Which one would you use, and why?

1. innocent until proved guilty

2. innocent until proven guilty

Which was the original usage?

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Le 27/04/2024 à 12:14, Steve Hayes a écrit :
>
> Which one would you use, and why?
>
> 1. innocent until proved guilty
>
> 2. innocent until proven guilty

'Proven' - it slips more easily off the tongue. I think I'd also favour
'till'.

> Which was the original usage?

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=innocent+until+proven+guilty%2Cinnocent+until+proved+guilty%2Cinnocent+till+proven+guilty&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3>

Steve Hayes wrote:

> Which one would you use, and why?
>
> 1. innocent until proved guilty
>
> 2. innocent until proven guilty

2. with no doubt.

Why? 1. is impossible. I suppose that 2. is what I have met before.

It may play a role that we in Danish also have an n-form of the past
participle of some verbs, and that form is often used in idiomatic
expressions. In some cases the standard form even has another meaning.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:14:12 +0200, Steve Hayes escribió:

> Which one would you use, and why?
>
> 1. innocent until proved guilty
>
> 2. innocent until proven guilty
>
>
> Which was the original usage?

1 is the only one normally heard (it's a set phrase), but I don't see
anything wrong with 1.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

On 2024-04-27 14:20:24 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:

> El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:14:12 +0200, Steve Hayes escribió:
>
>> Which one would you use, and why?
>>
>> 1. innocent until proved guilty
>>
>> 2. innocent until proven guilty
>>
>>
>> Which was the original usage?
>
>
> 1 is the only one normally heard (it's a set phrase), but I don't see
> anything wrong with 1.

In my (British) experience the word "proven" occurs only in the
Scottish court decision of "not proven". However, the ngram seems to
confirm my impression that it occurs a little bit more often in
American English.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 17:56:53 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<me@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2024-04-27 14:20:24 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:
>
>> El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:14:12 +0200, Steve Hayes escribió:
>>
>>> Which one would you use, and why?
>>>
>>> 1. innocent until proved guilty
>>>
>>> 2. innocent until proven guilty
>>>
>>>
>>> Which was the original usage?
>>
>>
>> 1 is the only one normally heard (it's a set phrase), but I don't see
>> anything wrong with 1.
>
>In my (British) experience the word "proven" occurs only in the
>Scottish court decision of "not proven". However, the ngram seems to
>confirm my impression that it occurs a little bit more often in
>American English.

Ngrams - I was surprised that neither was very frequent
early on, but the edge goes to "proved".

It was 1965 before "proven" shows increasing prevalence
in the AmE corpus, about 5 years before a similar increase
in BrE. Both phrases are used more than they used to be.

There was a peak for "proved" in 1949 -- I wonder if that
was from coverage of war trials.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=innocent+until+proved+guilty%2Cinnocent+until+proven+guilty&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=0

--
Rich Ulrich

Rich Ulrich wrote:

> Ngrams - I was surprised that neither was very frequent
> early on, but the edge goes to "proved".
>
> It was 1965 before "proven" shows increasing prevalence
> in the AmE corpus, about 5 years before a similar increase
> in BrE. Both phrases are used more than they used to be.
>
> There was a peak for "proved" in 1949 -- I wonder if that
> was from coverage of war trials.

An Ngram with "proved beyond,proven beyond" shows that "proved" is twice
as common as "proven" which only kicks in after 1830.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Hibou to Anton Shepelev:

> > Which one would you use, and why?
> >
> > 1. innocent until proved guilty
> > 2. innocent until proven guilty
>
> 'Proven' - it slips more easily off the tongue.

It is also /the/ grammrical variant, because `proven' above
is not a verb.

> I think I'd also favour 'till'.

Probably, whereas in "Innocent until caught," `until' is
definitely better, and also a fun game:

<https://www.myabandonware.com/game/innocent-until-caught-1zi>

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 17:56:53 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<me@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2024-04-27 14:20:24 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:
>
>> El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:14:12 +0200, Steve Hayes escribió:
>>
>>> Which one would you use, and why?
>>>
>>> 1. innocent until proved guilty
>>>
>>> 2. innocent until proven guilty
>>>
>>>
>>> Which was the original usage?
>>
>>
>> 1 is the only one normally heard (it's a set phrase), but I don't see
>> anything wrong with 1.
>
>In my (British) experience the word "proven" occurs only in the
>Scottish court decision of "not proven". However, the ngram seems to
>confirm my impression that it occurs a little bit more often in
>American English.

And that's what Fowler (as revised by Gowers) says.

Perhaps I should also have asked whether people pronounce "proven" as
"proven" or "prooven".

I pronounce it "proven", but don't normally use it except in the case
of "not proven", and for me the normal past tense of "prove" is
"proved", but I get the impression that it is rapidly being replaced
by "proven".

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 10:31:26 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

>Rich Ulrich wrote:
>
>> Ngrams - I was surprised that neither was very frequent
>> early on, but the edge goes to "proved".
>>
>> It was 1965 before "proven" shows increasing prevalence
>> in the AmE corpus, about 5 years before a similar increase
>> in BrE. Both phrases are used more than they used to be.
>>
>> There was a peak for "proved" in 1949 -- I wonder if that
>> was from coverage of war trials.
>
>An Ngram with "proved beyond,proven beyond" shows that "proved" is twice
>as common as "proven" which only kicks in after 1830.

