Garrett Wollman:
>>>> [Some people] may not know that backtick is inexplicably
>>>> called "GRAVE ACCENT" in the Unicode table.

Peter Moylan:
>> Backtick is a new one to me. Is that used anywhere?
Adam Funk:
> I'd use "backtick" if it's paired around something, e.g.,
>
> FILES=`ls some/path`

As far as I'm considered that's a "grave" (rhymes with "Slav"),
but the other name I've heard some people use is "backquote",
not "backtick".
--
Mark Brader | "You have seen this incident, based on sworn
Toronto | testimony. Can you prove that it didn't happen?"
msb@vex.net | -- Ed Wood, Plan 9 from Outer Space

On 2024-04-19 20:04, Sn!pe wrote:
> Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Hence the query: does anyone know of a suitable standard or
>>>> human-friendly ordering for punctuation symbols?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't these symbols have names? E.g. percent, exclamation, dollar...
>>> That would seem to be a simple way of alphabetizing them in an index.
>>> They wouldn't be all together, of course, but why would you need that?
>>>
>>
>> Some of them have more than one name in English.
>>
>> # hash, pound sign, octothorpe
>>
>> / slash, forward slash [which I find annoying]
>
> Also 'solidus', 'stroke', 'oblique'.
>
> Blame the BBC for the idiotic 'forward slash'
> (to distinguish it from 'backslash')

IBM [1]

>> . period, full stop, dot
>>
>> ! exclamation mark, bang
>
> Also 'pling'.

[1] acronym: (I Blame Microsoft)

--
I failed math so many times, I can't even count them.

Fri, 19 Apr 2024 23:12:44 +0200: Bertel Lund Hansen
<gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>>>It started when the company AOL handed out huge numbers of floppy disks
>>>which enabled beginners to sign up for a Usenet account. (And possibly
>>>other services; I don't know that part of the story.) All of a sudden
>>>lots of clueless newbies turned up in newsgroups, replying "Me too" to a
>>>lot of postings. As a result many of us started using "AOL" as an
>>>abbreviation for "Me too".
>>
>> Interesting. But strange. Never heard of this before,
>
>Do you know "ACK" with the same meaning, but another history?

The ASCII sign "acknowledged"? Roger.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Fri, 19 Apr 2024 15:06:10 -0600: lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> scribeva:

>On 2024-04-19 00:10, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 18 Apr 2024 15:24:09 -0600: lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> scribeva:
>>> To do that, O generally put a digit in front of the '_'.
>>
>> Shouldn't be necessary, given the right locale.
>
>Thanks Ruud!
>it also had the effect of listing the digits in the 'right' order.
>Previously they were listed in numeric value, considering all the digits
>of a number.
>
>My 'Linux buddy' likes the default, and did not tell me there was a
>choice. I shall admonish him gently.

I could get number to get sorted on numeric value by locale alone. But
it it did work using 'sort -n'.
Example: I ran and entered:
LC_ALL=C sort -n
123
14
1000450
a A
b B
..
, -
_ ctrl-d

and got:
, -
..
A B
_ a
b 14
123
1000450

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

The output of locale on my Linux system is:
LANG=en_US.UTF-8
LANGUAGE=
LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_NUMERIC=nl_NL.UTF-8
LC_TIME=nl_NL.UTF-8
LC_COLLATE=nl_NL.UTF-8
LC_MONETARY=nl_NL.UTF-8
LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_PAPER=nl_NL.UTF-8
LC_NAME=nl_NL.UTF-8
LC_ADDRESS=nl_NL.UTF-8
LC_TELEPHONE=nl_NL.UTF-8
LC_MEASUREMENT=nl_NL.UTF-8
LC_IDENTIFICATION=nl_NL.UTF-8
LC_ALL=

I think LC_COLLATE is what determines sort order.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Sn!pe wrote:

> Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:
...

>> Some of them have more than one name in English.
>>
>> # hash, pound sign, octothorpe
>>
>> / slash, forward slash [which I find annoying]

> Also 'solidus', 'stroke', 'oblique'.

> Blame the BBC for the idiotic 'forward slash'
> (to distinguish it from 'backslash')
...

I don't know the history, but I doubt the BBC is to blame for the
use of "forward slash" in the U.S.

I know two intelligent people, one in a fairly senior position
with my employer, who say they can't remember which slash is
forward. I'm inclined (sorry) to agree that if the two marks
were called "slash" and "backslash", fewer people would get
confused, but I don't know of any studies.

--
Jerry Friedman

jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> / slash, forward slash [which I find annoying]
>
> > Also 'solidus', 'stroke', 'oblique'.
>
> > Blame the BBC for the idiotic 'forward slash'
> > (to distinguish it from 'backslash')
> ..
>
> I don't know the history, but I doubt the BBC is to blame for the
> use of "forward slash" in the U.S.
>
> I know two intelligent people, one in a fairly senior position
> with my employer, who say they can't remember which slash is
> forward. I'm inclined (sorry) to agree that if the two marks
> were called "slash" and "backslash", fewer people would get
> confused, but I don't know of any studies.
>

A simple aide-memoire for such people: slash is the one
that is much easier for a right-handed person to write by hand.
Backslash is just plain boodly awkward (thank you, Micro$oft).

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon admires J. Alfred Prufrock.

On 20-Apr-24 14:41, Sn!pe wrote:
> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> / slash, forward slash [which I find annoying]
>>
>>> Also 'solidus', 'stroke', 'oblique'.
>>
>>> Blame the BBC for the idiotic 'forward slash'
>>> (to distinguish it from 'backslash')
>> ..
>>
>> I don't know the history, but I doubt the BBC is to blame for the
>> use of "forward slash" in the U.S.
>>
>> I know two intelligent people, one in a fairly senior position
>> with my employer, who say they can't remember which slash is
>> forward. I'm inclined (sorry) to agree that if the two marks
>> were called "slash" and "backslash", fewer people would get
>> confused, but I don't know of any studies.
>>
>
> A simple aide-memoire for such people: slash is the one
> that is much easier for a right-handed person to write by hand.

Blatant discrimination against left handers?

> Backslash is just plain boodly awkward (thank you, Micro$oft).

It's all a sinister plot.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 2024-04-20 12:51, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 20-Apr-24 14:41, Sn!pe wrote:
>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> / slash, forward slash [which I find annoying]
>>>
>>>> Also 'solidus', 'stroke', 'oblique'.
>>>
>>>> Blame the BBC for the idiotic 'forward slash'
>>>> (to distinguish it from 'backslash')
>>> ..
>>>
>>> I don't know the history, but I doubt the BBC is to blame for the
>>> use of "forward slash" in the U.S.
>>>
>>> I know two intelligent people, one in a fairly senior position
>>> with my employer, who say they can't remember which slash is
>>> forward.  I'm inclined (sorry) to agree that if the two marks
>>> were called "slash" and "backslash", fewer people would get
>>> confused, but I don't know of any studies.
>>>
>>
>> A simple aide-memoire for such people: slash is the one
>> that is much easier for a right-handed person to write by hand.
>
> Blatant discrimination against left handers?
>
>> Backslash is just plain boodly awkward (thank you, Micro$oft).
>
> It's all a sinister plot.

How very adroit of you.

--
“The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will
insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.”
—Terry Pratchett

Sam Plusnet wrote:

>> A simple aide-memoire for such people: slash is the one
>> that is much easier for a right-handed person to write by hand.
>
> Blatant discrimination against left handers?
>
>> Backslash is just plain boodly awkward (thank you, Micro$oft).
>
> It's all a sinister plot.

That iz quier a daring statement.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

On 20/04/24 15:46, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Fri, 19 Apr 2024 23:12:44 +0200: Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> scribeva:
>
>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>>>> It started when the company AOL handed out huge numbers of floppy disks
>>>> which enabled beginners to sign up for a Usenet account. (And possibly
>>>> other services; I don't know that part of the story.) All of a sudden
>>>> lots of clueless newbies turned up in newsgroups, replying "Me too" to a
>>>> lot of postings. As a result many of us started using "AOL" as an
>>>> abbreviation for "Me too".
>>>
>>> Interesting. But strange. Never heard of this before,
>>
>> Do you know "ACK" with the same meaning, but another history?
>
> The ASCII sign "acknowledged"? Roger.

I'm reasonably certain that ACK and NAK were used in comunications well
before ASCII was invented, but now I can't find proof.

Giving "ACK history" to Google results in pointers to the African Church
of Kenya and to Assumption College Kilmore.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 20/04/24 15:06, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2024-04-19 20:04, Sn!pe wrote:

>> Blame the BBC for the idiotic 'forward slash'
>> (to distinguish it from 'backslash')

Plus broadcasters in several other countries.

> IBM [1]
>
>>> . period, full stop, dot
>>>
>>> ! exclamation mark, bang
>>
>> Also 'pling'.
>
> [1] acronym: (I Blame Microsoft)

I was about to say the same. It was Microsoft who trained Windows users
to think that the name of '\' is "slash".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan wrote:

> I'm reasonably certain that ACK and NAK were used in comunications well
> before ASCII was invented, but now I can't find proof.

This article gives a hint of confirmation to your statement:

https://www.ascii-code.com/character/%E2%90%86

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

* Adam Funk <7pfbfkxnem.ln2@news.ducksburg.com> :
Wrote on Sat, 20 Apr 2024 01:44:55 +0100:

>
> I'd use "backtick" if it's paired around something, e.g.,
>
> FILES=`ls some/path`

pro: type it unshifted, con: non-nestable

> although my IDEs tell me to use
>
> FILES=$(ls some/path)
>
> instead (I can't remember why it's better); and "grave accent" or
> "accent grave" (depending on whether I'm speaking/writing in English
> or French) if it's going over a vowel.

On 21/04/24 16:01, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> I'm reasonably certain that ACK and NAK were used in comunications well
>> before ASCII was invented, but now I can't find proof.
>
> This article gives a hint of confirmation to your statement:
>
> https://www.ascii-code.com/character/%E2%90%86

Thanks. I was hoping to find dates for early ACK-using protocols, but it
looks as if that would take more effort than I'm willing to expend.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2024-04-21 05:19:02 +0000, lar3ryca said:

> On 2024-04-20 12:51, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 20-Apr-24 14:41, Sn!pe wrote:
>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> / slash, forward slash [which I find annoying]
>>>>
>>>>> Also 'solidus', 'stroke', 'oblique'.
>>>>
>>>>> Blame the BBC for the idiotic 'forward slash'
>>>>> (to distinguish it from 'backslash')
>>>> ..
>>>>
>>>> I don't know the history, but I doubt the BBC is to blame for the
>>>> use of "forward slash" in the U.S.
>>>>
>>>> I know two intelligent people, one in a fairly senior position
>>>> with my employer, who say they can't remember which slash is
>>>> forward.  I'm inclined (sorry) to agree that if the two marks
>>>> were called "slash" and "backslash", fewer people would get
>>>> confused, but I don't know of any studies.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A simple aide-memoire for such people: slash is the one
>>> that is much easier for a right-handed person to write by hand.
>>
>> Blatant discrimination against left handers?
>>
>>> Backslash is just plain boodly awkward (thank you, Micro$oft).
>>
>> It's all a sinister plot.
>
> How very adroit of you.

Not really, it's a bit gauche.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 2024-04-21 05:49:01 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:

> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>>> A simple aide-memoire for such people: slash is the one
>>> that is much easier for a right-handed person to write by hand.
>>
>> Blatant discrimination against left handers?
>>
>>> Backslash is just plain boodly awkward (thank you, Micro$oft).
>>
>> It's all a sinister plot.
>
> That iz quier a daring statement.

Is "iz quier" Danish? It doesn't look very Danish to me. On the other
hand it does look like "izquierdo", the Spanish (derived from Basque)
for "left".

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 21/04/2024 06:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 20/04/24 15:46, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Fri, 19 Apr 2024 23:12:44 +0200: Bertel Lund Hansen
>> <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> scribeva:
>>
>>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It started when the company AOL handed out huge numbers of floppy
>>>>> disks
>>>>> which enabled beginners to sign up for a Usenet account. (And possibly
>>>>> other services; I don't know that part of the story.) All of a sudden
>>>>> lots of clueless newbies turned up in newsgroups, replying "Me too"
>>>>> to a
>>>>> lot of postings. As a result many of us started using "AOL" as an
>>>>> abbreviation for "Me too".
>>>>
>>>> Interesting. But strange. Never heard of this before,
>>>
>>> Do you know "ACK" with the same meaning, but another history?
>>
>> The ASCII sign "acknowledged"? Roger.
>
> I'm reasonably certain that ACK and NAK were used in comunications well
> before ASCII was invented, but now I can't find proof.
>
> Giving "ACK history" to Google results in pointers to the African Church
> of Kenya and to Assumption College Kilmore.
>

ACK, but not NAK or ENQ, features in a long list going back to 1939 here:

<http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/features/telegraph.shtm>

Some curiously specific codes in there:
"BILTONG -- Arrange special collection today on account of Woodley and
Co. of Cardiff and despatch by first train in refrigerator cars
consigned to Woodley and Co. at the places named, the following
consignment of meat."

--
Phil B

On 21/04/24 19:19, Phil wrote:
> On 21/04/2024 06:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 20/04/24 15:46, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>> Fri, 19 Apr 2024 23:12:44 +0200: Bertel Lund Hansen
>>> <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> It started when the company AOL handed out huge numbers of floppy
>>>>>> disks
>>>>>> which enabled beginners to sign up for a Usenet account. (And
>>>>>> possibly
>>>>>> other services; I don't know that part of the story.) All of a sudden
>>>>>> lots of clueless newbies turned up in newsgroups, replying "Me
>>>>>> too" to a
>>>>>> lot of postings. As a result many of us started using "AOL" as an
>>>>>> abbreviation for "Me too".
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting. But strange. Never heard of this before,
>>>>
>>>> Do you know "ACK" with the same meaning, but another history?
>>>
>>> The ASCII sign "acknowledged"? Roger.
>>
>> I'm reasonably certain that ACK and NAK were used in comunications well
>> before ASCII was invented, but now I can't find proof.
>>
>> Giving "ACK history" to Google results in pointers to the African Church
>> of Kenya and to Assumption College Kilmore.
>
> ACK, but not NAK or ENQ, features in a long list going back to 1939 here:
>
> <http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/features/telegraph.shtm>
>
> Some curiously specific codes in there:
> "BILTONG -- Arrange special collection today on account of Woodley and
> Co. of Cardiff and despatch by first train in refrigerator cars
> consigned to Woodley and Co. at the places named, the following
> consignment of meat."

I imagine that Woodley and Co were such frequent receivers of biltong
that it made sense to have a special code for them.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 20/04/24 15:06, lar3ryca wrote:
> > On 2024-04-19 20:04, Sn!pe wrote:
>
> >> Blame the BBC for the idiotic 'forward slash'
> >> (to distinguish it from 'backslash')
>
> Plus broadcasters in several other countries.
>
> > IBM [1]
> >
> >>> . period, full stop, dot
> >>>
> >>> ! exclamation mark, bang
> >>
> >> Also 'pling'.
> >
> > [1] acronym: (I Blame Microsoft)
>
> I was about to say the same. It was Microsoft who trained
> Windows users to think that the name of '\' is "slash".

I wasn't aware of that; it's yet another crime to lay at their door.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Saturday or thereabouts, Peter Moylan asked ...
> On 21/04/24 16:01, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>>> I'm reasonably certain that ACK and NAK were used in comunications well
>>> before ASCII was invented, but now I can't find proof.
>>
>> This article gives a hint of confirmation to your statement:
>>
>> https://www.ascii-code.com/character/%E2%90%86
>
> Thanks. I was hoping to find dates for early ACK-using protocols, but it
> looks as if that would take more effort than I'm willing to expend.

I suspect it dates back to teleprinters, such as those made by
Morkrum-Kleinschmidt. The wikiparticle the above link links to
suggests but does not confirm that my hunch may be correct.

/dps

--
Trust, but verify.

Sn!pe wrote:

> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>> >> / slash, forward slash [which I find annoying]
>>
>> > Also 'solidus', 'stroke', 'oblique'.
>>
>> > Blame the BBC for the idiotic 'forward slash'
>> > (to distinguish it from 'backslash')
>> ..
>>
>> I don't know the history, but I doubt the BBC is to blame for the
>> use of "forward slash" in the U.S.
>>
>> I know two intelligent people, one in a fairly senior position
>> with my employer, who say they can't remember which slash is
>> forward. I'm inclined (sorry) to agree that if the two marks
>> were called "slash" and "backslash", fewer people would get
>> confused, but I don't know of any studies.
>>

> A simple aide-memoire for such people: slash is the one
> that is much easier for a right-handed person to write by hand.
> Backslash is just plain boodly awkward (thank you, Micro$oft).

I don't see the awkwardness. Who writes \ by hand, incidentally?
Windows experts?

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2024-04-18, jerryfriedman wrote:

> Ross Clark wrote:
>
>> On 18/04/2024 4:17 a.m., James Harris wrote:
>>> If preparing a book it's natural to append an index of key words and to
>>> list them in alphabetical order. But what if one wanted to index a
>>> technical book in which a reader may want to look up 'symbols' which
>>> begin with or are made up of punctuation characters? What order should
>>> they appear in?
>>>
>>> For example, should a symbol such as
>>>
>>>   %%
>>>
>>> come before of after a symbol such as
>>>
>>>   !=
>>>
>>> and where would
>>>
>>>   $
>>>
>>> fit in?
>>>
>>> I thought about following ASCII but it has its punctuation characters in
>>> an unintuitive order - for example, its single and double quotes are not
>>> adjacent and it has backslash in between opening and closing square
>>> brackets. Neither of those makes much sense to a human.
>>>
>>> Hence the query: does anyone know of a suitable standard or
>>> human-friendly ordering for punctuation symbols?
>>>
>
>> Don't these symbols have names? E.g. percent, exclamation, dollar...
>> That would seem to be a simple way of alphabetizing them in an index.
>> They wouldn't be all together, of course, but why would you need that?
>
> I just learned that some authorities--the Chicago Manual of Style,
> at least--recommend alphabetizing isolated numbers that way. I don't
> remember ever noticing that.
>
> https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/CHIIndexingComplete.pdf
>
> At least in English, unlike French, there's a nearly complete
> consensus on the names of the numbers. But does _101 Dalmatians_
> come before or after (*wikips*) the Korean TV series _100 Days
> My Prince_?

It's more complicated than that: do you alphabetize "101..." as if "A
hundred and one", "A hundred one", "Hundred and one", "Hundred one",
"One hundred and one", or "One hundred one"?

--
books by the blameless and by the dead

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

>> That iz quier a daring statement.
>
> Is "iz quier" Danish?

No.

> It doesn't look very Danish to me. On the other
> hand it does look like "izquierdo", the Spanish (derived from Basque)
> for "left".

That was the intention.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

On 2024-04-21 12:13:22 +0000, Sn!pe said:

> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 20/04/24 15:06, lar3ryca wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-19 20:04, Sn!pe wrote:
>>
>>>> Blame the BBC for the idiotic 'forward slash'
>>>> (to distinguish it from 'backslash')
>>
>> Plus broadcasters in several other countries.
>>
>>> IBM [1]
>>>
>>>>> . period, full stop, dot
>>>>>
>>>>> ! exclamation mark, bang
>>>>
>>>> Also 'pling'.
>>>
>>> [1] acronym: (I Blame Microsoft)
>>
>> I was about to say the same. It was Microsoft who trained
>> Windows users to think that the name of '\' is "slash".
>
> I wasn't aware of that; it's yet another crime to lay at their door.

Even worse than inventing \ in the first place.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.