the same is for kana, you have
to draw them in a specific way.

On 28 May 2023 22:40:41 +0100 (BST)
pmaydell@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Peter Maydell) wrote:
> In article <u4vnb7$srlk$1@dont-email.me>, Jim <jim.beard@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Sun, 28 May 2023 08:01:02 +0000, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> >> On Sat, 27 May 2023 14:36:11 -0000 (UTC)
> >> Jim <jim.beard@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 27 May 2023 09:29:12 +0000, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > I have tried writing kanji both with correct stroke order (CSO) and
> >>> > the stroke order which I find easiest and the final result doesn't
> >>> > look any different to me. Am I missing something or is CSO
> >>> > authenticity (or something) for the sake of authenticity ?

[...]

> Plus it's a lot easier to learn the right stroke order
> as you go along than to have to relearn it later when
> you've built up a lot of wrong muscle memory.

Of course ; if you are going to learn it eventually then you may as well
start with it. But I was trying to determine whether I will need to learn
it eventually or I will be able to manage indefinitely with my own
system :-)

Στις 29/5/2023 2:55 μ.μ., ο/η Dimitris Tzortzakakis έγραψε:
> Στις 27/5/2023 12:29 μ.μ., ο/η Spiros Bousbouras έγραψε:
>> I have tried writing kanji both with correct stroke order (CSO) and the
>> stroke order which I find easiest and the final result doesn't look any
>> different to me. Am I missing something or is CSO authenticity (or
>> something)
>> for the sake of authenticity ?
>>
>> For example if a kanji includes a shape which is approximately a
>> rectangle
>> then I tend to write the "rectangle" as 1 stroke starting from the
>> longest
>> line (or one of the 2 longest). With all kanji , I find it easier to
>> write
>> first longer lines and to write one after another lines which touch each
>> other because such practices make it easier for me to remember and
>> write what
>> goes where relative to the other elements.
>>
>> For example , when writing the kanji for "nakaba" (half) I write first
>> the
>> vertical line , then the 2 horizontal lines and finally the 2 short
>> sloped
>> lines left and right. This is almost the reverse of CSO. So are my habits
>> harmless or have they the potential to cause some kind of trouble later ?
>> If a Japanese person saw me writing kanji like this , would they think
>> poorly of me in some way ?
>>
>> And while I'm at it , how constant is CSO ? Do all native users of
>> Japanese
>> use the same stroke order ? Has it been constant for long periods of
>> time ?
>>
> our japanede teacher said, that japanese is like karate, you must follow
> an order, you can't do whatever you like. the same is for kana, you have
> to draw them in a specific way.
and for good measure, here is a scan from my notebook, showing her
ingenious method of teaching japanese to "gaijin".
https://www.flickr.com/photos/167258532@N02/52934738918/in/dateposted-public/

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 2:31:03 AM UTC-7, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> I have tried writing kanji both with correct stroke order (CSO) and the
> stroke order which I find easiest and the final result doesn't look any
> different to me. Am I missing something or is CSO authenticity (or something)
> for the sake of authenticity ?
>
> For example if a kanji includes a shape which is approximately a rectangle
> then I tend to write the "rectangle" as 1 stroke starting from the longest
> line (or one of the 2 longest). With all kanji , I find it easier to write
> first longer lines and to write one after another lines which touch each
> other because such practices make it easier for me to remember and write what
> goes where relative to the other elements.
>
> For example , when writing the kanji for "nakaba" (half) I write first the
> vertical line , then the 2 horizontal lines and finally the 2 short sloped
> lines left and right. This is almost the reverse of CSO. So are my habits
> harmless or have they the potential to cause some kind of trouble later ?
> If a Japanese person saw me writing kanji like this , would they think
> poorly of me in some way ?
>
> And while I'm at it , how constant is CSO ? Do all native users of Japanese
> use the same stroke order ? Has it been constant for long periods of time ?
>
> --
> All other questions had been answered, and until this last question
> was answered also, AC might not release his consciousness.
> "The last question"

Chatbot BARD answers the question: Is stroke order in Chinese the same as in Japanese?

No, stroke order in Chinese is not the same as in Japanese. There are some similarities, but there are also some key differences.

Here are some of the similarities between Chinese and Japanese stroke order:

Both languages generally follow the principle of writing from top to bottom, left to right.
Both languages have a few basic strokes that are used to construct more complex characters.
Both languages have some characters that have the same stroke order.
Here are some of the differences between Chinese and Japanese stroke order:

The number of strokes in a character can vary more in Chinese than in Japanese.
The order of strokes in a character can vary more in Chinese than in Japanese.
There are some characters that have different stroke order in Chinese and Japanese.
For example, the character 木 (mù, "tree") is written with the following stroke order in Chinese:

Draw a vertical stroke from top to bottom.
Draw a horizontal stroke from left to right, crossing the vertical stroke.
Draw a horizontal stroke from right to left, crossing the vertical stroke.
The same character is written with the following stroke order in Japanese:

Draw a horizontal stroke from left to right.
Draw a vertical stroke from top to bottom, crossing the horizontal stroke.
Draw a horizontal stroke from right to left, crossing the vertical stroke.
As you can see, the order of the strokes is different in Chinese and Japanese. This is just one example of the many differences between Chinese and Japanese stroke order.

If you are learning Chinese or Japanese, it is important to learn the correct stroke order for each character. This will help you to write the characters correctly and to read them more easily.