On 26/04/24 22:49, Chris Elvidge wrote:
> On 26/04/2024 at 12:15, Peter Moylan wrote:

>> On Thunderbird I use an add-on handling several codes. There are
>> separate Encode and Decode menus, which means that rot13 appears
>> twice, but that makes sense for symmetry. The other codes that are
>> handled are Base64, UUEncode, URI encoders (I haven't checked what
>> those do), Unicode to numeric (several bases), Kenny, Morse, Leet,
>> Reverse, Upper case, Lower case.
>>
>> I don't know what Kenny does. I do know what Leet does, but
>> consider it stupid.
>
> What's the add-on called. I can't find one. TBird 52.

It's called Mnenhy, and I added it so long ago that I don't know whether
it's still around. It does a few things that I didn't really want, but
at the time I got it it was the only Thunderbird extension that I could
find that did ROT-13.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 27/04/24 01:07, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Fri, 26 Apr 2024 07:39:55 +0000, Paul Carmichael escribió:
>
>> Maybe the better option would be to XOR all the letters.
>
> I have no idea why I said that. Total nonsense.

I assumed that you meant XOR each byte with an all-1 value, i.e. invert
the bits. That would work, if enough people accepted it.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan blurted out:
> On 26/04/24 18:22, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2024-04-26 08:05:02 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:
>>
>>> Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The other word ROT'ed is:
>>>>>
>>>>> bhgeb
>>>>
>>>> Do people still use rot13?
>>>
>>> Of course.
>>>
>>>> In this new world where even speakers of English acknowledge that
>>>> English is not the only language in the world, surely it's not
>>>> really a lot of use.
>>>
>>> It fulfills its purpose: to hide the text from people who don't
>>> want to see it (yet).
>
> I see Paul's point, though. Rot13 can't handle accented characters, and
> it certainly can't handle non-Latin scripts.
>
>>>> The newsreader that I use doesn't have the option to rot13
>>>> stuff.
>>>
>>> Neither has mine, but I have written a small Python script to
>>> handle it.
>>
>> Mine has it, with separate commands for Scramble and Unscramble. The
>> programmer must have known that they do exactly the same thing, but
>> perhaps some users don't.
>
> On Thunderbird I use an add-on handling several codes. There are
> separate Encode and Decode menus, which means that rot13 appears twice,
> but that makes sense for symmetry. The other codes that are handled are
> Base64, UUEncode, URI encoders (I haven't checked what those do),

They should escape (HTML style) several special characters.

> Unicode
> to numeric (several bases), Kenny, Morse, Leet, Reverse, Upper case,
> Lower case.
>
> I don't know what Kenny does. I do know what Leet does, but consider it
> stupid.

Well, not everyone has the same sense of humor.

/dps "got a few dad jokes saved up"

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

Friday, Paul Carmichael murmurred ...
> El Fri, 26 Apr 2024 07:39:55 +0000, Paul Carmichael escribió:
>
>> Maybe the better option would be to XOR
>> all the letters.
>
> I have no idea why I said that. Total nonsense.

It works very well if you can agree on what to XOR with.

/dps

--
And the Raiders and the Broncos have life now in the West. I thought
they were both nearly dead if not quite really most sincerely dead. --
Mike Salfino, fivethirtyeight.com

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> When I was first using email my Spanish-speaking correspondents ignored
> accents (á etc.), ¡ and ¿, but the one they couldn't ignore was ñ,
> variously rendered as ni, ny, gn, but never as nn (which seemed the
> most logical to me).

In Catalonia they write "ny".

https://www.roughguides.com/spain/catalunya/

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

occam wrote:

> I'm sorry. Usage of English by musicians is not a good recommendation
> in my world.

English has words and expressions from the sea, from farming, from
trains, from Indian words. But British musicians are outcast?

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

On 26/04/2024 12:33, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> occam wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry. Usage of English by musicians is not a good recommendation
>> in my world.
>
> There are thousands of different English groups who develop their own
> version of English. Why are musicians unqualified?
>

Did I say 'unqualified'? Who did?

Some reasons I would not take any language pointers from musicians:

- the want to match the rhythm of their music to their silly lyrics
- they will not hesitate to distort language to fit their cacophonies
- they are normally drugged to their tits when they produce their
linguistic aberrations
- they regard this last process as 'creativity' - a good reason to
ignore them.

I love you pa, I love you ma, oh-waa oh-waa. (Lyrics brought to you by
a Nobel Prize winning musician.)

On 27/04/2024 08:41, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> occam wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry. Usage of English by musicians is not a good recommendation
>> in my world.
>
> English has words and expressions from the sea, from farming, from
> trains, from Indian words. But British musicians are outcast?
>

Who said 'British'? (Oh, just you.)

occam wrote:

> Some reasons I would not take any language pointers from musicians:
>
> - the want to match the rhythm of their music to their silly lyrics
> - they will not hesitate to distort language to fit their cacophonies
> - they are normally drugged to their tits when they produce their
> linguistic aberrations
> - they regard this last process as 'creativity' - a good reason to
> ignore them.

Those objections all have to do with lyrics. They are produced by
song-writers who may not be musicians.

"Intro" is not a 'lyrics' word. It is a work word used by musicians,
song-writers, soundmen, producers, roadies and ordinary people.

And I'd be surprised if you don't find it outside the music world.

[A bit later:]

https://vimeo.com/search?q=lecture%20intro

No need to get surprised.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

On 2024-04-27 06:30:48 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> When I was first using email my Spanish-speaking correspondents ignored
>> accents (á etc.), ¡ and ¿, but the one they couldn't ignore was ñ,
>> variously rendered as ni, ny, gn, but never as nn (which seemed the
>> most logical to me).
>
> In Catalonia they write "ny".
>
> https://www.roughguides.com/spain/catalunya/

Indeed, as in Hungary. I forgot to mention nh (Portuguese) used by some
people in the early days.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 09:41:46 +1000, Peter Moylan escribió:

> On 27/04/24 01:07, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> El Fri, 26 Apr 2024 07:39:55 +0000, Paul Carmichael escribió:
>>
>>> Maybe the better option would be to XOR all the letters.
>>
>> I have no idea why I said that. Total nonsense.
>
> I assumed that you meant XOR each byte with an all-1 value, i.e. invert
> the bits. That would work, if enough people accepted it.

With ff, yes, that might work.

Or in BCD with 15 on a nybble quantity.

Perhaps I should make tea?

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 08:30:48 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> When I was first using email my Spanish-speaking correspondents ignored
>> accents (á etc.), ¡ and ¿, but the one they couldn't ignore was ñ,
>> variously rendered as ni, ny, gn, but never as nn (which seemed the
>> most logical to me).
>
> In Catalonia they write "ny".
>
> https://www.roughguides.com/spain/catalunya/

Heh. Prolly just to avoid using a "Spanish" letter. Anyway, let's not go
there.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

On 2024-04-27 08:23:52 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:

> El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 08:30:48 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>>> When I was first using email my Spanish-speaking correspondents ignored
>>> accents (á etc.), ¡ and ¿, but the one they couldn't ignore was ñ,
>>> variously rendered as ni, ny, gn, but never as nn (which seemed the
>>> most logical to me).
>>
>> In Catalonia they write "ny".
>>
>> https://www.roughguides.com/spain/catalunya/
>
>
> Heh. Prolly just to avoid using a "Spanish" letter. Anyway, let's not go
> there.

I think you're probably right there. After all, they certainly have ñ
on their keyboards.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 27/04/2024 at 00:37, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 26/04/24 22:49, Chris Elvidge wrote:
>> On 26/04/2024 at 12:15, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>>> On Thunderbird I use an add-on handling several codes. There are
>>> separate Encode and Decode menus, which means that rot13 appears
>>> twice, but that makes sense for symmetry. The other codes that are
>>> handled are Base64, UUEncode, URI encoders (I haven't checked what
>>> those do), Unicode to numeric (several bases), Kenny, Morse, Leet,
>>> Reverse, Upper case, Lower case.
>>>
>>> I don't know what Kenny does. I do know what Leet does, but
>>> consider it stupid.
>>
>> What's the add-on called. I can't find one. TBird 52.
>
> It's called Mnenhy, and I added it so long ago that I don't know whether
> it's still around. It does a few things that I didn't really want, but
> at the time I got it it was the only Thunderbird extension that I could
> find that did ROT-13.
>

Thanks. It's at
https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-us/thunderbird/addon/mnenhy/
Installs on TBird52.
Now to see if it works!

OK. Doesn't work at all on 52.?
See Reviews on that page.
Thanks anyway.

--
Chris Elvidge, England
MUD IS NOT ONE OF THE 4 FOOD GROUPS

On 2024-04-27 08:48:26 +0000, Athel Cornish-Bowden said:

> On 2024-04-27 08:23:52 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:
>
>> El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 08:30:48 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>>
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I was first using email my Spanish-speaking correspondents ignored
>>>> accents (á etc.), ¡ and ¿, but the one they couldn't ignore was ñ,
>>>> variously rendered as ni, ny, gn, but never as nn (which seemed the
>>>> most logical to me).
>>>
>>> In Catalonia they write "ny".
>>>
>>> https://www.roughguides.com/spain/catalunya/
>>
>>
>> Heh. Prolly just to avoid using a "Spanish" letter. Anyway, let's not go
>> there.
>
> I think you're probably right there. After all, they certainly have ñ
> on their keyboards.

I may be wrong about that. The keyboard illustrated at
https://kapde.blogspot.com/2006/01/teclat-andorr.html has no ñ as such,
but it has ~ as a dead key.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 2024-04-27 13:20:21 +0000, Athel Cornish-Bowden said:

> On 2024-04-27 08:48:26 +0000, Athel Cornish-Bowden said:
>
>> On 2024-04-27 08:23:52 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:
>>
>>> El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 08:30:48 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>>>
>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> When I was first using email my Spanish-speaking correspondents ignored
>>>>> accents (á etc.), ¡ and ¿, but the one they couldn't ignore was ñ,
>>>>> variously rendered as ni, ny, gn, but never as nn (which seemed the
>>>>> most logical to me).
>>>>
>>>> In Catalonia they write "ny".
>>>>
>>>> https://www.roughguides.com/spain/catalunya/
>>>
>>>
>>> Heh. Prolly just to avoid using a "Spanish" letter. Anyway, let's not go
>>> there.
>>
>> I think you're probably right there. After all, they certainly have ñ
>> on their keyboards.
>
> I may be wrong about that. The keyboard illustrated at
> https://kapde.blogspot.com/2006/01/teclat-andorr.html has no ñ as such,
> but it has ~ as a dead key.

Once when İ was ın İstanbul I wanted to send an email to my wıfe usıng
a computer with a Turkısh keyboard. I wanted undotted I (not İ) but
dotted i (not ı), but İ found ıt almost ımpossıble to get ıt rıght. The
problem ıs that I and i are on dıfferent keys.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 15:20:21 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:

> On 2024-04-27 08:48:26 +0000, Athel Cornish-Bowden said:

>> I think you're probably right there. After all, they certainly have ñ
>> on their keyboards.
>
> I may be wrong about that. The keyboard illustrated at
> https://kapde.blogspot.com/2006/01/teclat-andorr.html has no ñ as such,
> but it has ~ as a dead key.

It's available on English kbs as well. Used in programming a lot. I don't
know if you can make a ñ with it though. We used to call the squiggle a
tilde. Which was difficult to shake off when I came here, as a "tilde" is
any accent mark.

Having said that, it seems that it also may have the other meaning here
as well (and macron, by the look):

tilde:

nombre femenino
acento (‖ signo ortográfico español). Era usado también como masculino.
"Raúl se escribe con tilde en la u."

2.
nombre femenino
Signo en forma de rayita, a veces ondulada, que forma parte de algunas
letras, como la ñ, y que antiguamente se usaba en algunas abreviaturas.
Era usado también como masculino.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

Paul Carmichael wrote:

>> I may be wrong about that. The keyboard illustrated at
>> https://kapde.blogspot.com/2006/01/teclat-andorr.html has no ñ as such,
>> but it has ~ as a dead key.
>
> It's available on English kbs as well.

And on Danish ones, and it can make the ñ. If I want a tilde, I have to
use [space].

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

On 27/04/24 23:46, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> Once when İ was ın İstanbul I wanted to send an email to my wıfe
> usıng a computer with a Turkısh keyboard. I wanted undotted I (not İ)
> but dotted i (not ı), but İ found ıt almost ımpossıble to get ıt
> rıght. The problem ıs that I and i are on dıfferent keys.

In my on-line Irish lessons, I have to use a mouse click to get an
accented character. It's a real pain. For some reason, my attempts to
write an accented character with the keyboard are failing.

I've written a "vocabulary practice" program that presents me with words
and asks for a translation. In that, I've taken an approach that I
believe is better than the dead key system. To get a fada (acute accent)
over a vowel, I just type an apostrophe after the vowel.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 28/04/24 00:27, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 15:20:21 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:
>
>> On 2024-04-27 08:48:26 +0000, Athel Cornish-Bowden said:
>
>>> I think you're probably right there. After all, they certainly have ñ
>>> on their keyboards.
>>
>> I may be wrong about that. The keyboard illustrated at
>> https://kapde.blogspot.com/2006/01/teclat-andorr.html has no ñ as such,
>> but it has ~ as a dead key.
>
>
> It's available on English kbs as well. Used in programming a lot. I don't
> know if you can make a ñ with it though. We used to call the squiggle a
> tilde. Which was difficult to shake off when I came here, as a "tilde" is
> any accent mark.
>
> Having said that, it seems that it also may have the other meaning here
> as well (and macron, by the look):
>
> tilde:
>
> nombre femenino
> acento (‖ signo ortográfico español). Era usado también como masculino.
> "Raúl se escribe con tilde en la u."
>
> 2.
> nombre femenino
> Signo en forma de rayita, a veces ondulada, que forma parte de algunas
> letras, como la ñ, y que antiguamente se usaba en algunas abreviaturas.
> Era usado también como masculino.

In my English, and I suspect in everyone's English, tilde can only have
that second meaning.

Of course, we Australians also use it in "Waltzing my ~".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 28/04/2024 at 03:13, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 27/04/24 23:46, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> Once when İ was ın İstanbul I wanted to send an email to my wıfe
>> usıng a computer with a Turkısh keyboard. I wanted undotted I (not İ)
>> but dotted i (not ı), but İ found ıt almost ımpossıble to get ıt
>> rıght. The problem ıs that I and i are on dıfferent keys.
>
> In my on-line Irish lessons, I have to use a mouse click to get an
> accented character. It's a real pain. For some reason, my attempts to
> write an accented character with the keyboard are failing.
>
> I've written a "vocabulary practice" program that presents me with words
> and asks for a translation. In that, I've taken an approach that I
> believe is better than the dead key system. To get a fada (acute accent)
> over a vowel, I just type an apostrophe after the vowel.
>

AX character cycling https://vulpeculox.net/ax/ has a section for Irish

--
Chris Elvidge, England
NOBODY LIKES SUNBURN SLAPPERS

On 28/04/24 20:56, Chris Elvidge wrote:
> On 28/04/2024 at 03:13, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 27/04/24 23:46, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>
>>> Once when İ was ın İstanbul I wanted to send an email to my wıfe
>>> usıng a computer with a Turkısh keyboard. I wanted undotted I
>>> (not İ) but dotted i (not ı), but İ found ıt almost ımpossıble to
>>> get ıt rıght. The problem ıs that I and i are on dıfferent keys.
>>
>> In my on-line Irish lessons, I have to use a mouse click to get an
>> accented character. It's a real pain. For some reason, my attempts
>> to write an accented character with the keyboard are failing.
>>
>> I've written a "vocabulary practice" program that presents me with
>> words and asks for a translation. In that, I've taken an approach
>> that I believe is better than the dead key system. To get a fada
>> (acute accent) over a vowel, I just type an apostrophe after the
>> vowel.
>
> AX character cycling https://vulpeculox.net/ax/ has a section for
> Irish

Thanks. I'll give it a try. I see that it took the same approach I did,
of typing the accent _after_ the letter. A problem with dead keys is
that you have to compose a character in a non-intuitive order.

I suspect, though, that Duolingo has its own quirky input handling that
doesn't use the usual character codes. The last time I tried typing with
the keyboard I typed an é, and the program seemed to think it was an
unknown character. I should try again, though.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan wrote:

> Thanks. I'll give it a try. I see that it took the same approach I did,
> of typing the accent _after_ the letter. A problem with dead keys is
> that you have to compose a character in a non-intuitive order.

For me it's a question of habit. And one might see the order going from
top to bottom, but I am not really concerned about order.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Ar an t-ochtú lá is fiche de mí Aibreán, scríobh Peter Moylan:

> [...] I suspect, though, that Duolingo has its own quirky input handling
> that doesn't use the usual character codes. The last time I tried typing
> with the keyboard I typed an é, and the program seemed to think it was an
> unknown character. I should try again, though.

On Linux and Windows, I have no problems with character input in Duolingo. What
operating system do you use, and what keyboard layout?

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 21:15:08 +1000
> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On 26/04/24 18:22, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > > On 2024-04-26 08:05:02 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:
> > >
> > >> Paul Carmichael wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>> The other word ROT'ed is:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> bhgeb
> > >>>
> > >>> Do people still use rot13?
> > >>
> > >> Of course.
> > >>
> > >>> In this new world where even speakers of English acknowledge that
> > >>> English is not the only language in the world, surely it's not
> > >>> really a lot of use.
> > >>
> > >> It fulfills its purpose: to hide the text from people who don't
> > >> want to see it (yet).
> >
> > I see Paul's point, though. Rot13 can't handle accented characters, and
> > it certainly can't handle non-Latin scripts.
> >
> > >>> The newsreader that I use doesn't have the option to rot13
> > >>> stuff.
> > >>
> > >> Neither has mine, but I have written a small Python script to
> > >> handle it.
> > >
> > > Mine has it, with separate commands for Scramble and Unscramble. The
> > > programmer must have known that they do exactly the same thing, but
> > > perhaps some users don't.
> >
> > On Thunderbird I use an add-on handling several codes. There are
> > separate Encode and Decode menus, which means that rot13 appears twice,
> > but that makes sense for symmetry. The other codes that are handled are
> > Base64, UUEncode, URI encoders (I haven't checked what those do), Unicode
> > to numeric (several bases), Kenny, Morse, Leet, Reverse, Upper case,
> > Lower case.
> >
> > I don't know what Kenny does.
>
> Kenny speaks like this:
>
> Mfpmff Fmpmfpmpppffmpp!
>

This useful, it encodes and decodes many things, including Kenny:

<https://www.dcode.fr/en>

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.