The Shipping forecast is a maritime weather report for the seas around
the British Isles.

A BBC Radio 4 news item today announced that it was the anniversary of
its first *broadcast* a hundred years ago.

AUE context? The broadcast is a linguistic oddity in that it has a
poetic rhythm about it, discussed here in AUE in the past. It has a
familiar (and yet impenetrable) quality to it to many in the UK. It
makes reference to shipping areas with exotic names like Rockall,
Viking, Forties, Dogger... etc. I have listened to it (between
programs) many a time. It has a soothing, soporific effect on the
listener especially late at night.

Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=sYcgK5Yjz3c

Le 02/01/2024 à 08:54, occam a écrit :
>
> The Shipping forecast is a maritime weather report for the seas around
> the British Isles.
>
> A BBC Radio 4 news item today announced that it was the anniversary of
> its first *broadcast* a hundred years ago.

A secular event for something some listen to religiously.

> AUE context? The broadcast is a linguistic oddity in that it has a
> poetic rhythm about it, discussed here in AUE in the past. It has a
> familiar (and yet impenetrable) quality to it to many in the UK. It
> makes reference to shipping areas with exotic names like Rockall,
> Viking, Forties, Dogger... etc. I have listened to it (between
> programs) many a time. It has a soothing, soporific effect on the
> listener especially late at night.
>
> Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=sYcgK5Yjz3c

It has contributed to the language. I don't think I'm the only one to
complain that a cold wind has found its way into my Faroes and Cromarties.

Or to wonder what goes on on Dogger Bank.

On Tue, 2 Jan 2024, at 09:21:35, Hibou posted:
>Le 02/01/2024 à 08:54, occam a écrit :
>>
>> The Shipping forecast is a maritime weather report for the seas around
>> the British Isles.
>> A BBC Radio 4 news item today announced that it was the anniversary
>>of
>> its first *broadcast* a hundred years ago.
>
>A secular event for something some listen to religiously.
>
>> AUE context? The broadcast is a linguistic oddity in that it has a
>> poetic rhythm about it, discussed here in AUE in the past. It has a
>> familiar (and yet impenetrable) quality to it to many in the UK. It
>> makes reference to shipping areas with exotic names like Rockall,
>> Viking, Forties, Dogger... etc. I have listened to it (between
>> programs) many a time. It has a soothing, soporific effect on the
>> listener especially late at night.
>> Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=sYcgK5Yjz3c
>
>It has contributed to the language. I don't think I'm the only one to
>complain that a cold wind has found its way into my Faroes and
>Cromarties.
>
>Or to wonder what goes on on Dogger Bank.
>
It's the bank where the wild time grows, where the wild things are. When
I have difficulty in going back to sleep in the too-early morning, I
recall life in old Doggerland, far from the cares of today. It works.
--
Paul W

On 02-Jan-24 9:21, Hibou wrote:
> Le 02/01/2024 à 08:54, occam a écrit :
>>
>> The Shipping forecast is a maritime weather report for the seas around
>> the British Isles.
>>
>> A BBC Radio 4 news item today announced that it was the anniversary of
>> its first *broadcast* a hundred years ago.
>
> A secular event for something some listen to religiously.
>
>> AUE context?  The broadcast is a linguistic oddity in  that it has a
>> poetic rhythm about it, discussed here in AUE in the past. It has a
>> familiar (and yet impenetrable) quality to it to many in the UK. It
>> makes reference to shipping areas with exotic names like Rockall,
>> Viking, Forties, Dogger... etc.  I have listened to it (between
>> programs) many a time.  It has a soothing, soporific effect on the
>> listener especially late at night.
>>
>> Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=sYcgK5Yjz3c
>
> It has contributed to the language. I don't think I'm the only one to
> complain that a cold wind has found its way into my Faroes and Cromarties.
>
> Or to wonder what goes on on Dogger Bank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dogger_Bank

Busy place, Dogger Bank.

--
Sam Plusnet

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> The Shipping forecast is a maritime weather report for the seas around
> the British Isles.
>
> A BBC Radio 4 news item today announced that it was the anniversary of
> its first *broadcast* a hundred years ago.
>
> AUE context? The broadcast is a linguistic oddity in that it has a
> poetic rhythm about it, discussed here in AUE in the past. It has a
> familiar (and yet impenetrable) quality to it to many in the UK. It
> makes reference to shipping areas with exotic names like Rockall,
> Viking, Forties, Dogger... etc. I have listened to it (between
> programs) many a time. It has a soothing, soporific effect on the
> listener especially late at night.
>
> Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=sYcgK5Yjz3c

Dutch radio had something equally soothing and soporic:
a daily broadcast of the water levels on the great rivers.
It had a fixed format:
<Placename> <level> <change in level>
like
Grave beneden de Sluis 9_28 -7
They had the most monotonous voice for it that could be found.

It was supposed to be useful to skippers,
to tell them how much load they could take.
But many others listened to it as well, for the soothing effect.
And they could wonder about those peculiar place names too.

Alas, discontinued some years ago, killed by 'Teletext', (Ceefax)
and later also by the internet.

Jan

J. J. Lodder explained on 1/3/2024 :
> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> The Shipping forecast is a maritime weather report for the seas around
>> the British Isles.
>>
>> A BBC Radio 4 news item today announced that it was the anniversary of
>> its first *broadcast* a hundred years ago.
>>
>> AUE context? The broadcast is a linguistic oddity in that it has a
>> poetic rhythm about it, discussed here in AUE in the past. It has a
>> familiar (and yet impenetrable) quality to it to many in the UK. It
>> makes reference to shipping areas with exotic names like Rockall,
>> Viking, Forties, Dogger... etc. I have listened to it (between
>> programs) many a time. It has a soothing, soporific effect on the
>> listener especially late at night.
>>
>> Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=sYcgK5Yjz3c
>
> Dutch radio had something equally soothing and soporic:
> a daily broadcast of the water levels on the great rivers.
> It had a fixed format:
> <Placename> <level> <change in level>
> like
> Grave beneden de Sluis 9_28 -7
> They had the most monotonous voice for it that could be found.
>
> It was supposed to be useful to skippers,
> to tell them how much load they could take.
> But many others listened to it as well, for the soothing effect.
> And they could wonder about those peculiar place names too.
>
> Alas, discontinued some years ago, killed by 'Teletext', (Ceefax)
> and later also by the internet.
>
> Jan

Speaking of water levels, what are the current budgets for maintaining
dykes and polders, and how is that expected to change to deal with sea
level rise?

[An author was trying to discount the panic over how much sea level
rise will cost by saying "we don't need to move millions of people away
from the tide, we can jsut copy the Dutch" (my paraphrase of the
opening paragraph)]. I don't think they were looking at the bills for
just sand replenishment on local beaches, and many of California's sea
cliffs are sandstone, which has caused problems with a local condo
complex just in the last couple of years.]

/dps

--
potstickers, Japanese gyoza, Chinese dumplings, let's do it

Snidely wrote:

> Speaking of water levels, what are the current budgets for maintaining
> dykes and polders, and how is that expected to change to deal with sea
> level rise?
>
> [An author was trying to discount the panic over how much sea level
> rise will cost by saying "we don't need to move millions of people away
> from the tide, we can jsut copy the Dutch" (my paraphrase of the
> opening paragraph)]. I don't think they were looking at the bills for
> just sand replenishment on local beaches, and many of California's sea
> cliffs are sandstone, which has caused problems with a local condo
> complex just in the last couple of years.]

Is there sand enough available in the world for such a project?

Aside:

Today I watched the Danish news. A couple of months ago we had hich
waters where many houses were damaged. In the news we heard about a man
who had just finished repairs from that. His house was once again filled
with water - knee-high I think. he was ready to repair the new damages.

I couldn't help wondering why he didn't choose a drastic solution -
raised the house or protected it somehow. It's probably not the last
time something like that will happen.

--
Bertel, Denmark

On 2024-01-03 22:52:31 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:

> Snidely wrote:
>
>> Speaking of water levels, what are the current budgets for maintaining
>> dykes and polders, and how is that expected to change to deal with sea
>> level rise?
>>
>> [An author was trying to discount the panic over how much sea level
>> rise will cost by saying "we don't need to move millions of people away
>> from the tide, we can jsut copy the Dutch" (my paraphrase of the
>> opening paragraph)]. I don't think they were looking at the bills for
>> just sand replenishment on local beaches, and many of California's sea
>> cliffs are sandstone, which has caused problems with a local condo
>> complex just in the last couple of years.]
>
> Is there sand enough available in the world for such a project?
>
> Aside:
>
> Today I watched the Danish news. A couple of months ago we had hich
> waters where many houses were damaged. In the news we heard about a man
> who had just finished repairs from that. His house was once again filled
> with water - knee-high I think. he was ready to repair the new damages.

There are a lot of problems of that sort in the region of Calais at the
moment. Some people have been flooded three or four times since
October. One of the most affected rivers is the Aa -- it's hard to
imagine that any other river could precede it in an alphabetical list
of rivers, unless there is a river A somewhere.
>
> I couldn't help wondering why he didn't choose a drastic solution -
> raised the house or protected it somehow. It's probably not the last
> time something like that will happen.

--
Athel cb

Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:

> J. J. Lodder explained on 1/3/2024 :
> > occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >
> >> The Shipping forecast is a maritime weather report for the seas around
> >> the British Isles.
> >>
> >> A BBC Radio 4 news item today announced that it was the anniversary of
> >> its first *broadcast* a hundred years ago.
> >>
> >> AUE context? The broadcast is a linguistic oddity in that it has a
> >> poetic rhythm about it, discussed here in AUE in the past. It has a
> >> familiar (and yet impenetrable) quality to it to many in the UK. It
> >> makes reference to shipping areas with exotic names like Rockall,
> >> Viking, Forties, Dogger... etc. I have listened to it (between
> >> programs) many a time. It has a soothing, soporific effect on the
> >> listener especially late at night.
> >>
> >> Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=sYcgK5Yjz3c
> >
> > Dutch radio had something equally soothing and soporic:
> > a daily broadcast of the water levels on the great rivers.
> > It had a fixed format:
> > <Placename> <level> <change in level>
> > like
> > Grave beneden de Sluis 9_28 -7
> > They had the most monotonous voice for it that could be found.
> >
> > It was supposed to be useful to skippers,
> > to tell them how much load they could take.
> > But many others listened to it as well, for the soothing effect.
> > And they could wonder about those peculiar place names too.
> >
> > Alas, discontinued some years ago, killed by 'Teletext', (Ceefax)
> > and later also by the internet.
> >
> > Jan
>
> Speaking of water levels, what are the current budgets for maintaining
> dykes and polders, and how is that expected to change to deal with sea
> level rise?

Looking things up: RWS, (Rijkswaterstaat) the agency that deals with all
infratructure at the national level,
has an anual budget of about 5 billion. (euros of course)
That is about 1000 euro/houshold.
This covers all, the main dykes, (rivers and sea)
but also the highway system. So easily supportable.

> [An author was trying to discount the panic over how much sea level
> rise will cost by saying "we don't need to move millions of people away
> from the tide, we can jsut copy the Dutch" (my paraphrase of the
> opening paragraph)].

Yes, I know, and this is a downright stupid attitude to take.
Conditions are different, in other places. [1]
What works in one place may be impossible in another.

> I don't think they were looking at the bills for
> just sand replenishment on local beaches, and many of California's sea
> cliffs are sandstone, which has caused problems with a local condo
> complex just in the last couple of years.]

Sand replenishment is modest, in cost.
Dutch policy is to replenish the whole coastline
to keep up with sea level rise, and that is easily affordable. (as yet)

Other places are less fortunate. You can find lots of BBC footage
of houses, or even whole villages being lost by cliff erosion.
The Brits have decided, correctly I think, that defending those cliffs
is not an economically viable proposition.
I don't know about California cliffs, but the same may apply,

Jan

[1] BTW, the US and the Dutch are not ignorant about each other.
The responsible agencies, US ACE, and NL RWS do have collaborations.
(on the level of exchange of knowledge)

On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 19:53:53 +0000
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> On 02-Jan-24 9:21, Hibou wrote:
> > Le 02/01/2024 à 08:54, occam a écrit :
> >>
> >> The Shipping forecast is a maritime weather report for the seas around
> >> the British Isles.
> >>
> >> A BBC Radio 4 news item today announced that it was the anniversary of
> >> its first *broadcast* a hundred years ago.
> >
> > A secular event for something some listen to religiously.
> >
> >> AUE context?  The broadcast is a linguistic oddity in  that it has a
> >> poetic rhythm about it, discussed here in AUE in the past. It has a
> >> familiar (and yet impenetrable) quality to it to many in the UK. It
> >> makes reference to shipping areas with exotic names like Rockall,
> >> Viking, Forties, Dogger... etc.  I have listened to it (between
> >> programs) many a time.  It has a soothing, soporific effect on the
> >> listener especially late at night.
> >>
> >> Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=sYcgK5Yjz3c
> >
> > It has contributed to the language. I don't think I'm the only one to
> > complain that a cold wind has found its way into my Faroes and Cromarties.
> >
> > Or to wonder what goes on on Dogger Bank.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dogger_Bank
>
> Busy place, Dogger Bank.
>
Did you know there's a very interesting hole in it? </Reg Smeaton>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silverpit_crater

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 2024-01-03 22:52:31 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:
>
> > Snidely wrote:
> >
> >> Speaking of water levels, what are the current budgets for maintaining
> >> dykes and polders, and how is that expected to change to deal with sea
> >> level rise?
> >>
> >> [An author was trying to discount the panic over how much sea level
> >> rise will cost by saying "we don't need to move millions of people away
> >> from the tide, we can jsut copy the Dutch" (my paraphrase of the
> >> opening paragraph)]. I don't think they were looking at the bills for
> >> just sand replenishment on local beaches, and many of California's sea
> >> cliffs are sandstone, which has caused problems with a local condo
> >> complex just in the last couple of years.]
> >
> > Is there sand enough available in the world for such a project?

No!

> > Aside:
> >
> > Today I watched the Danish news. A couple of months ago we had hich
> > waters where many houses were damaged. In the news we heard about a man
> > who had just finished repairs from that. His house was once again filled
> > with water - knee-high I think. he was ready to repair the new damages.
>
> There are a lot of problems of that sort in the region of Calais at the
> moment. Some people have been flooded three or four times since
> October. One of the most affected rivers is the Aa -- it's hard to
> imagine that any other river could precede it in an alphabetical list
> of rivers, unless there is a river A somewhere.

There is. Groningen has the river Aa, in modern spelling just A.
It is world famous, in the Netherlands, because there is an Akerk,
(also spelled A-Kerk) and hence an Akerkhof.
(pronounce A-kerk-hof)

The Akerkhof is one of the streets you can buy in Dutch Monopoly.
So all the kiddies knew about the Akerkhof,
without having any idea where this was.
All the fault of the Germans.
Before WWII the Dutch played Monopoly
with the English version of the game.
In 1940 the German occupation authorities decreed
that this was no longer allowed,
and that a Dutch version had to be made, with Dutch streets.
This version was kept after the war.
No idea if the kiddies still play it,
in these computerised times,

Jan

BTW, it is the same name, from Old Dutch Aa, meaning just water.
Local dialect Aa -> Abbe, hence Abbeville.
Denmark has an Å too. It sorts before Aa but after A.

On 04/01/2024 12:00, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-01-03 22:52:31 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:
>>
>>> Snidely wrote:
>>>
>>>> Speaking of water levels, what are the current budgets for maintaining
>>>> dykes and polders, and how is that expected to change to deal with sea
>>>> level rise?
>>>>
>>>> [An author was trying to discount the panic over how much sea level
>>>> rise will cost by saying "we don't need to move millions of people away
>>>> from the tide, we can jsut copy the Dutch" (my paraphrase of the
>>>> opening paragraph)]. I don't think they were looking at the bills for
>>>> just sand replenishment on local beaches, and many of California's sea
>>>> cliffs are sandstone, which has caused problems with a local condo
>>>> complex just in the last couple of years.]
>>>
>>> Is there sand enough available in the world for such a project?
>
> No!
>
>>> Aside:
>>>
>>> Today I watched the Danish news. A couple of months ago we had hich
>>> waters where many houses were damaged. In the news we heard about a man
>>> who had just finished repairs from that. His house was once again filled
>>> with water - knee-high I think. he was ready to repair the new damages.
>>
>> There are a lot of problems of that sort in the region of Calais at the
>> moment. Some people have been flooded three or four times since
>> October. One of the most affected rivers is the Aa -- it's hard to
>> imagine that any other river could precede it in an alphabetical list
>> of rivers, unless there is a river A somewhere.
>
> There is. Groningen has the river Aa, in modern spelling just A.
> It is world famous, in the Netherlands, because there is an Akerk,
> (also spelled A-Kerk) and hence an Akerkhof.
> (pronounce A-kerk-hof)
>
> The Akerkhof is one of the streets you can buy in Dutch Monopoly.
> So all the kiddies knew about the Akerkhof,
> without having any idea where this was.
> All the fault of the Germans.
> Before WWII the Dutch played Monopoly
> with the English version of the game.
> In 1940 the German occupation authorities decreed
> that this was no longer allowed,

Let's be thankful their occupation did not extend to the UK. Otherwise
we would all be playing with Berlin based Monopoly, with 'Parkstrasse' ,
'Scholssallee' and DM as currency.

> and that a Dutch version had to be made, with Dutch streets.
> This version was kept after the war.

Just out of interest, has the currency of the Dutch version been changed
to EUR or is it still Guilders?

> No idea if the kiddies still play it,
> in these computerised times,
>
> Jan
>
> BTW, it is the same name, from Old Dutch Aa, meaning just water.
> Local dialect Aa -> Abbe, hence Abbeville.
> Denmark has an Å too. It sorts before Aa but after A.

J. J. Lodder wrote:

> The Akerkhof is one of the streets you can buy in Dutch Monopoly.
> So all the kiddies knew about the Akerkhof,
> without having any idea where this was.
> All the fault of the Germans.
> Before WWII the Dutch played Monopoly
> with the English version of the game.
> In 1940 the German occupation authorities decreed
> that this was no longer allowed,
> and that a Dutch version had to be made, with Dutch streets.
> This version was kept after the war.
> No idea if the kiddies still play it,
> in these computerised times,

My grandsons play ordinary Monopoly and a special version of the game.
We played the special game on Christmas Eve.

> BTW, it is the same name, from Old Dutch Aa, meaning just water.
> Local dialect Aa -> Abbe, hence Abbeville.
> Denmark has an Å too. It sorts before Aa but after A.

Sorting aa in Danish is special. It usually is the old version of å and
is therefore placed after å. Exceptions are "kraal" and "afrikaans" plus
the cases where two a's meet in a compound word.

[English alphabet] æ ø å aa

--
Bertel, Denmark

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> On 04/01/2024 12:00, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2024-01-03 22:52:31 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:
> >>
> >>> Snidely wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Speaking of water levels, what are the current budgets for maintaining
> >>>> dykes and polders, and how is that expected to change to deal with sea
> >>>> level rise?
> >>>>
> >>>> [An author was trying to discount the panic over how much sea level
> >>>> rise will cost by saying "we don't need to move millions of people away
> >>>> from the tide, we can jsut copy the Dutch" (my paraphrase of the
> >>>> opening paragraph)]. I don't think they were looking at the bills for
> >>>> just sand replenishment on local beaches, and many of California's sea
> >>>> cliffs are sandstone, which has caused problems with a local condo
> >>>> complex just in the last couple of years.]
> >>>
> >>> Is there sand enough available in the world for such a project?
> >
> > No!
> >
> >>> Aside:
> >>>
> >>> Today I watched the Danish news. A couple of months ago we had hich
> >>> waters where many houses were damaged. In the news we heard about a man
> >>> who had just finished repairs from that. His house was once again filled
> >>> with water - knee-high I think. he was ready to repair the new damages.
> >>
> >> There are a lot of problems of that sort in the region of Calais at the
> >> moment. Some people have been flooded three or four times since
> >> October. One of the most affected rivers is the Aa -- it's hard to
> >> imagine that any other river could precede it in an alphabetical list
> >> of rivers, unless there is a river A somewhere.
> >
> > There is. Groningen has the river Aa, in modern spelling just A.
> > It is world famous, in the Netherlands, because there is an Akerk,
> > (also spelled A-Kerk) and hence an Akerkhof.
> > (pronounce A-kerk-hof)
> >
> > The Akerkhof is one of the streets you can buy in Dutch Monopoly.
> > So all the kiddies knew about the Akerkhof,
> > without having any idea where this was.
> > All the fault of the Germans.
> > Before WWII the Dutch played Monopoly
> > with the English version of the game.
> > In 1940 the German occupation authorities decreed
> > that this was no longer allowed,
>
> Let's be thankful their occupation did not extend to the UK. Otherwise
> we would all be playing with Berlin based Monopoly, with 'Parkstrasse' ,
> 'Scholssallee' and DM as currency.

The Dutch version is special.
Standard Monopoly has all the streets from one town.
New York, London, etc.
The Dutch version has streets in groups of two or three
from different towns.
(Arnhem, Haarlem, Utrecht, Groningen, Den Haag, Rotterdam, Amsterdam)

The choice of towns is peculiar too. The game was marketed originally
by the British Perry chain. The towns in Dutch Monopoly
are those towns where Perry had a shop.
Only the cheapest first two streets are fictional.
(presumably no town would have wanted to be the cheapest in the land)

> > and that a Dutch version had to be made, with Dutch streets.
> > This version was kept after the war.
>
> Just out of interest, has the currency of the Dutch version been changed
> to EUR or is it still Guilders?

The currency doesn't have a unit on the Monopoly banknotes.
In the rules the Fl symbol, and later the € is used.
Some later versions have amounts multiplied by 10, or 100,
so you get 20 000 instead of 200.
AFAIK the latest fashion is to prefer 'classic' versions,
which have the original amounts. (but still called euros)

Jan

Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > The Akerkhof is one of the streets you can buy in Dutch Monopoly.
> > So all the kiddies knew about the Akerkhof,
> > without having any idea where this was.
> > All the fault of the Germans.
> > Before WWII the Dutch played Monopoly
> > with the English version of the game.
> > In 1940 the German occupation authorities decreed
> > that this was no longer allowed,
> > and that a Dutch version had to be made, with Dutch streets.
> > This version was kept after the war.
> > No idea if the kiddies still play it,
> > in these computerised times,
>
> My grandsons play ordinary Monopoly and a special version of the game.
> We played the special game on Christmas Eve.
>
> > BTW, it is the same name, from Old Dutch Aa, meaning just water.
> > Local dialect Aa -> Abbe, hence Abbeville.
> > Denmark has an Å too. It sorts before Aa but after A.
>
> Sorting aa in Danish is special. It usually is the old version of å and
> is therefore placed after å. Exceptions are "kraal" and "afrikaans" plus
> the cases where two a's meet in a compound word.
>
> [English alphabet] æ ø å aa

Whatever. Everything sorts behind plain A,
even in Danish,

Jan

occam hat am 04.01.2024 um 12:20 geschrieben:
> Let's be thankful their occupation did not extend to the UK. Otherwise
> we would all be playing with Berlin based Monopoly, with 'Parkstrasse' ,
> 'Scholssallee' and DM as currency.

Schlossallee, please. Schloßallee until the orthographic reform of 1996,
still written this way by older opponents of that reform like "our" Stefan.
For those who don't know that letter, ß is a special form of "ss".
Nothing to do with the SS. More details here:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F>

And a Happy New Year from here. Until which day in January do you still
wish a Happy New Year the first time you meet someone or write them a
letter, e-mail or posting? Any differences among English-speaking countries?

Le 04/01/2024 à 11:00, J. J. Lodder a écrit :
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> There are a lot of problems of that sort in the region of Calais at the
>> moment. Some people have been flooded three or four times since
>> October. One of the most affected rivers is the Aa -- it's hard to
>> imagine that any other river could precede it in an alphabetical list
>> of rivers, unless there is a river A somewhere.
>
> There is. Groningen has the river Aa, in modern spelling just A.
> It is world famous, in the Netherlands, because there is an Akerk,
> (also spelled A-Kerk) and hence an Akerkhof.
> (pronounce A-kerk-hof) [...]
>
> BTW, it is the same name, from Old Dutch Aa, meaning just water.
> Local dialect Aa -> Abbe, hence Abbeville.
> Denmark has an Å too. It sorts before Aa but after A.

Ah! Or indeed aa! I'd been wondering about the name.

On 2024-01-04 11:00:24 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-01-03 22:52:31 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:
>>
>>> Snidely wrote:
>>>
>>>> Speaking of water levels, what are the current budgets for maintaining
>>>> dykes and polders, and how is that expected to change to deal with sea
>>>> level rise?
>>>>
>>>> [An author was trying to discount the panic over how much sea level
>>>> rise will cost by saying "we don't need to move millions of people away
>>>> from the tide, we can jsut copy the Dutch" (my paraphrase of the
>>>> opening paragraph)]. I don't think they were looking at the bills for
>>>> just sand replenishment on local beaches, and many of California's sea
>>>> cliffs are sandstone, which has caused problems with a local condo
>>>> complex just in the last couple of years.]
>>>
>>> Is there sand enough available in the world for such a project?
>
> No!
>
>>> Aside:
>>>
>>> Today I watched the Danish news. A couple of months ago we had hich
>>> waters where many houses were damaged. In the news we heard about a man
>>> who had just finished repairs from that. His house was once again filled
>>> with water - knee-high I think. he was ready to repair the new damages.
>>
>> There are a lot of problems of that sort in the region of Calais at the
>> moment. Some people have been flooded three or four times since
>> October. One of the most affected rivers is the Aa -- it's hard to
>> imagine that any other river could precede it in an alphabetical list
>> of rivers, unless there is a river A somewhere.
>
> There is. Groningen has the river Aa, in modern spelling just A.
> It is world famous, in the Netherlands, because there is an Akerk,
> (also spelled A-Kerk) and hence an Akerkhof.
> (pronounce A-kerk-hof)
>
> The Akerkhof is one of the streets you can buy in Dutch Monopoly.
> So all the kiddies knew about the Akerkhof,
> without having any idea where this was.
> All the fault of the Germans.
> Before WWII the Dutch played Monopoly
> with the English version of the game.
> In 1940 the German occupation authorities decreed
> that this was no longer allowed,
> and that a Dutch version had to be made, with Dutch streets.
> This version was kept after the war.
> No idea if the kiddies still play it,
> in these computerised times,
>
> Jan
>
> BTW, it is the same name, from Old Dutch Aa, meaning just water.
> Local dialect Aa -> Abbe, hence Abbeville.
> Denmark has an Å too. It sorts before Aa but after A.

Hmm. Except that in Danish Å comes at the end of the alphabet, i.e.
after Z, Æ and Ø. (One of our Danish colleagues can correct me if I'm
wrong).

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

In article <un6f9u$3m9gc$1@dont-email.me>,
Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it says...
>
> occam hat am 04.01.2024 um 12:20 geschrieben:
> > Let's be thankful their occupation did not extend to the UK. Otherwise
> > we would all be playing with Berlin based Monopoly, with 'Parkstrasse' ,
> > 'Scholssallee' and DM as currency.
>
> Schlossallee, please. Schloßallee until the orthographic reform of 1996,
> still written this way by older opponents of that reform like "our" Stefan.
> For those who don't know that letter, ß is a special form of "ss".
> Nothing to do with the SS. More details here:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F>
>
> And a Happy New Year from here. Until which day in January do you still
> wish a Happy New Year the first time you meet someone or write them a
> letter, e-mail or posting? Any differences among English-speaking countries?

Till about mid-January, no special date. Someone just
wished me Happy New Year today as she walked by; I only
know her by sight but we hadn't crossed paths since
autumn.

Janet

On 2024-01-04 16:36:12 +0000, Janet said:

> In article <un6f9u$3m9gc$1@dont-email.me>,
> Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it says...
>>
>> occam hat am 04.01.2024 um 12:20 geschrieben:
>>> Let's be thankful their occupation did not extend to the UK. Otherwise
>>> we would all be playing with Berlin based Monopoly, with 'Parkstrasse' ,
>>> 'Scholssallee' and DM as currency.
>>
>> Schlossallee, please. Schloßallee until the orthographic reform of 1996,
>> still written this way by older opponents of that reform like "our" Stefan.
>> For those who don't know that letter, ß is a special form of "ss".
>> Nothing to do with the SS. More details here:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F>
>>
>> And a Happy New Year from here. Until which day in January do you still
>> wish a Happy New Year the first time you meet someone or write them a
>> letter, e-mail or posting? Any differences among English-speaking countries?
>
> Till about mid-January, no special date. Someone just
> wished me Happy New Year today as she walked by; I only
> know her by sight but we hadn't crossed paths since
> autumn.

Not an English-speaking country, but today we went to have lunch at the
CNRS for the first time since before Christmas: at least four people
came over to wish us a Happy New Year and give us kisses (on the
cheek!). I think it can go on until the end of January. We'll see.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 04-Jan-24 9:56, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 19:53:53 +0000
> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 02-Jan-24 9:21, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 02/01/2024 à 08:54, occam a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> The Shipping forecast is a maritime weather report for the seas around
>>>> the British Isles.
>>>>
>>>> A BBC Radio 4 news item today announced that it was the anniversary of
>>>> its first *broadcast* a hundred years ago.
>>>
>>> A secular event for something some listen to religiously.
>>>
>>>> AUE context?  The broadcast is a linguistic oddity in  that it has a
>>>> poetic rhythm about it, discussed here in AUE in the past. It has a
>>>> familiar (and yet impenetrable) quality to it to many in the UK. It
>>>> makes reference to shipping areas with exotic names like Rockall,
>>>> Viking, Forties, Dogger... etc.  I have listened to it (between
>>>> programs) many a time.  It has a soothing, soporific effect on the
>>>> listener especially late at night.
>>>>
>>>> Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=sYcgK5Yjz3c
>>>
>>> It has contributed to the language. I don't think I'm the only one to
>>> complain that a cold wind has found its way into my Faroes and Cromarties.
>>>
>>> Or to wonder what goes on on Dogger Bank.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dogger_Bank
>>
>> Busy place, Dogger Bank.
>>
> Did you know there's a very interesting hole in it? </Reg Smeaton>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silverpit_crater

I didn't. Thanks for that.

--
Sam Plusnet

Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

> Le 04/01/2024 à 11:00, J. J. Lodder a écrit :
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>
> >> There are a lot of problems of that sort in the region of Calais at the
> >> moment. Some people have been flooded three or four times since
> >> October. One of the most affected rivers is the Aa -- it's hard to
> >> imagine that any other river could precede it in an alphabetical list
> >> of rivers, unless there is a river A somewhere.
> >
> > There is. Groningen has the river Aa, in modern spelling just A.
> > It is world famous, in the Netherlands, because there is an Akerk,
> > (also spelled A-Kerk) and hence an Akerkhof.
> > (pronounce A-kerk-hof) [...]
> >
> > BTW, it is the same name, from Old Dutch Aa, meaning just water.
> > Local dialect Aa -> Abbe, hence Abbeville.
> > Denmark has an Å too. It sorts before Aa but after A.
>
> Ah! Or indeed aa! I'd been wondering about the name.

It is sometimes useful to remember that the 'proto-Dutch' part of France
extended all the way to the Somme, down in the Dark Ages.
Not just in Flemish propaganda,
but in the realities of the way people spoke.

You find 'Flemish-like' placenames, eh, well, all over the place.
Twelve centuries of pushing back did have an effect,

Jan

On 04/01/24 09:52, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Snidely wrote:
>
>> Speaking of water levels, what are the current budgets for
>> maintaining dykes and polders, and how is that expected to change
>> to deal with sea level rise?
>>
>> [An author was trying to discount the panic over how much sea
>> level rise will cost by saying "we don't need to move millions of
>> people away from the tide, we can jsut copy the Dutch" (my
>> paraphrase of the opening paragraph)]. I don't think they were
>> looking at the bills for just sand replenishment on local beaches,
>> and many of California's sea cliffs are sandstone, which has caused
>> problems with a local condo complex just in the last couple of
>> years.]
>
> Is there sand enough available in the world for such a project?

Sand replenishment works only if you solve the underlying problem, for
example by building a seawall.

A current political problem in Newcastle is the disappearance of
Stockton Beach. (Stockton is a coastal suburb.) After several years the
state government is procrastinating over tackling the problem,
presumably because Stockton is not in a marginal electorate. Meanwhile
an old garbage dump (that nobody knew about) has been opened up by the
waves, creating marine pollution; a child care centre has had to be
closed before it fell into the ocean; a popular tourist camping site has
had to be closed for the same reason; and so on.

The solution preferred by the government is to spend millions on
dredging up sand and dumping it on the beach. The amount of sand to be
dumped is equal to the amount lost in six months. Nobody seems to be
asking what will be done six months later.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 04/01/24 09:52, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> > Snidely wrote:
> >
> >> Speaking of water levels, what are the current budgets for
> >> maintaining dykes and polders, and how is that expected to change
> >> to deal with sea level rise?
> >>
> >> [An author was trying to discount the panic over how much sea
> >> level rise will cost by saying "we don't need to move millions of
> >> people away from the tide, we can jsut copy the Dutch" (my
> >> paraphrase of the opening paragraph)]. I don't think they were
> >> looking at the bills for just sand replenishment on local beaches,
> >> and many of California's sea cliffs are sandstone, which has caused
> >> problems with a local condo complex just in the last couple of
> >> years.]
> >
> > Is there sand enough available in the world for such a project?
>
> Sand replenishment works only if you solve the underlying problem, for
> example by building a seawall.

All to often the seawall is the cause of the problem, not the solution.
-The- notorious example is Galveston, Texas.
Once they had a very wide beach, and a booming ressort business.
Wide enough to have auto races.
Then they had a hurricane, and a flood. (in 1900)
Then they decided they wanted a seawall, against future floods,
and they built just that.
Now they have a seawall, and hardly any beach left.
And Galveston has been overtaken by Houston as the major city.

> A current political problem in Newcastle is the disappearance of
> Stockton Beach. (Stockton is a coastal suburb.) After several years the
> state government is procrastinating over tackling the problem,
> presumably because Stockton is not in a marginal electorate. Meanwhile
> an old garbage dump (that nobody knew about) has been opened up by the
> waves, creating marine pollution; a child care centre has had to be
> closed before it fell into the ocean; a popular tourist camping site has
> had to be closed for the same reason; and so on.
>
> The solution preferred by the government is to spend millions on
> dredging up sand and dumping it on the beach. The amount of sand to be
> dumped is equal to the amount lost in six months. Nobody seems to be
> asking what will be done six months later.

Sand replenishment can work only in a situation of near equilibrium.
In front of a seawall it is probably hopeless to begin with.

Maybe they should call in some Dutch expertise?

Jan

On 05/01/24 21:15, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 04/01/24 09:52, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> Snidely wrote:
>>>
>>>> Speaking of water levels, what are the current budgets for
>>>> maintaining dykes and polders, and how is that expected to
>>>> change to deal with sea level rise?
>>>>
>>>> [An author was trying to discount the panic over how much sea
>>>> level rise will cost by saying "we don't need to move millions
>>>> of people away from the tide, we can jsut copy the Dutch" (my
>>>> paraphrase of the opening paragraph)]. I don't think they
>>>> were looking at the bills for just sand replenishment on local
>>>> beaches, and many of California's sea cliffs are sandstone,
>>>> which has caused problems with a local condo complex just in
>>>> the last couple of years.]
>>>
>>> Is there sand enough available in the world for such a project?
>>
>> Sand replenishment works only if you solve the underlying problem,
>> for example by building a seawall.
>
> All to often the seawall is the cause of the problem, not the
> solution. -The- notorious example is Galveston, Texas. Once they had
> a very wide beach, and a booming ressort business. Wide enough to
> have auto races. Then they had a hurricane, and a flood. (in 1900)
> Then they decided they wanted a seawall, against future floods, and
> they built just that. Now they have a seawall, and hardly any beach
> left. And Galveston has been overtaken by Houston as the major city.
>
>> A current political problem in Newcastle is the disappearance of
>> Stockton Beach. (Stockton is a coastal suburb.) After several years
>> the state government is procrastinating over tackling the problem,
>> presumably because Stockton is not in a marginal electorate.
>> Meanwhile an old garbage dump (that nobody knew about) has been
>> opened up by the waves, creating marine pollution; a child care
>> centre has had to be closed before it fell into the ocean; a
>> popular tourist camping site has had to be closed for the same
>> reason; and so on.
>>
>> The solution preferred by the government is to spend millions on
>> dredging up sand and dumping it on the beach. The amount of sand to
>> be dumped is equal to the amount lost in six months. Nobody seems
>> to be asking what will be done six months later.
>
> Sand replenishment can work only in a situation of near equilibrium.
> In front of a seawall it is probably hopeless to begin with.
>
> Maybe they should call in some Dutch expertise?

It's almost always possible to find experts. Getting politicians to
listen to them is the hard part.

I left out one important detail. At the entrance to Newcastle Harbour
there are two artificial breakwaters, one on each side. That's not so
unusual; breakwaters make it easier for ships to enter and leave a
harbour. (Before they were built, there were lots of shipwrecks near the
harbour.) On the south side of the southern breakwall there is a long
sandy beach that wasn't there before the breakwall was built. On the
north side of the northern breakwall, where Stockton is, the beach is
being washed away, and so is some of the land.

Even Blind Freddy can see what is going on here. The breakwalls have
altered the ocean currents. The best solution would be to construct some
new structures, a little offshore, that introduced compensatory changes
to the currents. I don't know how to do that, but we certainly have
experts who do know how to do it. Modelling ocean currents is not an
unknown art.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW