Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 12/11/23 03:53, lar3ryca wrote:
> > On 2023-11-11 10:36, Stefan Ram wrote:
> >> Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> writes:
>
> >>> Speed is the time rate at which an object is moving along a path,
> >>> while velocity is the rate and direction of an object's
> >>> movement.
> >>
> >> I accept that this distinction is only made in certain technical
> >> languages, not in colloquial language. In everyday life, velocity
> >> is probably never considered a "vector", even if it is known that a
> >> movement has a certain direction.
> >
> > I also see it has a number of meanings that have nothing to do with a
> > moving object.
> >
> > a. The rate at which something acts or occurs: the velocity of
> > metabolism of glucose in muscle cells. b. The rate at which money
> > changes hands in an economy.
>
> Physics tries to describe the universe as it is, and for that purpose it
> needs precisely defined terminology. The average language user has
> little understanding of physics, so settles for fuzzier definitions.
>
> Once you get to economic theories, the connection with reality is weak
> indeed.

There it works the other way round.
Economiscts impose their reality on the world,

Jan

* (J. J. Lodder) <1qk1ww8.166asyf1mr1orlN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> :
Wrote on Sat, 11 Nov 2023 22:10:52 +0100:
> Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>> Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> >>> What is airspeed relative to?
>> >> The wind passing the object.
>> > So it has to fly faster against a headwind? Even though it won't get
>> > anywhere faster.
>> I believe that planes have fallen out of the sky because the tanks got
>> empty.
>
> That would be an incompetent pilot indeed.
> Even so, planes never 'fall out of the sky'.
> Such a pilot would have to glide. (and land or ditch)
>
>> They kept a nice (air)speed and didn't discover that they were flying
>> against a jet wind which meant that they stood fixed (more or less)
>> in relation to the earth (or the sea).
>
> Real pilots must obtain a weather forecast before taking off, which
> includes expected winds. They will adapt the amount of fuel taken to
> the expected headwinds.
>
> It does happen occasionally to unfortunate birds,
> when they are caught by unexpected strong winds
> while being away from the coast.
> Mass drownings have been recorded,
> but they are rare,

There is a biblical incident with quail in Numbers 11 (and earlier in
Exod 16:13) where the winds were involved in the mass-death of birds
(inland though)

Traditional studies seem to have focussed only on "empty" birds. I think
KM-J posted this here before http://style.org/unladenswallow/

Madhu <enometh@meer.net> wrote:

> * (J. J. Lodder) <1qk1ww8.166asyf1mr1orlN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> :
> Wrote on Sat, 11 Nov 2023 22:10:52 +0100:
> > Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >> Paul Carmichael wrote:
> >> >>> What is airspeed relative to?
> >> >> The wind passing the object.
> >> > So it has to fly faster against a headwind? Even though it won't get
> >> > anywhere faster.
> >> I believe that planes have fallen out of the sky because the tanks got
> >> empty.
> >
> > That would be an incompetent pilot indeed.
> > Even so, planes never 'fall out of the sky'.
> > Such a pilot would have to glide. (and land or ditch)
> >
> >> They kept a nice (air)speed and didn't discover that they were flying
> >> against a jet wind which meant that they stood fixed (more or less)
> >> in relation to the earth (or the sea).
> >
> > Real pilots must obtain a weather forecast before taking off, which
> > includes expected winds. They will adapt the amount of fuel taken to
> > the expected headwinds.
> >
> > It does happen occasionally to unfortunate birds,
> > when they are caught by unexpected strong winds
> > while being away from the coast.
> > Mass drownings have been recorded,
> > but they are rare,
>
> There is a biblical incident with quail in Numbers 11 (and earlier in
> Exod 16:13) where the winds were involved in the mass-death of birds
> (inland though)
>
> Traditional studies seem to have focussed only on "empty" birds. I think
> KM-J posted this here before http://style.org/unladenswallow/

But what if it carries a coconut?

Jan

lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> writes:
> On 2023-11-11 10:36, Stefan Ram wrote:
>> Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> writes:
>>> On 11/11/2023 15:44, lar3ryca wrote:
>>>> On 2023-11-11 03:10, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>>>>>> Sometimes there are French expressions that can sound a little
>>>>>> more solemn. For example, "to commence" versus "to begin".
>>>>> And we use the French (or Latin) "velocity" to indicate how fast
>>>>> and in which direction something is moving, but the Germanic (Old
>>>>> English) "speed" for the length (scalar quantity) of this velocity.
>>>>> Here, the simpler term is represented by the simpler word.
>>>> 'Velocity' does not indicate direction. It only indicated speed (a
>>>> direct synonym).
>>> Speed is the time rate at which an object is moving along a path, while
>>> velocity is the rate and direction of an object’s movement.
>>
>> I accept that this distinction is only made in certain technical
>> languages, not in colloquial language. In everyday life, velocity
>> is probably never considered a "vector", even if it is known that
>> a movement has a certain direction.
>
> I also see it has a number of meanings that have nothing to do with a
> moving object.
>
> a. The rate at which something acts or occurs: the velocity of
> metabolism of glucose in muscle cells.
> b. The rate at which money changes hands in an economy.

