Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?

"'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in it and
make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top disaster
management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collapsed-tunnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/

Since he bothered to mention the type of steel needed for a rescue, I
looked it up to see why it's pertinent to the rescue mission.
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/mild-steel

a type of steel containing very little carbon that is easy to shape but
cannot be made stronger and harder through heating and cooling

Probably this quote is why it's important.
"Due to its excellent workability, weldability and relatively low cost"
https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/what-is-mild-steel-composition-properties-density-grades-types-uses

All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.

Basically, it's easily worked steel.
https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-mild-steel/

Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com> wrote:

> Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
>
> "'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in it and
> make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top disaster
> management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
> https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collapsed-tu
nnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
>
> Since he bothered to mention the type of steel needed for a rescue, I
> looked it up to see why it's pertinent to the rescue mission.
> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/mild-steel
>
> a type of steel containing very little carbon that is easy to shape but
> cannot be made stronger and harder through heating and cooling
>
> Probably this quote is why it's important.
> "Due to its excellent workability, weldability and relatively low cost"
> https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/what-is-mild-steel-composition-properties-den
sity-grades-types-uses
>
> All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
> so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.
>
> Basically, it's easily worked steel.
> https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-mild-steel/

The important property is malleability. Mild steel will easily deform,
so dent, but it will not not easily rupture, tear, or even break.
In an unstable environment where loose rocks falling on your pipe
this is an important property.

Jan

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 11:17:41 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com>
wrote:

>Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
>
>"'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in it and
>make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top disaster
>management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
>https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collapsed-tunnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
>
>Since he bothered to mention the type of steel needed for a rescue, I
>looked it up to see why it's pertinent to the rescue mission.
>https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/mild-steel
>
>a type of steel containing very little carbon that is easy to shape but
>cannot be made stronger and harder through heating and cooling
>
>Probably this quote is why it's important.
>"Due to its excellent workability, weldability and relatively low cost"
>https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/what-is-mild-steel-composition-properties-density-grades-types-uses
>
>All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
>so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.

I don't think the speaker felt that it mattered to describe the type
of steel, but - to him - providing the full description was ingrained
in his vocabulary.

>Basically, it's easily worked steel.
>https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-mild-steel/

One could also wonder why you feel the full description mattered. The
article writer simply recorded what was said.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023, at 11:17:41, Ken Blake posted:
>Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
>
>"'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in it and
>make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top disaster
>management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
>https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collap
>sed-tunnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
>
>Since he bothered to mention the type of steel needed for a rescue, I
>looked it up to see why it's pertinent to the rescue mission.
>https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/mild-steel
>
>a type of steel containing very little carbon that is easy to shape but
>cannot be made stronger and harder through heating and cooling
>
>Probably this quote is why it's important.
>"Due to its excellent workability, weldability and relatively low cost"
>https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/what-is-mild-steel-composition-properti
>es-density-grades-types-uses
>
>All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
>so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.

Then why put any detail at all into the plan for rescue? "The plan is to
make a path through the debris." If that is said, then why not say a
bit more about how the path will be made? Why say "drill through"? Why
not say "to put pipes" without saying what sort of pipes? Wouldn't
intelligent readers like me, perhaps not you, be curious about the
method used? The guy told Reuters the basic ones of those facts, and
good for him. Like "metal", "steel" isn't only one thing. If Reuters
hadn't reported "mild steel" I'd have been curious as why the kind of
steel was thought too difficult for the public to be told. Or whether
corrosion-resistant steel might have been needed. Or...
>
>Basically, it's easily worked steel.
>https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-mild-steel/

--
Paul W
with a steel industry pension

El Wed, 15 Nov 2023 11:17:41 -0700, Ken Blake escribió:

> All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
> so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.

"Mild steel" is a much used name. It's more or less "common or garden
steel".

There's also "high carbon steel", "hight speed steel" and various other
types.

It's quite normal for those that know a little about metal to refer to
mild steel by it's full name.

It's not seen as a description, just its name.

I'm going out for some fresh air.

Might have a cup of hot tea first though.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023, at 11:17:41, Ken Blake posted:
> >Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
> >
> >"'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in it and
> >make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top disaster
> >management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
> >https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collap
> >sed-tunnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
> >
> >Since he bothered to mention the type of steel needed for a rescue, I
> >looked it up to see why it's pertinent to the rescue mission.
> >https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/mild-steel
> >
> >a type of steel containing very little carbon that is easy to shape but
> >cannot be made stronger and harder through heating and cooling
> >
> >Probably this quote is why it's important.
> >"Due to its excellent workability, weldability and relatively low cost"
> >https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/what-is-mild-steel-composition-properti
> >es-density-grades-types-uses
> >
> >All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
> >so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.
>
> Then why put any detail at all into the plan for rescue? "The plan is to
> make a path through the debris." If that is said, then why not say a
> bit more about how the path will be made? Why say "drill through"? Why
> not say "to put pipes" without saying what sort of pipes? Wouldn't
> intelligent readers like me, perhaps not you, be curious about the
> method used? The guy told Reuters the basic ones of those facts, and
> good for him. Like "metal", "steel" isn't only one thing. If Reuters
> hadn't reported "mild steel" I'd have been curious as why the kind of
> steel was thought too difficult for the public to be told. Or whether
> corrosion-resistant steel might have been needed. Or...

Casually dropping the term suggests engineering competence.
Why search for more behind it?

Jan

On 16/11/23 05:17, Ken Blake wrote:

> Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
>
> "'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in it
> and make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top
> disaster management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
> https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collapsed-tunnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/

For people who work with steel, the distinction is so basic that they
would just naturally used the qualified form in natural speech.

I have a classical guitar. You probably understand why I didn't just say
"I have a guitar".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 20:26:48 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:

>Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com> wrote:
>
>> Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
>>
>> "'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in it and
>> make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top disaster
>> management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
>> https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collapsed-tu
>nnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
>>
>> Since he bothered to mention the type of steel needed for a rescue, I
>> looked it up to see why it's pertinent to the rescue mission.
>> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/mild-steel
>>
>> a type of steel containing very little carbon that is easy to shape but
>> cannot be made stronger and harder through heating and cooling
>>
>> Probably this quote is why it's important.
>> "Due to its excellent workability, weldability and relatively low cost"
>> https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/what-is-mild-steel-composition-properties-den
>sity-grades-types-uses
>>
>> All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
>> so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.
>>
>> Basically, it's easily worked steel.
>> https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-mild-steel/
>
>The important property is malleability. Mild steel will easily deform,
>so dent, but it will not not easily rupture, tear, or even break.
>In an unstable environment where loose rocks falling on your pipe
>this is an important property.

Little Known Facts:
Scientific Properties of Glass

When glass shatters slivers can be found as far as ten miles away.

"J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote

>> Then why put any detail at all into the plan for rescue? "The plan is to
>> make a path through the debris." If that is said, then why not say a
>> bit more about how the path will be made? Why say "drill through"? Why
>> not say "to put pipes" without saying what sort of pipes? Wouldn't
>> intelligent readers like me, perhaps not you, be curious about the
>> method used? The guy told Reuters the basic ones of those facts, and
>> good for him. Like "metal", "steel" isn't only one thing. If Reuters
>> hadn't reported "mild steel" I'd have been curious as why the kind of
>> steel was thought too difficult for the public to be told. Or whether
>> corrosion-resistant steel might have been needed. Or...
>
> Casually dropping the term suggests engineering competence.
> Why search for more behind it?

I understand the point, which perhaps overly simplified is that the word,
while meaningful to the speaker, is completely meaningless to the reader.

And that it's OK for people who tend to skip all words they don't know the
meaning of, as the sentence means the same with or without the word.

But not everyone skips the meaning of each & every word they don't know.
Do they?

Even if some readers are acquainted with the term, it's still meaningless.
So why put it there - was my question.

When I read the article, as I do will all articles that I read, I try to
understand what the person is saying - so I looked up what mild steel was.

Had I omnipotently known ahead of time the additional clarifying word was
intended to be meaningless in terms of the rescue, I wouldn't have bothered
to look it up, of course.

But I don't normally expect people to insert meaningless words.

Since the reader is presumed not to know what mild steel is, why insert it
when it doesn't change the meaning of the article in any positive way?

However, I did see the response that said mild steel is what you'd use to
prevent the steel from rupturing with people inside if a rock were to fall
on it - so maybe mild steel is what is used in all such rescue attempts.

I think most of you are saying it's just a word - get over it - and that's
fine, but for me, I looked up and then realized I had wasted my time as it
didn't help me understand the rescue attempt any better the kind of steel.

However, if it's meaningful, then it's important and should be used.
My question specifically on this newsgroup was how it's meaningful.

It turns out, it's probably not meaningful.
And that's that.

