On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 3:40:22 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> A rounabout with trafic lights is still superior to a crossing.

True.

Have you ever seen a "jughandle" turn? (Associated mainly with New
Jersey, because many of the earliest "highways" were in NJ and they
tried all sorts of things (including entrance ramps joining a "highway"
at right angles -- a few of those still exist, because there's nowhere
to put a replacement).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jughandle

....

> However, the Dutch have invented an improvement on the roundabout

of course

> to further baffle foreigners. (and initially also the Dutch themselves)
> It is the Dutch turbo roundabout.
> It has two separated lanes on the roundabout,
> with a raised separation between them.
> The straight-through and the turn-left flow can take the inner lane,

?? Why would there be any "turn-left flow" at all? The purpose
of a traffic circle is to eliminate such things.

There happens to be as huge one in Elizabeth, NJ:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Elizabeth,+NJ/@40.6508689,-74.2206103,539m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c24d5fee42051d:0x3285591b526b03ad!8m2!3d40.6639916!4d-74.2107006!16zL20vMHhzenk!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu

(Choose the "terrain" layer and the overlay of tan "through street" lines
goes away,, but I don't see how to do Satellite without the tan lines.)

> the turn right trafic takes the outer lane.
> Merging is in part downstream.
>
> I realise this is hard to understand from the description,
> but it actually works and is more efficient,
> once drivers have gotten used to it.
> The accident rates are also much olwer,
> and the accidents that do happen are less severe.
>
> Here is a boring American video explaining it
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bFjZ0sXl88>
> (to maximise PTD nuisance value)

Who, as you should know, rarely goes to video links

> Or one that just shows how it actually works at
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ocMMEyzxk>

So if you reach an unfamiliar one and choose the wrong lane, you're S.O.L.

Peter T. Daniels <petertdaniels@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 3:40:22?PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > A rounabout with trafic lights is still superior to a crossing.
>
> True.
>
> Have you ever seen a "jughandle" turn? (Associated mainly with New
> Jersey, because many of the earliest "highways" were in NJ and they
> tried all sorts of things (including entrance ramps joining a "highway"
> at right angles -- a few of those still exist, because there's nowhere
> to put a replacement).
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jughandle

The right-turning 'jug-handle' is very much used on European
roundabouts.
It short circuits the roundabout for those turning right, with merging
downstream.

> ...
>
> > However, the Dutch have invented an improvement on the roundabout
>
> of course
>
> > to further baffle foreigners. (and initially also the Dutch themselves)
> > It is the Dutch turbo roundabout.
> > It has two separated lanes on the roundabout,
> > with a raised separation between them.
> > The straight-through and the turn-left flow can take the inner lane,
>
> ?? Why would there be any "turn-left flow" at all? The purpose
> of a traffic circle is to eliminate such things.
>
> There happens to be as huge one in Elizabeth, NJ:
>
> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Elizabeth,+NJ/@40.6508689,-74.2206103,53
> 9m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c24d5fee42051d:0x3285591b526b03ad!8m2!3d40.
> 6639916!4d-74.2107006!16zL20vMHhzenk!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu
>
> (Choose the "terrain" layer and the overlay of tan "through street" lines
> goes away,, but I don't see how to do Satellite without the tan lines.)

Yes, a more primitive variant.

> > the turn right trafic takes the outer lane.
> > Merging is in part downstream.
> >
> > I realise this is hard to understand from the description,
> > but it actually works and is more efficient,
> > once drivers have gotten used to it.
> > The accident rates are also much olwer,
> > and the accidents that do happen are less severe.
> >
> > Here is a boring American video explaining it
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bFjZ0sXl88>
> > (to maximise PTD nuisance value)
>
> Who, as you should know, rarely goes to video links

OK. FYI, it is a Federal Highway Administration oficial
praising the Dutch for inventing it,
and praising international cooperation and exchange in general.
I wouldn't know how to show you without a video.

> > Or one that just shows how it actually works at
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ocMMEyzxk>
>
> So if you reach an unfamiliar one and choose the wrong lane, you're S.O.L.

If you are not sure, stick to the outer ring, and you can't go wrong.
You can go round, and round, and round again, until you know what to do,

Jan

--
"Singing a song about Molly Dee....."

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:28:41 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 3:40:22?PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > A rounabout with trafic lights is still superior to a crossing.
> > True.
> > Have you ever seen a "jughandle" turn? (Associated mainly with New
> > Jersey, because many of the earliest "highways" were in NJ and they
> > tried all sorts of things (including entrance ramps joining a "highway"
> > at right angles -- a few of those still exist, because there's nowhere
> > to put a replacement).
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jughandle

> The right-turning 'jug-handle' is very much used on European
> roundabouts.
> It short circuits the roundabout for those turning right, with merging
> downstream.

The jughandle is for turning _left_. That you can also use it to turn
right is an extra added bonus. Many of them are curved like a
cloverleaf ramp so that you can't.

> > > However, the Dutch have invented an improvement on the roundabout
> > of course
> > > to further baffle foreigners. (and initially also the Dutch themselves)
> > > It is the Dutch turbo roundabout.
> > > It has two separated lanes on the roundabout,
> > > with a raised separation between them.
> > > The straight-through and the turn-left flow can take the inner lane,
> > ?? Why would there be any "turn-left flow" at all? The purpose
> > of a traffic circle is to eliminate such things.
> > There happens to be as huge one in Elizabeth, NJ:
> > https://www.google.com/maps/place/Elizabeth,+NJ/@40.6508689,-74.2206103,53
> > 9m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c24d5fee42051d:0x3285591b526b03ad!8m2!3d40.
> > 6639916!4d-74.2107006!16zL20vMHhzenk!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu
> > (Choose the "terrain" layer and the overlay of tan "through street" lines
> > goes away,, but I don't see how to do Satellite without the tan lines.)
>
> Yes, a more primitive variant.

The original style. Your silly one is the "variant."

> > > the turn right trafic takes the outer lane.
> > > Merging is in part downstream.
> > > I realise this is hard to understand from the description,
> > > but it actually works and is more efficient,
> > > once drivers have gotten used to it.
> > > The accident rates are also much olwer,
> > > and the accidents that do happen are less severe.
> > > Here is a boring American video explaining it
> > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bFjZ0sXl88>
> > > (to maximise PTD nuisance value)
> > Who, as you should know, rarely goes to video links
>
> OK. FYI, it is a Federal Highway Administration oficial
> praising the Dutch for inventing it,

Frim the Roosevelt administration, noding to his Dutch ancestry?

> and praising international cooperation and exchange in general.
> I wouldn't know how to show you without a video.

The following one is perfectly clear.

> > > Or one that just shows how it actually works at
> > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ocMMEyzxk>
> > So if you reach an unfamiliar one and choose the wrong lane, you're S.O..L.
>
> If you are not sure, stick to the outer ring, and you can't go wrong.
> You can go round, and round, and round again, until you know what to do,

? The outer ring just keeps you heading on the road you started on.

On 19/10/23 00:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> Have you ever seen a "jughandle" turn? (Associated mainly with New
> Jersey, because many of the earliest "highways" were in NJ and they
> tried all sorts of things (including entrance ramps joining a
> "highway" at right angles -- a few of those still exist, because
> there's nowhere to put a replacement).
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jughandle

Inner-city intersections in Melbourne, Victoria, have a different
approach to this. Drivers wanting to make a right turn must pull into
the _leftmost_ lane -- which takes them out of the path of the
straight-ahead traffic behind them -- and then wait for a turn signal.

This gives a better flow to the non-turning traffic. More importantly,
the more usual form of right turn would interfere with the trams in the
centre of the road.

This used to be a problem for learner drivers in Victoria. To pass the
licence test, they had to memorise the names of all the "hook turn"
intersections in Melbourne, even if they had never been to Melbourne.
(And, in some cases, never would.)

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 4:48:41 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/10/23 00:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > Have you ever seen a "jughandle" turn? (Associated mainly with New
> > Jersey, because many of the earliest "highways" were in NJ and they
> > tried all sorts of things (including entrance ramps joining a
> > "highway" at right angles -- a few of those still exist, because
> > there's nowhere to put a replacement).
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jughandle

> Inner-city intersections in Melbourne, Victoria, have a different
> approach to this. Drivers wanting to make a right turn must pull into
> the _leftmost_ lane -- which takes them out of the path of the
> straight-ahead traffic behind them -- and then wait for a turn signal.
>
> This gives a better flow to the non-turning traffic. More importantly,
> the more usual form of right turn would interfere with the trams in the
> centre of the road.

That sounds very much like the New Jersey jughandle (with parity
reversed), though the signal may be in a different place or something.

> This used to be a problem for learner drivers in Victoria. To pass the
> licence test, they had to memorise the names of all the "hook turn"
> intersections in Melbourne, even if they had never been to Melbourne.
> (And, in some cases, never would.)

Good heavens. I've never heard of having to learn features of the street
layout to get a driver's license.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:05:40 PM UTC-6, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 4:48:41 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 19/10/23 00:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > > Have you ever seen a "jughandle" turn? (Associated mainly with New
> > > Jersey, because many of the earliest "highways" were in NJ and they
> > > tried all sorts of things (including entrance ramps joining a
> > > "highway" at right angles -- a few of those still exist, because
> > > there's nowhere to put a replacement).
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jughandle
>
> > Inner-city intersections in Melbourne, Victoria, have a different
> > approach to this. Drivers wanting to make a right turn must pull into
> > the _leftmost_ lane -- which takes them out of the path of the
> > straight-ahead traffic behind them -- and then wait for a turn signal.
> >
> > This gives a better flow to the non-turning traffic. More importantly,
> > the more usual form of right turn would interfere with the trams in the
> > centre of the road.

> That sounds very much like the New Jersey jughandle (with parity
> reversed), though the signal may be in a different place or something.
....

Checking /after/ posting, I see the difference. The "hook turn" doesn't
need any additional roadway. Cars have to stop well back from a red
light to give room for the maneuver.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 19/10/23 13:05, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 4:48:41 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan
> wrote:

>> This used to be a problem for learner drivers in Victoria. To pass
>> the licence test, they had to memorise the names of all the "hook
>> turn" intersections in Melbourne, even if they had never been to
>> Melbourne. (And, in some cases, never would.)
>
> Good heavens. I've never heard of having to learn features of the
> street layout to get a driver's license.

I never had to face that in my licence tests. I did, however, have to
memorise a lot of facts about boundaries: how close to an intersection
can you park, how far from a bus stop, etc.

I suppose those things are still part of the test. In city centres and
on major roads there are always signs to say where you may and may not
park, but not so much on suburban streets.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 4:18:41 AM UTC+5:30, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/10/23 00:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > Have you ever seen a "jughandle" turn? (Associated mainly with New
> > Jersey, because many of the earliest "highways" were in NJ and they
> > tried all sorts of things (including entrance ramps joining a
> > "highway" at right angles -- a few of those still exist, because
> > there's nowhere to put a replacement).
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jughandle
> Inner-city intersections in Melbourne, Victoria, have a different
> approach to this. Drivers wanting to make a right turn must pull into
> the _leftmost_ lane -- which takes them out of the path of the
> straight-ahead traffic behind them -- and then wait for a turn signal.
>
1) They don't stop at the intersection and wait to turn right; they drive
into the intersection blocking cross traffic and wait to turn right.
2) They don't wait for a right turn signal; they wait for the light on the
cross street to turn green; it's the same light that lets drivers on the
cross street go straight once those waiting for right turns have cleared the
intersection.
3) It's similar in principle to a jughandle exit but Jughandle is also used
to describe the shape of a wide turn spanning multiple lanes by a big rig,
a cab + trailer too big to turn from a single lane to a single lane.
>
> This gives a better flow to the non-turning traffic. More importantly,
> the more usual form of right turn would interfere with the trams in the
> centre of the road.
>
> This used to be a problem for learner drivers in Victoria. To pass the
> licence test, they had to memorise the names of all the "hook turn"
> intersections in Melbourne, even if they had never been to Melbourne.
> (And, in some cases, never would.)
> --
> Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
> Newcastle, NSW

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 6:48:41 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/10/23 00:47, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > Have you ever seen a "jughandle" turn? (Associated mainly with New
> > Jersey, because many of the earliest "highways" were in NJ and they
> > tried all sorts of things (including entrance ramps joining a
> > "highway" at right angles -- a few of those still exist, because
> > there's nowhere to put a replacement).
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jughandle
> Inner-city intersections in Melbourne, Victoria, have a different
> approach to this. Drivers wanting to make a right turn must pull into
> the _leftmost_ lane -- which takes them out of the path of the
> straight-ahead traffic behind them -- and then wait for a turn signal.
>
> This gives a better flow to the non-turning traffic. More importantly,
> the more usual form of right turn would interfere with the trams in the
> centre of the road.
>
> This used to be a problem for learner drivers in Victoria. To pass the
> licence test, they had to memorise the names of all the "hook turn"
> intersections in Melbourne, even if they had never been to Melbourne.
> (And, in some cases, never would.)

We often have a left turn lane that emerges some yards before a busy
intersection. Usually it has its own green-arrow light, which is simultaneous
with the other direction's left-turn green arrow. At T-intersections, it often
corresponds with a red light for all the oncoming traffic, which (in NJ) has
a sign next to the traffic light "delayed green." Sometimes the left-turn lane
also has a red arrow, which is used on particularly busy streets.

Here are one of each:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7742955,-74.0398544,46m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

(southbound has left turn lane with all-red, but left turn not prohibited
when green arrow isn't on)

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7616763,-74.0464864,67m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

(southbound has Delayed Green)

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7522718,-74.053016,67m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

(northbound has green arrow and red arrow; note two left turns from
that lane, at 90 deg. and at slight angle)

You _may_ be able to see the lights with Street View, but it's mostly
interested in the buildings along the sides.

On 19-Oct-23 3:44, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/10/23 13:05, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 4:48:41 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan
>> wrote:
>
>>> This used to be a problem for learner drivers in Victoria. To pass
>>> the licence test, they had to memorise the names of all the "hook
>>> turn" intersections in Melbourne, even if they had never been to
>>> Melbourne. (And, in some cases, never would.)
>>
>> Good heavens.  I've never heard of having to learn features of the
>> street layout to get a driver's license.
>
> I never had to face that in my licence tests. I did, however, have to
> memorise a lot of facts about boundaries: how close to an intersection
> can you park, how far from a bus stop, etc.
>
> I suppose those things are still part of the test. In city centres and
> on major roads there are always signs to say where you may and may not
> park, but not so much on suburban streets.
>
When I took the test, you could be asked for the stopping distance (in
yards) when travelling at x mph (where x was a multiple of 10).

There was no attempt to check if the driver had the faintest idea of
what yyy yards actually looked like.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 20/10/23 04:51, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 19-Oct-23 3:44, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 19/10/23 13:05, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 4:48:41 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> This used to be a problem for learner drivers in Victoria. To
>>>> pass the licence test, they had to memorise the names of all
>>>> the "hook turn" intersections in Melbourne, even if they had
>>>> never been to Melbourne. (And, in some cases, never would.)
>>>
>>> Good heavens. I've never heard of having to learn features of
>>> the street layout to get a driver's license.
>>
>> I never had to face that in my licence tests. I did, however, have
>> to memorise a lot of facts about boundaries: how close to an
>> intersection can you park, how far from a bus stop, etc.
>>
>> I suppose those things are still part of the test. In city centres
>> and on major roads there are always signs to say where you may and
>> may not park, but not so much on suburban streets.
>>
> When I took the test, you could be asked for the stopping distance
> (in yards) when travelling at x mph (where x was a multiple of 10).
>
> There was no attempt to check if the driver had the faintest idea of
> what yyy yards actually looked like.

I wish they would put something comparable on the NSW test.
Increasingly, I am seeing learner drivers tailgating. The supervising
person is apparently unaware that learners should be taught not to do that.

Instead of those mental calculations, though, I'd like to see learners
made to demonstrate that they can count the number of seconds between
them and the car in front. (And understand the implications of it being
a second or less.)

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:14:36 AM UTC+5:30, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/10/23 13:05, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 4:48:41 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan
> > wrote:
>
> >> This used to be a problem for learner drivers in Victoria. To pass
> >> the licence test, they had to memorise the names of all the "hook
> >> turn" intersections in Melbourne, even if they had never been to
> >> Melbourne. (And, in some cases, never would.)
> >
> > Good heavens. I've never heard of having to learn features of the
> > street layout to get a driver's license.
> I never had to face that in my licence tests. I did, however, have to
> memorise a lot of facts about boundaries: how close to an intersection
> can you park, how far from a bus stop, etc.
>
Memorizing that should not be necessary. Every hook turn has a
sign "Right turn from left lane" to tell the driver that it is one.
It also should not be necessary for a London Taxi driver to
know where 25000 streets are on a map. And a Rolls chauffeur
said his having passed a test controlling a Routemaster in a
skid caused by oil poured on the roadway to test the driver
helped him get his job. That too doesn't seem necessary. I
wonder what happens to Routemasters driven by drivers who
can't control them. Are they used buses that can be freely junked
and are there barriers to keep them from destroying anything else?
>
> I suppose those things are still part of the test. In city centres and
> on major roads there are always signs to say where you may and may not
> park, but not so much on suburban streets.
> --
> Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
> Newcastle, NSW