The "velocity" of money is a particularly fun clash with the
physics/mathematical definition of the word. Sit two people in a room,
and have them play hot-potato with a bag of loot, such that the person
who started with the money ends with it, and the economists would say
that the velocity was incredibly high, yet the physicist would say it's
zero.

Phil
--
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have
gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/

On 13-Nov-23 10:12, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Madhu <enometh@meer.net> wrote:
>
>> * (J. J. Lodder) <1qk1ww8.166asyf1mr1orlN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> :
>> Wrote on Sat, 11 Nov 2023 22:10:52 +0100:
>>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>> Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>>>>> What is airspeed relative to?
>>>>>> The wind passing the object.
>>>>> So it has to fly faster against a headwind? Even though it won't get
>>>>> anywhere faster.
>>>> I believe that planes have fallen out of the sky because the tanks got
>>>> empty.
>>>
>>> That would be an incompetent pilot indeed.
>>> Even so, planes never 'fall out of the sky'.
>>> Such a pilot would have to glide. (and land or ditch)
>>>
>>>> They kept a nice (air)speed and didn't discover that they were flying
>>>> against a jet wind which meant that they stood fixed (more or less)
>>>> in relation to the earth (or the sea).
>>>
>>> Real pilots must obtain a weather forecast before taking off, which
>>> includes expected winds. They will adapt the amount of fuel taken to
>>> the expected headwinds.
>>>
>>> It does happen occasionally to unfortunate birds,
>>> when they are caught by unexpected strong winds
>>> while being away from the coast.
>>> Mass drownings have been recorded,
>>> but they are rare,
>>
>> There is a biblical incident with quail in Numbers 11 (and earlier in
>> Exod 16:13) where the winds were involved in the mass-death of birds
>> (inland though)
>>
>> Traditional studies seem to have focussed only on "empty" birds. I think
>> KM-J posted this here before http://style.org/unladenswallow/
>
> But what if it carries a coconut?

The scientific approach surely requires us to start with a hazelnut and
gradually work our way up.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:10:18 +0530
Madhu <enometh@meer.net> wrote:

> * (J. J. Lodder) <1qk1ww8.166asyf1mr1orlN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> :
> Wrote on Sat, 11 Nov 2023 22:10:52 +0100:
> > Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >> Paul Carmichael wrote:
> >> >>> What is airspeed relative to?
> >> >> The wind passing the object.
> >> > So it has to fly faster against a headwind? Even though it won't get
> >> > anywhere faster.
> >> I believe that planes have fallen out of the sky because the tanks got
> >> empty.
> >
> > That would be an incompetent pilot indeed.
> > Even so, planes never 'fall out of the sky'.
> > Such a pilot would have to glide. (and land or ditch)
> >
> >> They kept a nice (air)speed and didn't discover that they were flying
> >> against a jet wind which meant that they stood fixed (more or less)
> >> in relation to the earth (or the sea).
> >
> > Real pilots must obtain a weather forecast before taking off, which
> > includes expected winds. They will adapt the amount of fuel taken to
> > the expected headwinds.
> >
> > It does happen occasionally to unfortunate birds,
> > when they are caught by unexpected strong winds
> > while being away from the coast.
> > Mass drownings have been recorded,
> > but they are rare,
>
> There is a biblical incident with quail in Numbers 11 (and earlier in
> Exod 16:13) where the winds were involved in the mass-death of birds
> (inland though)
>
> Traditional studies seem to have focussed only on "empty" birds. I think
> KM-J posted this here before http://style.org/unladenswallow/

I don't think it was me; but it's a good read!

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 13/11/23 21:12, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Madhu <enometh@meer.net> wrote:

>> Traditional studies seem to have focussed only on "empty" birds. I
>> think KM-J posted this here before
>> http://style.org/unladenswallow/
>
> But what if it carries a coconut?

I've told this before, but can't resist telling it again.

Some years ago, a suburb close to where I now live was being subjected
to attacks by dive-bombing frozen chickens. In some cases there was
significant roof damage. IIRC it remained a mystery for a few weeks.

It turned out that a fried chicken place was putting its left-over
frozen chickens into an open garbage bin behind the shop. Pelicans
discovered the bounty, and started carrying them away. But those
chickens are heavy. A pelican would reach a certain height, discover
that it could no longer carry the load, and let go.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW