1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
the funniest guy I ever met.

Does that correspond to:

a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably the
time during which I was in college.)

b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
the funniest guy I had ever met.

or:
c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
the funniest guy I have ever met.

Gratefully.
Navi

Lost in the Twilight Zone of the English language
Interested in structures on the margins of grammaticality
Obsessed with ambiguity

Le 16/11/2023 à 11:26, arthurvv vart a écrit :
>
> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I ever met.
>
> Does that correspond to:
>
> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably the
> time during which I was in college.)
>
> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I had ever met.
>
> or:
> c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I have ever met.

I think this is one of those
if-you-want-to-get-there-I-wouldn't-start-from-here questions.

Shunning the word 'guy' from personal preference, I'd say:

... He was the funniest chap I'd ever met.

Or:

... He was the funniest chap I've ever met.

Or:

... he was the funniest of my fellow students (etc.).

The simple past tense needs an anchor if it's not to be ambiguous.

On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:26:31 AM UTC-5, arthurvv vart wrote:

> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I ever met.
>
> Does that correspond to:
>
> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably the
> time during which I was in college.)

no

> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I had ever met.

If that was what you meant, than that is what you would have said.

> or:
> c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I have ever met.

Absolutely not. (Sequence of tenses.)

--
I just discovered that lurking, in the far upper right corner of the screen
of the Captcha page where no one has any reason to look, is a very pale
blue "Continue," which causes the Captcha to stop preventing me from
posting.

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023, at 07:57:34, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:26:310 >
>> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>> the funniest guy I ever met.
>>
>> Does that correspond to:
>>
>> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably the
>> time during which I was in college.)
>
>no
>
>> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>> the funniest guy I had ever met.
>
>If that was what you meant, than that is what you would have said.
>
>> or:
>> c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>> the funniest guy I have ever met.
>
>Absolutely not. (Sequence of tenses.)
>
Curious. In my opinion, 1) and c) have identical meanings. There's no
practical difference in this context between "I ever met" and "I have
ever met". Both cover the complete span of the past at the time of
speaking.
--
Paul W

On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:48:27 PM UTC-5, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023, at 07:57:34, Peter T. Daniels posted:
> >On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:26:310 >

> >> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> >> the funniest guy I ever met.
> >> Does that correspond to:
> >> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> >> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably the
> >> time during which I was in college.)
> >no
> >> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> >> the funniest guy I had ever met.
> >If that was what you meant, than that is what you would have said.
> >> or:
> >> c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> >> the funniest guy I have ever met.
> >Absolutely not. (Sequence of tenses.)
>
> Curious. In my opinion, 1) and c) have identical meanings. There's no
> practical difference in this context between "I ever met" and "I have
> ever met". Both cover the complete span of the past at the time of
> speaking.

The decline of the aspect distinction in BrE has been noticed here before.

But yes, if we could say (c) it would mean the same as (1).

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023, at 06:10:07, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:48:270 >> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023, at 07:57:34, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>> >On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:26:310 >
>
>> >> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>> >> the funniest guy I ever met.
>> >> Does that correspond to:
>> >> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>> >> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably the
>> >> time during which I was in college.)
>> >no
>> >> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>> >> the funniest guy I had ever met.
>> >If that was what you meant, than that is what you would have said.
>> >> or:
>> >> c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>> >> the funniest guy I have ever met.
>> >Absolutely not. (Sequence of tenses.)
>>
>> Curious. In my opinion, 1) and c) have identical meanings. There's no
>> practical difference in this context between "I ever met" and "I have
>> ever met". Both cover the complete span of the past at the time of
>> speaking.
>
>The decline of the aspect distinction in BrE has been noticed here before.
>
OK. I don't know about that, was never taught it, never worked it out
for myself. It's not nice to be ignorant, but sometimes a fellow just
has to live with it.

>But yes, if we could say (c) it would mean the same as (1).

--
Paul W

On 17/11/23 10:43, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023, at 07:57:34, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>> On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:26:310 >
>>> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>> the funniest guy I ever met.
>>>
>>> Does that correspond to:
>>>
>>> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably
>>> the time during which I was in college.)
>>
>> no
>>
>>> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>> the funniest guy I had ever met.
>>
>> If that was what you meant, than that is what you would have said.
>>
>>> or: c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He
>>> was the funniest guy I have ever met.
>>
>> Absolutely not. (Sequence of tenses.)
>>
> Curious. In my opinion, 1) and c) have identical meanings. There's no
> practical difference in this context between "I ever met" and "I
> have ever met". Both cover the complete span of the past at the time
> of speaking.

Read (c) again. If it had been "He _is_ the funniest guy I have ever
met" it would have made sense.

The important difference here is not the one between "I ever met" and "I
have ever met". OK, that's a difference, but the really big conflict is
the mismatch of tenses between "was" and "have ever met".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Friday, November 17, 2023 at 5:26:44 PM UTC-5, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023, at 06:10:07, Peter T. Daniels posted:
> >On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:48:270 >> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023, at 07:57:34, Peter T. Daniels posted:
> >> >On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:26:310 >

> >> >> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> >> >> the funniest guy I ever met.
> >> >> Does that correspond to:
> >> >> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> >> >> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably the
> >> >> time during which I was in college.)
> >> >no
> >> >> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> >> >> the funniest guy I had ever met.
> >> >If that was what you meant, than that is what you would have said.
> >> >> or:
> >> >> c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> >> >> the funniest guy I have ever met.
> >> >Absolutely not. (Sequence of tenses.)
> >> Curious. In my opinion, 1) and c) have identical meanings. There's no
> >> practical difference in this context between "I ever met" and "I have
> >> ever met". Both cover the complete span of the past at the time of
> >> speaking.
> >The decline of the aspect distinction in BrE has been noticed here before.
>
> OK. I don't know about that, was never taught it, never worked it out
> for myself. It's not nice to be ignorant, but sometimes a fellow just
> has to live with it.

It's not something that ever came to the attention of prescriptivists,
so it would never be mentioned in school. It's just a feature that is
preserved in AmE, going away in BrE.

As so often, the "peripheral" dialect is more conservative than the
"central" dialect. Corpus linguistics could help see what's going on
in AusE, SAfE, and NZE, which all got started (separated from the
"center") at different times.

> >But yes, if we could say (c) it would mean the same as (1).

Thank you all very much,

> Read (c) again. If it had been "He _is_ the funniest guy I have ever
> met" it would have made sense.
>
> The important difference here is not the one between "I ever met" and "I
> have ever met". OK, that's a difference, but the really big conflict is
> the mismatch of tenses between "was" and "have ever met".
>
> --
> Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
> Newcastle, NSW

That makes perfect sense,

But what if the guy was dead?

a) He was the funniest guy I've ever seen.
b) He was the funniest guy I ever saw,

I think 'b' makes sense in this context.

Gratefully,
Navi

Lost in the Twilight Zone of the English language
Interested in strange structures
Obsessed with ambiguity

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, at 10:53:15, Peter Moylan posted:
>On 17/11/23 10:43, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023, at 07:57:34, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>> On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:26:310 >
>>>> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>> the funniest guy I ever met.
>>>>
>>>> Does that correspond to:
>>>>
>>>> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably
>>>> the time during which I was in college.)
>>>
>>> no
>>>
>>>> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>> the funniest guy I had ever met.
>>>
>>> If that was what you meant, than that is what you would have said.
>>>
>>>> or: c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He
>>>> was the funniest guy I have ever met.
>>>
>>> Absolutely not. (Sequence of tenses.)
>>>
>> Curious. In my opinion, 1) and c) have identical meanings. There's no
>> practical difference in this context between "I ever met" and "I
>> have ever met". Both cover the complete span of the past at the time
>> of speaking.
>
>Read (c) again. If it had been "He _is_ the funniest guy I have ever
>met" it would have made sense.

No, I don't agree. You can't say of someone in the past that he has in
the present any particular quality.
>
>The important difference here is not the one between "I ever met" and "I
>have ever met". OK, that's a difference, but the really big conflict is
>the mismatch of tenses between "was" and "have ever met".
>
He was [that], and I have never met anyone [before or since] more [that]
than he was.
--
Paul W

On 19/11/23 09:54, arthurvv vart wrote:
> Thank you all very much,
>
>> Read (c) again. If it had been "He _is_ the funniest guy I have ever
>> met" it would have made sense.
>>
>> The important difference here is not the one between "I ever met" and "I
>> have ever met". OK, that's a difference, but the really big conflict is
>> the mismatch of tenses between "was" and "have ever met".
>>
>> --
>> Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
>> Newcastle, NSW
>
> That makes perfect sense,
>
> But what if the guy was dead?
>
> a) He was the funniest guy I've ever seen.
> b) He was the funniest guy I ever saw,
>
> I think 'b' makes sense in this context.

(a) also makes sense if you change "was" to "is".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 17-Nov-23 23:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 17/11/23 10:43, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023, at 07:57:34, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>> On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:26:310 >
>>>> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>> the funniest guy I ever met.
>>>>
>>>> Does that correspond to:
>>>>
>>>> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably
>>>> the time during which I was in college.)
>>>
>>> no
>>>
>>>> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>> the funniest guy I had ever met.
>>>
>>> If that was what you meant, than that is what you would have said.
>>>
>>>> or: c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He
>>>> was the funniest guy I have ever met.
>>>
>>> Absolutely not. (Sequence of tenses.)
>>>
>> Curious. In my opinion, 1) and c) have identical meanings. There's no
>>  practical difference in this context between "I ever met" and "I
>> have ever met". Both cover the complete span of the past at the time
>> of speaking.
>
> Read (c) again. If it had been "He _is_ the funniest guy I have ever
> met" it would have made sense.

Perhaps Tom kicked the bucket some time back. Can you then say of him
"He is..."?
>
> The important difference here is not the one between "I ever met" and "I
> have ever met". OK, that's a difference, but the really big conflict is
> the mismatch of tenses between "was" and "have ever met".
>

--
Sam Plusnet

On 19/11/23 10:21, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, at 10:53:15, Peter Moylan posted:
>> On 17/11/23 10:43, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023, at 07:57:34, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>>> On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:26:310 >
>>>>> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He
>>>>> was the funniest guy I ever met.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does that correspond to:
>>>>>
>>>>> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He
>>>>> was the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time
>>>>> (presumably the time during which I was in college.)
>>>>
>>>> no
>>>>
>>>>> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He
>>>>> was the funniest guy I had ever met.
>>>>
>>>> If that was what you meant, than that is what you would have
>>>> said.
>>>>
>>>>> or: c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom.
>>>>> He was the funniest guy I have ever met.
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely not. (Sequence of tenses.)
>>>>
>>> Curious. In my opinion, 1) and c) have identical meanings.
>>> There's no practical difference in this context between "I ever
>>> met" and "I have ever met". Both cover the complete span of the
>>> past at the time of speaking.
>>
>> Read (c) again. If it had been "He _is_ the funniest guy I have
>> ever met" it would have made sense.
>
> No, I don't agree. You can't say of someone in the past that he has
> in the present any particular quality.
>>
>> The important difference here is not the one between "I ever met"
>> and "I have ever met". OK, that's a difference, but the really big
>> conflict is the mismatch of tenses between "was" and "have ever
>> met".
>>
> He was [that], and I have never met anyone [before or since] more
> [that] than he was.

I'm with you so far. All of that makes sense if you use the past tense
"I ever met". Where we disagree is where the present perfect "I have
ever met" enters the picture. That implies "up until now", so it is a
statement about the present. As a present tense, it requires tense
agreement in the other part of the sentence.

Alternatively, you could keep the "was" if you switched to saying "I had
ever met", which is indeed a statement about the past.

Try putting it into the future: "He was the funniest person I will ever
meet". Can you say that? I can't. Equally, I can't use a past tense in a
present-tense construct.

(It's different in French, where in modern times the passé composé has
become a genuine past tense, despite still having the structure of the
present perfect.)

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 19/11/23 11:08, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 17-Nov-23 23:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 17/11/23 10:43, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023, at 07:57:34, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>>> On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:26:310 >
>>>>> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>>> the funniest guy I ever met.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does that correspond to:
>>>>>
>>>>> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>>> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably
>>>>> the time during which I was in college.)
>>>>
>>>> no
>>>>
>>>>> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>>> the funniest guy I had ever met.
>>>>
>>>> If that was what you meant, than that is what you would have said.
>>>>
>>>>> or: c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He
>>>>> was the funniest guy I have ever met.
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely not. (Sequence of tenses.)
>>>>
>>> Curious. In my opinion, 1) and c) have identical meanings. There's no
>>> practical difference in this context between "I ever met" and "I
>>> have ever met". Both cover the complete span of the past at the time
>>> of speaking.
>>
>> Read (c) again. If it had been "He _is_ the funniest guy I have ever
>> met" it would have made sense.
>
> Perhaps Tom kicked the bucket some time back. Can you then say of him
> "He is..."?

No, I would say "I _had_ ever met".

>> The important difference here is not the one between "I ever met" and "I
>> have ever met". OK, that's a difference, but the really big conflict is
>> the mismatch of tenses between "was" and "have ever met".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 23:21:07 +0000, Paul Wolff
<bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, at 10:53:15, Peter Moylan posted:
>>On 17/11/23 10:43, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023, at 07:57:34, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>>> On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 6:26:310 >
>>>>> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>>> the funniest guy I ever met.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does that correspond to:
>>>>>
>>>>> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>>> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably
>>>>> the time during which I was in college.)
>>>>
>>>> no
>>>>
>>>>> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
>>>>> the funniest guy I had ever met.
>>>>
>>>> If that was what you meant, than that is what you would have said.
>>>>
>>>>> or: c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He
>>>>> was the funniest guy I have ever met.
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely not. (Sequence of tenses.)
>>>>
>>> Curious. In my opinion, 1) and c) have identical meanings. There's no
>>> practical difference in this context between "I ever met" and "I
>>> have ever met". Both cover the complete span of the past at the time
>>> of speaking.
>>
>>Read (c) again. If it had been "He _is_ the funniest guy I have ever
>>met" it would have made sense.
>
>No, I don't agree. You can't say of someone in the past that he has in
>the present any particular quality.

A college fraternity brother of mine - John Z - was the funniest guy I
knew at the time. Given any subject, he could tell a joke related to
that subject and his delivery was great.

About 30 years later my wife and I were checking into a hotel in NYC
and John Z was just ahead of us in line at the reception desk. We
arranged to have dinner with him the next night. (He was there for a
business meeting) I had primed my wife with stories about John Z's
legendary joke telling abilites.

It was a long, boring meal. He was a financial advisor and droned on
endlessly about the advantages/disadvantages of various types of
annunites and other retirement income investments.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 3:26:31 AM UTC-8, arthurvv vart wrote:
> 1) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I ever met.
>
> Does that correspond to:
>
> a) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I ever met in that period of time (presumably the
> time during which I was in college.)
>
> b) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I had ever met.
>
> or:
> c) When I was in college, I used to hang around with Tom. He was
> the funniest guy I have ever met.
>
> Gratefully.
> Navi
>
> Lost in the Twilight Zone of the English language
> Interested in structures on the margins of grammaticality
> Obsessed with ambiguity
Oh I thought you said when I was in a collage but that was when I was taking acid