Nice choice. (I wonder, though - Coult it be counting
boilerplate announcements from the court systems?)

Early on, "proved" is almost alone.

In BrE, it stays much stronger above "proven" than
in AmE. The ratio falls off in AmE to 1.5 or so for recent
years, but remains above 3 or 4 in BrE

--
Rich Ulrich

Steve Hayes wrote:

> Perhaps I should also have asked whether people pronounce "proven" as
> "proven" or "prooven".

I have the same vowel in "prove" and "proved/n".

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

El Mon, 29 Apr 2024 01:42:36 -0400, Rich Ulrich escribió:

> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 10:31:26 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
>>Rich Ulrich wrote:
>>
>>> Ngrams - I was surprised that neither was very frequent early on, but
>>> the edge goes to "proved".
>>>
>>> It was 1965 before "proven" shows increasing prevalence in the AmE
>>> corpus, about 5 years before a similar increase in BrE. Both phrases
>>> are used more than they used to be.
>>>
>>> There was a peak for "proved" in 1949 -- I wonder if that was from
>>> coverage of war trials.
>>
>>An Ngram with "proved beyond,proven beyond" shows that "proved" is twice
>>as common as "proven" which only kicks in after 1830.
>
> Nice choice. (I wonder, though - Coult it be counting boilerplate
> announcements from the court systems?)
>
> Early on, "proved" is almost alone.
>
> In BrE, it stays much stronger above "proven" than in AmE. The ratio
> falls off in AmE to 1.5 or so for recent years, but remains above 3 or 4
> in BrE

I've never heard the set phrase "innocent until proven guilty" any other
way. I am quite young though (62), so probably been influenced by a lot
of AmE telly.

That said, it's probably the only time I've heard it. I personally would
use "proved" everywhere else. Especially when I go to see if my dough has
proved before I bake it.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote or quoted:
>Nice choice. (I wonder, though - Coult it be counting
>boilerplate announcements from the court systems?)

My corpus is much smaller than Google's, but here's what I was
able to find in it:

|s, they have proved beyond contradicti - Swift IR 1667/1745
|bugbear, was proved beyond the possibi - Scott SC 1771/1832
|gation, were proved beyond their great - Austen BR 1775/1817
|in which she proved beyond a doubt tha - Bronte BR 1816/1855
|bation of it proved beyond a doubt, by - Bronte BR 1816/1855
| It has been proven beyond a doubt, pe - textbook ?? contemporary
| That is now proven beyond any doubt. - TV show ?? contemporary

.

Steve Hayes wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 17:56:53 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>On 2024-04-27 14:20:24 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:
>>
>>> El Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:14:12 +0200, Steve Hayes escribió:
>>>
>>>> Which one would you use, and why?
>>>>
>>>> 1. innocent until proved guilty
>>>>
>>>> 2. innocent until proven guilty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which was the original usage?
>>>
>>>
>>> 1 is the only one normally heard (it's a set phrase), but I don't see
>>> anything wrong with 1.
>>
>>In my (British) experience the word "proven" occurs only in the
>>Scottish court decision of "not proven". However, the ngram seems to
>>confirm my impression that it occurs a little bit more often in
>>American English.

> And that's what Fowler (as revised by Gowers) says.

> Perhaps I should also have asked whether people pronounce "proven" as
> "proven" or "prooven".

What do you mean by "proven"--first vowel as in "oven", "over", or
"sovereign"?

I use the GOOSE vowel in "prove", "proven", and "proof".

> I pronounce it "proven", but don't normally use it except in the case
> of "not proven", and for me the normal past tense of "prove" is
> "proved", but I get the impression that it is rapidly being replaced
> by "proven".

You mean "past participle"?

I think I mostly use "proved" after "have" etc. and "proven" when it's
an adjective.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 29 Apr 2024 12:15:08 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
wrote:

>Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote or quoted:
>>Nice choice. (I wonder, though - Coult it be counting
>>boilerplate announcements from the court systems?)
>
> My corpus is much smaller than Google's, but here's what I was
> able to find in it:
>
>|s, they have proved beyond contradicti - Swift IR 1667/1745
>|bugbear, was proved beyond the possibi - Scott SC 1771/1832
>|gation, were proved beyond their great - Austen BR 1775/1817
>|in which she proved beyond a doubt tha - Bronte BR 1816/1855
- simple past tense

>|bation of it proved beyond a doubt, by - Bronte BR 1816/1855
- simple past tense

>| It has been proven beyond a doubt, pe - textbook ?? contemporary
>| That is now proven beyond any doubt. - TV show ?? contemporary

That's a complication for the comparisons.
The simple past tense is never "proven".

I don't know if Google-ngrams can make a distinction by tense.

--
Rich Ulrich

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:
>My corpus is much smaller than Google's, but here's what I was
>able to find in it:

I got a few posts from that newsgroup stashed away,
so I dug through them to see what was what.

"proved" (4 hits)

|their crimes but are also proved beyond the shadow of a doubt to have
CyberCypher on 2005-03-31 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: Hypocrisy unmasked

|But that doesn't mean it can be proved beyond all doubt, or that the
Larry G on 2005-07-07 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: 8 Days Inn [WAS: Daniel McGrath requests help with posting
problem]
|every element of the crime has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
Robert Lieblich on 2008-08-14 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: double jeopardy

|I have proved beyond reasonable doubt that the combinations "tiny wee"
Arne H. Wilstrup on 2009-02-03 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: Sloppy - a return to a trifle.

"proven" (3 hits)

|evidence that would have proven beyond doubt that he is innocent
Juanita on 2006-10-21 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: A case of corruption that has had and continues to have
horrendous ramifications

|proof on the state: the case has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
Fred Springer on 2008-08-09 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: double jeopardy

|the charge hasn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
tony cooper on 2011-07-15 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: In pursuit of a venue

I'm not totally sure why there have been fewer hits since 2012,
maybe there's a gap in my dataset or a bug in my code.

On 29 Apr 2024 15:48:06 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
wrote:

>
> I got a few posts from that newsgroup stashed away,
> so I dug through them to see what was what.
>
> "proved" (4 hits)
>
<snip details>
>
> "proven" (3 hits)
>

Inspired by you, I searched what I have in the messages
I've saved in aue -- mostly, me quioting other people when I
replied -- going back a dozen years.

Subtracting off the current thread, Forte Agent gives me.
For proven: 40 messages, in 25 threads.
For proved: 46 messages, in 28 threads.

There is less superiority for "proved" than ngrams found.
I didn't read to check how they were used, participle vs simple
past tense.

--
Rich Ulrich

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote or quoted:
>Subtracting off the current thread, Forte Agent gives me.
>For proven: 40 messages, in 25 threads.
>For proved: 46 messages, in 28 threads.

"If everything else fails, look into a dictionary."

|The past participle "proven", originally Scots and the usual
|form in Scottish English, developed from the β forms by
|analogy with strong verbs like "cloven", past participle of
|"cleave" v.1, "woven", past participle of "weave" v.1 It is
|at least as common as "proved" in current North American
|English. It is also spreading into other varieties of
|English, in which the highest proportion of occurrences
|appears to occur in the past and perfect passive. Compare
|"proven" adj., "proved" adj.
. . .
|2. II. To demonstrate, establish. 1. II.4. To establish as
|true; to make certain; to demonstrate the truth of by
|evidence or argument. In this sense the past participle
|"proven" (originally Scottish) is often used. In Scots Law the
|verdict "Not proven" is admitted, besides "Guilty" and "Not
|guilty", in criminal trials.
. . .
|c1450 (c1380) "Whoso seyth of trouthe I varye, Bid hym
|proven the contrarye." - G. Chaucer, House of Fame 807
. . .
|1633 "When a number serveth not necessitie, all are proven
|to be weak." - W. Struther, True Happines 8
. . .
|1931 "How little he understood the will of the American
|people is proven by their unyielding demand for this
|service." - C. Kelly, United States Postal Policy iv. 81
. . .

On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 12:53:35 +0000, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
(jerryfriedman) wrote:

>Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> Perhaps I should also have asked whether people pronounce "proven" as
>> "proven" or "prooven".
>
>What do you mean by "proven"--first vowel as in "oven", "over", or
>"sovereign"?

I pronounce it as in "over".

>
>I use the GOOSE vowel in "prove", "proven", and "proof".
>
>> I pronounce it "proven", but don't normally use it except in the case
>> of "not proven", and for me the normal past tense of "prove" is
>> "proved", but I get the impression that it is rapidly being replaced
>> by "proven".
>
>You mean "past participle"?
>
>I think I mostly use "proved" after "have" etc. and "proven" when it's
>an adjective.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Steve Hayes wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 12:53:35 +0000, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
> (jerryfriedman) wrote:

>>Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps I should also have asked whether people pronounce "proven" as
>>> "proven" or "prooven".
>>
>>What do you mean by "proven"--first vowel as in "oven", "over", or
>>"sovereign"?

> I pronounce it as in "over".

Ah, I don't think I've ever heard that.
>>
>>I use the GOOSE vowel in "prove", "proven", and "proof".

...

--
Jerry Fredman

jerryfriedman explained on 5/4/2024 :
> Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 12:53:35 +0000, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
>> (jerryfriedman) wrote:
>
>>>Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>
>>>> Perhaps I should also have asked whether people pronounce "proven" as
>>>> "proven" or "prooven".
>>>
>>>What do you mean by "proven"--first vowel as in "oven", "over", or
>>>"sovereign"?
>
>> I pronounce it as in "over".
>
> Ah, I don't think I've ever heard that.

I haven't either, even when watching film noir.

>>>
>>>I use the GOOSE vowel in "prove", "proven", and "proof".
>
> ..

We cod drift to prod, and then onto PROduction vs prodUCTION.

/dps

--
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