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:05:28 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com>
wrote:

>"J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote
>
>>> Then why put any detail at all into the plan for rescue? "The plan is to
>>> make a path through the debris." If that is said, then why not say a
>>> bit more about how the path will be made? Why say "drill through"? Why
>>> not say "to put pipes" without saying what sort of pipes? Wouldn't
>>> intelligent readers like me, perhaps not you, be curious about the
>>> method used? The guy told Reuters the basic ones of those facts, and
>>> good for him. Like "metal", "steel" isn't only one thing. If Reuters
>>> hadn't reported "mild steel" I'd have been curious as why the kind of
>>> steel was thought too difficult for the public to be told. Or whether
>>> corrosion-resistant steel might have been needed. Or...
>>
>> Casually dropping the term suggests engineering competence.
>> Why search for more behind it?
>
>I understand the point, which perhaps overly simplified is that the word,
>while meaningful to the speaker, is completely meaningless to the reader.
>
>And that it's OK for people who tend to skip all words they don't know the
>meaning of, as the sentence means the same with or without the word.
>
>But not everyone skips the meaning of each & every word they don't know.
>Do they?
>
>Even if some readers are acquainted with the term, it's still meaningless.
>So why put it there - was my question.
>
>When I read the article, as I do will all articles that I read, I try to
>understand what the person is saying - so I looked up what mild steel was.
>
>Had I omnipotently known ahead of time the additional clarifying word was
>intended to be meaningless in terms of the rescue, I wouldn't have bothered
>to look it up, of course.
>
>But I don't normally expect people to insert meaningless words.
>
>Since the reader is presumed not to know what mild steel is, why insert it
>when it doesn't change the meaning of the article in any positive way?

It wasn't inserted. The engineer said it and the Reuters article
quoted what he said. To the engineer, it was a word he knew and
understood to be part of the basic description.

>
>However, I did see the response that said mild steel is what you'd use to
>prevent the steel from rupturing with people inside if a rock were to fall
>on it - so maybe mild steel is what is used in all such rescue attempts.
>
>I think most of you are saying it's just a word - get over it - and that's
>fine, but for me, I looked up and then realized I had wasted my time as it
>didn't help me understand the rescue attempt any better the kind of steel.
>
>However, if it's meaningful, then it's important and should be used.
>My question specifically on this newsgroup was how it's meaningful.
>
>It turns out, it's probably not meaningful.
>And that's that.

Mack A. Damia <drsteerforth@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 20:26:48 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder) wrote:
>
> >Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
> >>
> >> "'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in it and
> >> make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top disaster
> >> management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
> >> https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collapsed
-tu
> >nnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
> >>
> >> Since he bothered to mention the type of steel needed for a rescue, I
> >> looked it up to see why it's pertinent to the rescue mission.
> >> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/mild-steel
> >>
> >> a type of steel containing very little carbon that is easy to shape but
> >> cannot be made stronger and harder through heating and cooling
> >>
> >> Probably this quote is why it's important.
> >> "Due to its excellent workability, weldability and relatively low cost"
> >> https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/what-is-mild-steel-composition-properties-
den
> >sity-grades-types-uses
> >>
> >> All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
> >> so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.
> >>
> >> Basically, it's easily worked steel.
> >> https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-mild-steel/
> >
> >The important property is malleability. Mild steel will easily deform,
> >so dent, but it will not not easily rupture, tear, or even break.
> >In an unstable environment where loose rocks falling on your pipe
> >this is an important property.
>
> Little Known Facts:
> Scientific Properties of Glass
>
> When glass shatters slivers can be found as far as ten miles away.

Yes. And a swan can break your arm with a wingbeat.

Jan

Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com> wrote:

> "J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote
>
> >> Then why put any detail at all into the plan for rescue? "The plan is to
> >> make a path through the debris." If that is said, then why not say a
> >> bit more about how the path will be made? Why say "drill through"? Why
> >> not say "to put pipes" without saying what sort of pipes? Wouldn't
> >> intelligent readers like me, perhaps not you, be curious about the
> >> method used? The guy told Reuters the basic ones of those facts, and
> >> good for him. Like "metal", "steel" isn't only one thing. If Reuters
> >> hadn't reported "mild steel" I'd have been curious as why the kind of
> >> steel was thought too difficult for the public to be told. Or whether
> >> corrosion-resistant steel might have been needed. Or...
> >
> > Casually dropping the term suggests engineering competence.
> > Why search for more behind it?
>
> I understand the point, which perhaps overly simplified is that the word,
> while meaningful to the speaker, is completely meaningless to the reader.
>
> And that it's OK for people who tend to skip all words they don't know the
> meaning of, as the sentence means the same with or without the word.
>
> But not everyone skips the meaning of each & every word they don't know.
> Do they?
>
> Even if some readers are acquainted with the term, it's still meaningless.
> So why put it there - was my question.

It is just what the stuff is called.
(by anyone with any familiarity with engineering materials)

> When I read the article, as I do will all articles that I read, I try to
> understand what the person is saying - so I looked up what mild steel was.
>
> Had I omnipotently known ahead of time the additional clarifying word was
> intended to be meaningless in terms of the rescue, I wouldn't have bothered
> to look it up, of course.
>
> But I don't normally expect people to insert meaningless words.

What is meaningless to you may be meaningful to others.
For comparison, a silversmith may say
that an artwork that he has created is made of sterling silver.
That's just what he calls the stuff.

> Since the reader is presumed not to know what mild steel is, why insert it
> when it doesn't change the meaning of the article in any positive way?
>
> However, I did see the response that said mild steel is what you'd use to
> prevent the steel from rupturing with people inside if a rock were to fall
> on it - so maybe mild steel is what is used in all such rescue attempts.
>
> I think most of you are saying it's just a word - get over it - and that's
> fine, but for me, I looked up and then realized I had wasted my time as it
> didn't help me understand the rescue attempt any better the kind of steel.

But you did learn what mild steel is,
and that may be another snippet of useful knowlwdge, some time.

> However, if it's meaningful, then it's important and should be used.
> My question specifically on this newsgroup was how it's meaningful.
>
> It turns out, it's probably not meaningful.
> And that's that.

It may prevent you from getting into a fit of rage,
like PTD did when I happened to mention 'mild steel'
some years ago, in this forum,

Jan

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 16/11/23 05:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>
> > Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
> >
> > "'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in it
> > and make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top
> > disaster management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
> > https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collapsed-
tunnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
>
> For people who work with steel, the distinction is so basic that they
> would just naturally used the qualified form in natural speech.
>
> I have a classical guitar. You probably understand why I didn't just say
> "I have a guitar".

Are you trying to deny that rocks may fall?

Jan

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:56:55 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:

>Mack A. Damia <drsteerforth@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 20:26:48 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
>> Lodder) wrote:
>>
>> >Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
>> >>
>> >> "'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in it and
>> >> make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top disaster
>> >> management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
>> >> https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collapsed
>-tu
>> >nnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
>> >>
>> >> Since he bothered to mention the type of steel needed for a rescue, I
>> >> looked it up to see why it's pertinent to the rescue mission.
>> >> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/mild-steel
>> >>
>> >> a type of steel containing very little carbon that is easy to shape but
>> >> cannot be made stronger and harder through heating and cooling
>> >>
>> >> Probably this quote is why it's important.
>> >> "Due to its excellent workability, weldability and relatively low cost"
>> >> https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/what-is-mild-steel-composition-properties-
>den
>> >sity-grades-types-uses
>> >>
>> >> All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
>> >> so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.
>> >>
>> >> Basically, it's easily worked steel.
>> >> https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-mild-steel/
>> >
>> >The important property is malleability. Mild steel will easily deform,
>> >so dent, but it will not not easily rupture, tear, or even break.
>> >In an unstable environment where loose rocks falling on your pipe
>> >this is an important property.
>>
>> Little Known Facts:
>> Scientific Properties of Glass
>>
>> When glass shatters slivers can be found as far as ten miles away.
>
>Yes. And a swan can break your arm with a wingbeat.

They have powers that transcend wingbeats.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/S6oAAOSwac5hCr~g/s-l1600.jpg

Mack A. Damia <drsteerforth@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:56:55 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder) wrote:
>
> >Mack A. Damia <drsteerforth@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 20:26:48 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> >> Lodder) wrote:
> >>
> >> >Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
> >> >>
> >> >> "'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in
> >> >> it and make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top
> >> >> disaster management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
> >> >> https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collap
sed
> >-tu
> >> >nnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
> >> >>
> >> >> Since he bothered to mention the type of steel needed for a rescue, I
> >> >> looked it up to see why it's pertinent to the rescue mission.
> >> >> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/mild-st
eel
> >> >>
> >> >> a type of steel containing very little carbon that is easy to shape but
> >> >> cannot be made stronger and harder through heating and cooling
> >> >>
> >> >> Probably this quote is why it's important.
> >> >> "Due to its excellent workability, weldability and relatively low cost"
> >> >> https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/what-is-mild-steel-composition-properti
es-
> >den
> >> >sity-grades-types-uses
> >> >>
> >> >> All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
> >> >> so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Basically, it's easily worked steel.
> >> >> https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-mild-steel/
> >> >
> >> >The important property is malleability. Mild steel will easily deform,
> >> >so dent, but it will not not easily rupture, tear, or even break.
> >> >In an unstable environment where loose rocks falling on your pipe
> >> >this is an important property.
> >>
> >> Little Known Facts:
> >> Scientific Properties of Glass
> >>
> >> When glass shatters slivers can be found as far as ten miles away.
> >
> >Yes. And a swan can break your arm with a wingbeat.
>
> They have powers that transcend wingbeats.
>
> https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/S6oAAOSwac5hCr~g/s-l1600.jpg

Certainly. But why not just admit that those glass shards being found
ten miles away are made of bullshit?

Jan

In article <va5blipi9j18p448t6944s50rtv46a89j4@4ax.com>,
tonycooper214@gmail.com says...
>
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:05:28 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com>
> wrote:
>
> >"J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote
> >
> >>> Then why put any detail at all into the plan for rescue? "The plan is to
> >>> make a path through the debris." If that is said, then why not say a
> >>> bit more about how the path will be made? Why say "drill through"? Why
> >>> not say "to put pipes" without saying what sort of pipes? Wouldn't
> >>> intelligent readers like me, perhaps not you, be curious about the
> >>> method used? The guy told Reuters the basic ones of those facts, and
> >>> good for him. Like "metal", "steel" isn't only one thing. If Reuters
> >>> hadn't reported "mild steel" I'd have been curious as why the kind of
> >>> steel was thought too difficult for the public to be told. Or whether
> >>> corrosion-resistant steel might have been needed. Or...
> >>
> >> Casually dropping the term suggests engineering competence.
> >> Why search for more behind it?
> >
> >I understand the point, which perhaps overly simplified is that the word,
> >while meaningful to the speaker, is completely meaningless to the reader.
> >
> >And that it's OK for people who tend to skip all words they don't know the
> >meaning of, as the sentence means the same with or without the word.
> >
> >But not everyone skips the meaning of each & every word they don't know.
> >Do they?
> >
> >Even if some readers are acquainted with the term, it's still meaningless.
> >So why put it there - was my question.
> >
> >When I read the article, as I do will all articles that I read, I try to
> >understand what the person is saying - so I looked up what mild steel was.
> >
> >Had I omnipotently known ahead of time the additional clarifying word was
> >intended to be meaningless in terms of the rescue, I wouldn't have bothered
> >to look it up, of course.
> >
> >But I don't normally expect people to insert meaningless words.
> >
> >Since the reader is presumed not to know what mild steel is, why insert it
> >when it doesn't change the meaning of the article in any positive way?
>
> It wasn't inserted. The engineer said it and the Reuters article
> quoted what he said. To the engineer, it was a word he knew and
> understood to be part of the basic description.

I'm married to an engineer. There are no simple questions
so unless you have half an hour to spare, don't ask.

Janet

In article <MPG.3fc0092c9b1b441e989ac9@news.individual.net>, Janet
<nobody@home.com> wrote:
> In article <va5blipi9j18p448t6944s50rtv46a89j4@4ax.com>,
> tonycooper214@gmail.com says...
> >
> > On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:05:28 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com> wrote:
> >
> > >"J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote
> > >
> > >>> Then why put any detail at all into the plan for rescue? "The plan
> > >>> is to make a path through the debris." If that is said, then why
> > >>> not say a bit more about how the path will be made? Why say "drill
> > >>> through"? Why not say "to put pipes" without saying what sort of
> > >>> pipes? Wouldn't intelligent readers like me, perhaps not you, be
> > >>> curious about the method used? The guy told Reuters the basic ones
> > >>> of those facts, and good for him. Like "metal", "steel" isn't
> > >>> only one thing. If Reuters hadn't reported "mild steel" I'd have
> > >>> been curious as why the kind of steel was thought too difficult for
> > >>> the public to be told. Or whether corrosion-resistant steel might
> > >>> have been needed. Or...
> > >>
> > >> Casually dropping the term suggests engineering competence. Why
> > >> search for more behind it?
> > >
> > >I understand the point, which perhaps overly simplified is that the
> > >word, while meaningful to the speaker, is completely meaningless to
> > >the reader.
> > >
> > >And that it's OK for people who tend to skip all words they don't know
> > >the meaning of, as the sentence means the same with or without the
> > >word.
> > >
> > >But not everyone skips the meaning of each & every word they don't
> > >know. Do they?
> > >
> > >Even if some readers are acquainted with the term, it's still
> > >meaningless. So why put it there - was my question.
> > >
> > >When I read the article, as I do will all articles that I read, I try
> > >to understand what the person is saying - so I looked up what mild
> > >steel was.
> > >
> > >Had I omnipotently known ahead of time the additional clarifying word
> > >was intended to be meaningless in terms of the rescue, I wouldn't
> > >have bothered to look it up, of course.
> > >
> > >But I don't normally expect people to insert meaningless words.
> > >
> > >Since the reader is presumed not to know what mild steel is, why
> > >insert it when it doesn't change the meaning of the article in any
> > >positive way?
> >
> > It wasn't inserted. The engineer said it and the Reuters article
> > quoted what he said. To the engineer, it was a word he knew and
> > understood to be part of the basic description.

> I'm married to an engineer. There are no simple questions so unless
> you have half an hour to spare, don't ask.

> Janet

I still remember a cautionary tale about using the wrong sort of steel from
one of my university lectures over over 60 years ago.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:22:50 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

> Mack A. Damia <drsteerforth@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:56:55 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> > Lodder) wrote:
> >
> > >Mack A. Damia <drsteerforth@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 20:26:48 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> > >> Lodder) wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in
> > >> >> it and make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top
> > >> >> disaster management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
> > >> >> https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-collap
> sed
> > >-tu
> > >> >nnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Since he bothered to mention the type of steel needed for a rescue, I
> > >> >> looked it up to see why it's pertinent to the rescue mission.
> > >> >> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/mild-st
> eel
> > >> >>
> > >> >> a type of steel containing very little carbon that is easy to shape but
> > >> >> cannot be made stronger and harder through heating and cooling
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Probably this quote is why it's important.
> > >> >> "Due to its excellent workability, weldability and relatively low cost"
> > >> >> https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/what-is-mild-steel-composition-properti
> es-
> > >den
> > >> >sity-grades-types-uses
> > >> >>
> > >> >> All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
> > >> >> so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Basically, it's easily worked steel.
> > >> >> https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-mild-steel/
> > >> >
> > >> >The important property is malleability. Mild steel will easily deform,
> > >> >so dent, but it will not not easily rupture, tear, or even break.
> > >> >In an unstable environment where loose rocks falling on your pipe
> > >> >this is an important property.
> > >>
> > >> Little Known Facts:
> > >> Scientific Properties of Glass
> > >>
> > >> When glass shatters slivers can be found as far as ten miles away.
> > >
> > >Yes. And a swan can break your arm with a wingbeat.
> >
> > They have powers that transcend wingbeats.
> >
> > https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/S6oAAOSwac5hCr~g/s-l1600.jpg

I have (once) eaten a Swan Vesta curry. No actual swan content.

Oh dear; still available!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vesta-Beef-Curry-236gm/dp/B00I46DJKU/
>
> Certainly. But why not just admit that those glass shards being found
> ten miles away are made of bullshit?
>
It's a way to see who's awake, I suppose.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:56:55 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

> Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com> wrote:
>
> > "J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote
> >
> > >> Then why put any detail at all into the plan for rescue? "The plan is to
> > >> make a path through the debris." If that is said, then why not say a
> > >> bit more about how the path will be made? Why say "drill through"? Why
> > >> not say "to put pipes" without saying what sort of pipes? Wouldn't
> > >> intelligent readers like me, perhaps not you, be curious about the
> > >> method used? The guy told Reuters the basic ones of those facts, and
> > >> good for him. Like "metal", "steel" isn't only one thing. If Reuters
> > >> hadn't reported "mild steel" I'd have been curious as why the kind of
> > >> steel was thought too difficult for the public to be told. Or whether
> > >> corrosion-resistant steel might have been needed. Or...
> > >
> > > Casually dropping the term suggests engineering competence.
> > > Why search for more behind it?
> >
> > I understand the point, which perhaps overly simplified is that the word,
> > while meaningful to the speaker, is completely meaningless to the reader.
> >
> > And that it's OK for people who tend to skip all words they don't know the
> > meaning of, as the sentence means the same with or without the word.
> >
> > But not everyone skips the meaning of each & every word they don't know.
> > Do they?
> >
> > Even if some readers are acquainted with the term, it's still meaningless.
> > So why put it there - was my question.
>
> It is just what the stuff is called.
> (by anyone with any familiarity with engineering materials)
>
> > When I read the article, as I do will all articles that I read, I try to
> > understand what the person is saying - so I looked up what mild steel was.
> >
> > Had I omnipotently known ahead of time the additional clarifying word was
> > intended to be meaningless in terms of the rescue, I wouldn't have bothered
> > to look it up, of course.
> >
> > But I don't normally expect people to insert meaningless words.
>
> What is meaningless to you may be meaningful to others.
> For comparison, a silversmith may say
> that an artwork that he has created is made of sterling silver.
> That's just what he calls the stuff.
>
> > Since the reader is presumed not to know what mild steel is, why insert it
> > when it doesn't change the meaning of the article in any positive way?
> >
> > However, I did see the response that said mild steel is what you'd use to
> > prevent the steel from rupturing with people inside if a rock were to fall
> > on it - so maybe mild steel is what is used in all such rescue attempts.
> >
> > I think most of you are saying it's just a word - get over it - and that's
> > fine, but for me, I looked up and then realized I had wasted my time as it
> > didn't help me understand the rescue attempt any better the kind of steel.
>
> But you did learn what mild steel is,
> and that may be another snippet of useful knowlwdge, some time.
>
> > However, if it's meaningful, then it's important and should be used.
> > My question specifically on this newsgroup was how it's meaningful.
> >
> > It turns out, it's probably not meaningful.
> > And that's that.
>
> It may prevent you from getting into a fit of rage,
> like PTD did when I happened to mention 'mild steel'
> some years ago, in this forum,

Ah, it's not the same without him. It's a shame we never taught him how to
usea proper newsreader. Maybe.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 15 Nov 2023, Peter Moylan wrote

> On 16/11/23 05:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
>>
>> "'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes
>> in it and make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha,
>> the top disaster management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters
>> by phone."
>> https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-
>> collapsed-tunnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
>
> For people who work with steel, the distinction is so basic that
> they would just naturally used the qualified form in natural
> speech.
>
> I have a classical guitar. You probably understand why I didn't
> just say "I have a guitar".

Indeed. The example I'd give is describing "wrought iron" or "cast
iron" railings -- I'd be surprised to see them described simply as
"iron railings".

Le 15/11/2023 à 18:17, Ken Blake a écrit :
>
> Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
>
> [...]
>
> All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
> so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.
>
> Basically, it's easily worked steel.
> https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-mild-steel/

It's the difference between "He had steel in his character" and "He had
mild steel in his character."

Strangely, it's the first that suggests he was ill tempered.

charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

> In article <MPG.3fc0092c9b1b441e989ac9@news.individual.net>, Janet
> <nobody@home.com> wrote:
> > In article <va5blipi9j18p448t6944s50rtv46a89j4@4ax.com>,
> > tonycooper214@gmail.com says...
> > >
> > > On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:05:28 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >"J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote
> > > >
> > > >>> Then why put any detail at all into the plan for rescue? "The plan
> > > >>> is to make a path through the debris." If that is said, then why
> > > >>> not say a bit more about how the path will be made? Why say "drill
> > > >>> through"? Why not say "to put pipes" without saying what sort of
> > > >>> pipes? Wouldn't intelligent readers like me, perhaps not you, be
> > > >>> curious about the method used? The guy told Reuters the basic ones
> > > >>> of those facts, and good for him. Like "metal", "steel" isn't
> > > >>> only one thing. If Reuters hadn't reported "mild steel" I'd have
> > > >>> been curious as why the kind of steel was thought too difficult for
> > > >>> the public to be told. Or whether corrosion-resistant steel might
> > > >>> have been needed. Or...
> > > >>
> > > >> Casually dropping the term suggests engineering competence. Why
> > > >> search for more behind it?
> > > >
> > > >I understand the point, which perhaps overly simplified is that the
> > > >word, while meaningful to the speaker, is completely meaningless to
> > > >the reader.
> > > >
> > > >And that it's OK for people who tend to skip all words they don't know
> > > >the meaning of, as the sentence means the same with or without the
> > > >word.
> > > >
> > > >But not everyone skips the meaning of each & every word they don't
> > > >know. Do they?
> > > >
> > > >Even if some readers are acquainted with the term, it's still
> > > >meaningless. So why put it there - was my question.
> > > >
> > > >When I read the article, as I do will all articles that I read, I try
> > > >to understand what the person is saying - so I looked up what mild
> > > >steel was.
> > > >
> > > >Had I omnipotently known ahead of time the additional clarifying word
> > > >was intended to be meaningless in terms of the rescue, I wouldn't
> > > >have bothered to look it up, of course.
> > > >
> > > >But I don't normally expect people to insert meaningless words.
> > > >
> > > >Since the reader is presumed not to know what mild steel is, why
> > > >insert it when it doesn't change the meaning of the article in any
> > > >positive way?
> > >
> > > It wasn't inserted. The engineer said it and the Reuters article
> > > quoted what he said. To the engineer, it was a word he knew and
> > > understood to be part of the basic description.
>
> > I'm married to an engineer. There are no simple questions so unless
> > you have half an hour to spare, don't ask.
>
> > Janet
>
> I still remember a cautionary tale about using the wrong sort of steel from
> one of my university lectures over over 60 years ago.

The Titanic was made of it,

Jan

Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:22:50 +0100
> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>
> > Mack A. Damia <drsteerforth@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:56:55 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> > > Lodder) wrote:
> > >
> > > >Mack A. Damia <drsteerforth@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 20:26:48 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> > > >> Lodder) wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> Why would it matter for rescue work what kind of steel it is?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> "'The plan is to drill through the debris, put mild steel pipes in
> > > >> >> it and make a path for the labourers to move,' Ranjit Sinha, the top
> > > >> >> disaster management officer in Uttarakhand, told Reuters by phone."
> > > >> >> https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indian-workers-remain-trapped-co
llap
> > sed
> > > >-tu
> > > >> >nnel-rescue-hampered-2023-11-15/
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Since he bothered to mention the type of steel needed for a
> > > >> >> rescue, I looked it up to see why it's pertinent to the rescue
> > > >> >> mission.
> > > >> >> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/mil
d-st
> > eel
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> a type of steel containing very little carbon that is easy to
> > > >> >> shape but cannot be made stronger and harder through heating and
> > > >> >> cooling
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Probably this quote is why it's important.
> > > >> >> "Due to its excellent workability, weldability and relatively
> > > >> >> low cost"
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/what-is-mild-steel-composition-prop
erti
> > es-
> > > >den
> > > >> >sity-grades-types-uses
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> All the descriptions imply it's the most common basic cheap steel,
> > > >> >> so I'm not sure why it matters to the reader that they're using it.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Basically, it's easily worked steel.
> > > >> >> https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-mild-steel/
> > > >> >
> > > >> >The important property is malleability. Mild steel will easily deform,
> > > >> >so dent, but it will not not easily rupture, tear, or even break.
> > > >> >In an unstable environment where loose rocks falling on your pipe
> > > >> >this is an important property.
> > > >>
> > > >> Little Known Facts:
> > > >> Scientific Properties of Glass
> > > >>
> > > >> When glass shatters slivers can be found as far as ten miles away.
> > > >
> > > >Yes. And a swan can break your arm with a wingbeat.
> > >
> > > They have powers that transcend wingbeats.
> > >
> > > https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/S6oAAOSwac5hCr~g/s-l1600.jpg
>
> I have (once) eaten a Swan Vesta curry. No actual swan content.
>
> Oh dear; still available!
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vesta-Beef-Curry-236gm/dp/B00I46DJKU/

'Currently unavailable.' they say, on my version of the website.
'We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock.'

Perhaps they have decided that only the most hardened British stomachs
can handle the stuff?

> > Certainly. But why not just admit that those glass shards being found
> > ten miles away are made of bullshit?
> >
> It's a way to see who's awake, I suppose.

Not even a nuke will blow glass shards that far,

Jan

On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 4:57:01 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> It may prevent you from getting into a fit of rage,
> like PTD did when I happened to mention 'mild steel'
> some years ago, in this forum,

There's nothing wrong with my blood pressure. If you used that
term and failed to explicate it for the ignorant non-materials-engineering
masses, the shame is on you.

--
I just discovered that lurking, in the far upper right corner of the screen
of the Captcha page where no one has any reason to look, is a very pale
blue "Continue," which causes the Captcha to stop preventing me from
posting.

On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 7:34:04 AM UTC-5, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:56:55 +0100
> nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

> > It may prevent you from getting into a fit of rage,
> > like PTD did when I happened to mention 'mild steel'
> > some years ago, in this forum,
>
> Ah, it's not the same without him. It's a shame we never taught him how to
> usea proper newsreader. Maybe.
> --
> Bah, and indeed Humbug.

How kind of you to admit that!

I asked the only AUEist whose email I have to post the reason I have been
"lurking," and they refused to do so.

It had nothing to do with any of your services "blocking GG" or anything else.

--
I just discovered that lurking, in the far upper right corner of the screen
of the Captcha page where no one has any reason to look, is a very pale
blue "Continue," which causes the Captcha to stop preventing me from
posting.