Following up on the "plurals" thread (memoranda/capuccini/etc), I came
across the spelling of the plural "plateaux", and realised it's been
quite a while since I've seen that one in print.

Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").

I'd have thought that if you're going to use the imported spelling
"plateaux", the pronunciation should also be imported (silent "x").

--
Cheers, Harvey

HVS wrote:

> I'd have thought that if you're going to use the imported spelling
> "plateaux", the pronunciation should also be imported (silent "x").

Of course. Pronouncing it is a faux pas.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

On 26 Apr 2024, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote

> HVS wrote:
>
>> I'd have thought that if you're going to use the imported spelling
>> "plateaux", the pronunciation should also be imported (silent "x").
>
> Of course. Pronouncing it is a faux pas.

(smile)

I agree entirely, so I was surprised that not only do reputable English
dictionaries accessible online say otherwise -- Collins, M-W,
Britannica, Oxford Advanced -- they don't even give the French
pronunciation as an alternative.

Remember when HVS bragged outrageously? That was Friday:
> Following up on the "plurals" thread (memoranda/capuccini/etc), I came
> across the spelling of the plural "plateaux", and realised it's been
> quite a while since I've seen that one in print.
>
> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
> I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
> plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
> for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").
>
> I'd have thought that if you're going to use the imported spelling
> "plateaux", the pronunciation should also be imported (silent "x").

But the 'x' is pronounced as 'z' (zh, not dz) to match the 's'
spelling, whereas I'd expect a pronounced-'x' to be 'ks' (something
like "loax").

/dps

--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

HVS wrote:

> Following up on the "plurals" thread (memoranda/capuccini/etc), I came
> across the spelling of the plural "plateaux", and realised it's been
> quite a while since I've seen that one in print.

> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
> I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
> plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
> for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").

> I'd have thought that if you're going to use the imported spelling
> "plateaux", the pronunciation should also be imported (silent "x").

You naturally add a /z/ to the pronunciation to make it plural, so
that's how you pronounce the plural even if you spell it with an x.
For a more common word of the 18th and 19th centuries,

"But soon mischance upon mischance arose,
Quite disconcerting the rejoicing beaux."

--Samuel Bentley (of Uttoxeter), "The Bowling-Green", 1774

https://books.google.com/books?id=axAUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA147

"Though as a general rule we know
Two strings go to every bow,
Make up your minds that grief ‘twill bring
If you’ve two beaux to every string."

--W. S. Gilbert, /Iolanthe/, 1882

https://www.gsarchive.net/iolanthe/web_op/iol25.html

--
Jerry Friedman

On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
> I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
> plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
> for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").

Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in plateaux.)

On 28/04/24 02:21, occam wrote:
> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:

>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
>> I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
>> plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
>> for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").
>
> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in plateaux.)

I've heard it pronounced in Faux News.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

occam wrote:

> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
>> I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
>> plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
>> for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").

> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in plateaux.)

Have you heard anyone say "plateaux" in English?

--
Jerry Friedman

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> writes:

> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
>
>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
>> I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
>> plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
>> for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").
>
> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in plateaux.)

By that standard, Beaux Arts would be chiefly abour Joseph Cornell.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

On 28/04/24 14:02, jerryfriedman wrote:
> occam wrote:
>> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:

>>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly
>>> interesting), I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and
>>> "plateaux" as the plural forms in English (no problem), but with
>>> identical pronunciation for both spellings (fully anglicised,
>>> pronouncing the "x").
>
>> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in
>> plateaux.)
>
> Have you heard anyone say "plateaux" in English?

I've said "de l'eau plate" [1]. Oh, wait, that wasn't in English.

[1] It's not unusual, in a French restaurant, to be asked whether you
want your water flat [2,3] or gaseous.

[2] How did I know that water is feminine? There's something interesting
going on here. When I first started to learn French, a major difficulty
was that all nouns have gender. Now that I've reached a reasonable level
of fluency, I find that I pick the right gender instinctively. What used
to be a big problem is now no big deal. What was the fuss about?

(But I'm still struggling with gender in Irish. I've finally figured out
that cailín=girl is masculine.)

[3] OK, I've now looked it up. Apparently French "plateau" is derived
from plat = flat, but not from flat water.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

> HVS wrote:

>> I'd have thought that if you're going to use the imported spelling
>> "plateaux", the pronunciation should also be imported (silent "x").

> Of course. Pronouncing it is a faux pas.

Not to mention pronouncing it in "grand prix".

On 28/04/24 16:02, Bebercito wrote:
> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>
>> HVS wrote:
>
>>> I'd have thought that if you're going to use the imported spelling
>>> "plateaux", the pronunciation should also be imported (silent "x").
>
>> Of course. Pronouncing it is a faux pas.
>
> Not to mention pronouncing it in "grand prix".

I remember a friend telling me that he'd seen a movie called "Grand Pricks".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 28/04/2024 04:18, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 28/04/24 02:21, occam wrote:
>> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
>
>>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
>>> I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
>>> plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
>>> for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").
>>
>> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in
>> plateaux.)
>
> I've heard it pronounced in Faux News.
>

How about in motor racing - Grand Prix ?

On 28/04/2024 06:02, jerryfriedman wrote:
> occam wrote:
>
>> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
>>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly
>>> interesting), I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and
>>> "plateaux" as the plural forms in English (no problem), but with
>>> identical pronunciation for both spellings (fully anglicised,
>>> pronouncing the "x").
>
>> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in
>> plateaux.)
>
> Have you heard anyone say "plateaux" in English?
>

Yes, I had an English teacher of Geography. I would have noticed.

On 28/04/2024 07:22, Mike Spencer wrote:
> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> writes:
>
>> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
>>
>>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
>>> I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
>>> plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
>>> for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").
>>
>> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in plateaux.)
>
> By that standard, Beaux Arts would be chiefly abour Joseph Cornell.
>

This reminds me of a piece of toilet graffiti at university. Someone had
drawn three cubes (boxes) on the cubicle door. Below, the title read
"Balls, by Picasso". In a different handwriting, someone had scribbled
"balls, to Picasso".

On 2024-04-28 06:38:09 +0000, occam said:

> On 28/04/2024 06:02, jerryfriedman wrote:
>> occam wrote:
>>
>>> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
>>>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly
>>>> interesting), I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and
>>>> "plateaux" as the plural forms in English (no problem), but with
>>>> identical pronunciation for both spellings (fully anglicised,
>>>> pronouncing the "x").
>>
>>> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in
>>> plateaux.)
>>
>> Have you heard anyone say "plateaux" in English?
>>
>
> Yes, I had an English teacher of Geography. I would have noticed.

That's like PTD's argument that all the sources that agree that they
drive on the left in the American Virgin Islands were wrong. He went
there as a little lad of seven and he would have noticed if they drove
on the left.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 2024-04-28 06:15:32 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 28/04/24 16:02, Bebercito wrote:
>> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>
>>> HVS wrote:
>>
>>>> I'd have thought that if you're going to use the imported spelling
>>>> "plateaux", the pronunciation should also be imported (silent "x").
>>
>>> Of course. Pronouncing it is a faux pas.
>>
>> Not to mention pronouncing it in "grand prix".
>
> I remember a friend telling me that he'd seen a movie called "Grand Pricks".

What about scrota? Normally one has no need of a plural, so the
question doesn't arise. However, the other day I wanted to comment in
another group that bull elephants keep their testicles inside the body
and have no mechanism for keeping them cool, but they still manage to
reproduce. I wrote "scrotums", as "scrota" seemed pretentious.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 28/04/2024 10:29, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-04-28 06:38:09 +0000, occam said:
>
>> On 28/04/2024 06:02, jerryfriedman wrote:
>>> occam wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
>>>>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly
>>>>> interesting), I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and
>>>>> "plateaux" as the plural forms in English (no problem), but with
>>>>> identical pronunciation for both spellings (fully anglicised,
>>>>> pronouncing the "x").
>>>
>>>> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in
>>>> plateaux.)
>>>
>>> Have you heard anyone say "plateaux" in English?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I had an English teacher of Geography. I would have noticed.
>
> That's like PTD's argument that all the sources that agree that they
> drive on the left in the American Virgin Islands were wrong. He went
> there as a little lad of seven and he would have noticed if they drove
> on the left.
>

OK, let me increase my sample data by one. In your experience, do Brits
pronounce the 'X' in 'plateaux'?

On 2024-04-28 10:05:23 +0000, occam said:

> On 28/04/2024 10:29, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2024-04-28 06:38:09 +0000, occam said:
>>
>>> On 28/04/2024 06:02, jerryfriedman wrote:
>>>> occam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
>>>>>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly
>>>>>> interesting), I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and
>>>>>> "plateaux" as the plural forms in English (no problem), but with
>>>>>> identical pronunciation for both spellings (fully anglicised,
>>>>>> pronouncing the "x").
>>>>
>>>>> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in
>>>>> plateaux.)
>>>>
>>>> Have you heard anyone say "plateaux" in English?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I had an English teacher of Geography. I would have noticed.
>>
>> That's like PTD's argument that all the sources that agree that they
>> drive on the left in the American Virgin Islands were wrong. He went
>> there as a little lad of seven and he would have noticed if they drove
>> on the left.
>>
>
> OK, let me increase my sample data by one. In your experience, do Brits
> pronounce the 'X' in 'plateaux'?

I do. I pronounce it with /z/, not with /ks/

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Le 26/04/2024 à 14:24, HVS a écrit :
>
> Following up on the "plurals" thread (memoranda/capuccini/etc), I came
> across the spelling of the plural "plateaux", and realised it's been
> quite a while since I've seen that one in print.
>
> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
> I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
> plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
> for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").
>
> I'd have thought that if you're going to use the imported spelling
> "plateaux", the pronunciation should also be imported (silent "x").

I've come across this problem with 'châteaux'. On the whole, I think it
better in English to write 'châteaus' and pronounce the s; its absence
sounds odd. So 'plateaus', then.

I'm currently reading 'Ashenden', and find the repeated mentions of
'Lyons' trip the eye (though not so much as to conjure up nippies). Lyon
to me is a singular town. There's 'Marseille' and 'Marseilles' as well,
of course. C'est dur, la vie.

On 28/04/2024 07:15, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 28/04/24 16:02, Bebercito wrote:
>> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>
>>> HVS wrote:
>>
>>>> I'd have thought that if you're going to use the imported spelling
>>>> "plateaux", the pronunciation should also be imported (silent "x").
>>
>>> Of course. Pronouncing it is a faux pas.
>>
>> Not to mention pronouncing it in "grand prix".
>
> I remember a friend telling me that he'd seen a movie called "Grand
> Pricks".
>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9ZOiHlqssU&t=19m09s

--
Ray
UK

On 28/04/2024 at 11:42, Hibou wrote:
> Le 26/04/2024 à 14:24, HVS a écrit :
>>
>> Following up on the "plurals" thread (memoranda/capuccini/etc), I came
>> across the spelling of the plural "plateaux", and realised it's been
>> quite a while since I've seen that one in print.
>>
>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
>> I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
>> plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
>> for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").
>>
>> I'd have thought that if you're going to use the imported spelling
>> "plateaux", the pronunciation should also be imported (silent "x").
>
> I've come across this problem with 'châteaux'. On the whole, I think it
> better in English to write 'châteaus' and pronounce the s; its absence
> sounds odd. So 'plateaus', then.
>
>
> I'm currently reading 'Ashenden', and find the repeated mentions of
> 'Lyons' trip the eye (though not so much as to conjure up nippies). Lyon
> to me is a singular town. There's 'Marseille' and 'Marseilles' as well,
> of course. C'est dur, la vie.
>

Lyons made ice-cream (back in the day)

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT DEFAME NEW ORLEANS

Mike Spencer wrote:

> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> writes:

>> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
>>
>>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly interesting),
>>> I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and "plateaux" as the
>>> plural forms in English (no problem), but with identical pronunciation
>>> for both spellings (fully anglicised, pronouncing the "x").
>>
>> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in plateaux.)

> By that standard, Beaux Arts would be chiefly abour Joseph Cornell.

So not the manly art of self-defense?

--
Jerry Friedman

occam wrote:

> On 28/04/2024 06:02, jerryfriedman wrote:
>> occam wrote:
>>
>>> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
>>>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly
>>>> interesting), I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and
>>>> "plateaux" as the plural forms in English (no problem), but with
>>>> identical pronunciation for both spellings (fully anglicised,
>>>> pronouncing the "x").
>>
>>> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in
>>> plateaux.)
>>
>> Have you heard anyone say "plateaux" in English?
>>

> Yes, I had an English teacher of Geography. I would have noticed.

How do you know your teacher wasn't saying "plateaus"? Did he or
she pronounce it the same as "plateau"?

I hope it's clear that Harvey meant "identical pronunciations for
both spellings", as he said. If you pronounce the x in "plateaux",
the word rhymes with "foes", not with "folks".

--
Jerry Friedman

On Sun, 28 Apr 2024, at 12:31:01, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
>On 2024-04-28 10:05:23 +0000, occam said:
>
>> On 28/04/2024 10:29, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-28 06:38:09 +0000, occam said:
>>>
>>>> On 28/04/2024 06:02, jerryfriedman wrote:
>>>>> occam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 26/04/2024 15:24, HVS wrote:
>>>>>>> Exploring a bit on the frequency of use (not particularly
>>>>>>> interesting), I noticed that Collins and M-W give "plateaus" and
>>>>>>> "plateaux" as the plural forms in English (no problem), but with
>>>>>>> identical pronunciation for both spellings (fully anglicised,
>>>>>>> pronouncing the "x").
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bolleaux to that! (I've never heard anyone pronounce the 'x' in
>>>>>> plateaux.)
>>>>> Have you heard anyone say "plateaux" in English?
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, I had an English teacher of Geography. I would have noticed.
>>> That's like PTD's argument that all the sources that agree that
>>>they
>>> drive on the left in the American Virgin Islands were wrong. He went
>>> there as a little lad of seven and he would have noticed if they drove
>>> on the left.
>>>
>> OK, let me increase my sample data by one. In your experience, do
>>Brits
>> pronounce the 'X' in 'plateaux'?
>
>I do. I pronounce it with /z/, not with /ks/
>
Same here. So that's at least three.
--
Paul W