Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"

Later:

"Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
(25 miles) from the French capital."

25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163

What were the writers thinking?

On 2023-12-26 00:47, occam wrote:
> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"

When I follow your link, I get the headline:

"France murders: Man held after mother and children killed in Meaux"

> Later:
>
> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
> (25 miles) from the French capital."

and I get:

"An investigation began after their five bodies were found in a flat in
Meaux, 40km (25 miles) north-east of Paris."

The only instance of "suburb" is:

"In late November, a 41-year-old man confessed to killing his three
daughters, aged four, 10 and 11, and turned himself in. Police found
them dead in his home in the town of Alfortville, in the south-eastern
suburbs of the capital"

Alfotville is definitely a suburb.

> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>
> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>
> What were the writers thinking?

Were they corrected after you read it? Do I get a different version than
you?

--
Sometimes I want to go back in time and punch myself in the face.

In article <kuvb87Fmcq8U1@mid.individual.net>,
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>
>Later:
>
>"Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
>(25 miles) from the French capital."
>
>25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
>by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
>is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.

I suppose any commune in Ile-de-France region could in some sense be
described as a "suburb of Paris".

>What were the writers thinking?

Perhaps the subeditor was an American. Hereabouts, the suburbs
(="bedroom communities") extend along transportation routes until you
run into the next urb. The Census has a functional definition (they
don't use the words "suburb" or "exurb" explicitly), based on
commuting patterns,[1] although I suppose that's going to have to be
revised in time for the next one.

-GAWollman

[1] Not looking it up right now, but it has to do with whether a
plurality of a community's residents work in a nearby larger city than
work locally. That's obviously being a bit stretched by remote work,
with people commuting both less (because not working in an office five
days a week) and more (because with fewer days in the office some
people will choose to live farther out).
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On Tuesday, December 26, 2023 at 9:58:03 AM UTC-7, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <kuvb87...@mid.individual.net>,
> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
> >
> >Later:
> >
> >"Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
> >(25 miles) from the French capital."
> >
> >25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
> >by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
> >is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
> I suppose any commune in Ile-de-France region could in some sense be
> described as a "suburb of Paris".
> >What were the writers thinking?
> Perhaps the subeditor was an American. Hereabouts, the suburbs
> (="bedroom communities") extend along transportation routes until you
> run into the next urb. The Census has a functional definition (they
> don't use the words "suburb" or "exurb" explicitly), based on
> commuting patterns,[1] although I suppose that's going to have to be
> revised in time for the next one.
>
> -GAWollman

I might favor something about going to the city more than once, or
maybe twice, a week.

> [1] Not looking it up right now, but it has to do with whether a
> plurality of a community's residents work in a nearby larger city than
> work locally. That's obviously being a bit stretched by remote work,
> with people commuting both less (because not working in an office five
> days a week) and more (because with fewer days in the office some
> people will choose to live farther out).

Then there are other difficulties. I *think* more people in my town work
in Los Alamos (about 20 miles west) than in Santa Fe (about 30 miles
south), but I'm not sure.

--
Jerry Friedman

wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) writes:
>I suppose any commune in Ile-de-France region could in some sense be
>described as a "suburb of Paris".

The French Wikipedia page says, among other definitions, about
the French term "banlieue": "The term refers to an area that is
not as densely populated as the city center but is more densely
populated than a rural area.", I guess "area that is more
densely populated due to a nearby city" (made up by me) is a
broad meaning that doesn't require direct proximity to the city.

On 2023-12-26 16:57:58 +0000, Garrett Wollman said:

> In article <kuvb87Fmcq8U1@mid.individual.net>,
> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>>
>> Later:
>>
>> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
>> (25 miles) from the French capital."
>>
>> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
>> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
>> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>
> I suppose any commune in Ile-de-France region could in some sense be
> described as a "suburb of Paris".
>
>> What were the writers thinking?
>
> Perhaps the subeditor was an American. Hereabouts, the suburbs
> (="bedroom communities") extend along transportation routes until you
> run into the next urb. The Census has a functional definition (they
> don't use the words "suburb" or "exurb" explicitly), based on
> commuting patterns,[1] although I suppose that's going to have to be
> revised in time for the next one.
>
> -GAWollman
>
> [1] Not looking it up right now, but it has to do with whether a
> plurality of a community's residents work in a nearby larger city than
> work locally. That's obviously being a bit stretched by remote work,
> with people commuting both less (because not working in an office five
> days a week) and more (because with fewer days in the office some
> people will choose to live farther out).

If you look at the board while waiting for a train at the Gare de Lyon
you'll see that about 25% of the trains are going to Montargis, which
will prompt two questions: 1. Where the heck is Montargis? 2. Why do so
many trains go there?

1. About 125 km south of Paris;
2. Because it's the end of a line that starts out as a suburban line.

That still leaves a puzzle, because once it leaves the real suburbs
(Corbeil-Essonnes) it goes through just two places one might have heard
of -- Melun and Fontainebleau -- and nothing much else. Maybe Nemours,
as in Dupont de, but the chemical company doesn't seem to be named
after the place but after a family. It would make lot more sense to me
if the terminus were at Avon (the down-market sister of Fontainebleau).

Anyway, I don't think even Occam's headline writer would call Montargis
a suburb of Paris.

--
Athel cb

On 26/12/2023 7:47 p.m., occam wrote:
> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>
> Later:
>
> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
> (25 miles) from the French capital."
>
> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>
> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>
> What were the writers thinking?
>

This morning I was a bit startled to hear the radio news refer to
Pukekohe (where there was a house fire in which someone died) as an
"Auckland suburb". It's about 40km from the centre of Auckland, and
separated by several km of open country from the nearest parts of the
"continuous urbanized area". (Similar situation to Meaux.)

Wikipedia "Pukekohe" calls it a "town in the Auckland region", which is
what I would have said. But Wikipedia "Auckland" includes it in
Auckland's "functional urban area (commuting zone)". And that open
country is slowly but steadily filling in with new housing and stuff
along the highways.

I don't know what the people of Pukekohe would think about the matter,
but apparently in the case of Watford it's a touchy issue. A google
query led me to:

Q. Is Watford a suburb of London?
A. It is not part of London, but it is located within the London
commuter belt and is close to the Greater London area. If you suggested
to a resident if Watford that they lived in London you would get very
short shrift.

What I take from this is that calling Watford a suburb of London is not
unthinkable (as in your reductio), but something that some people might
actually do.

On 2023-12-26 20:20:28 +0000, Ross Clark said:

> On 26/12/2023 7:47 p.m., occam wrote:
>> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>>
>> Later:
>>
>> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
>> (25 miles) from the French capital."
>>
>> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
>> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
>> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>>
>> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>>
>> What were the writers thinking?
>>
>
> This morning I was a bit startled to hear the radio news refer to
> Pukekohe (where there was a house fire in which someone died) as an
> "Auckland suburb". It's about 40km from the centre of Auckland, and
> separated by several km of open country from the nearest parts of the
> "continuous urbanized area". (Similar situation to Meaux.)
>
> Wikipedia "Pukekohe" calls it a "town in the Auckland region", which is
> what I would have said. But Wikipedia "Auckland" includes it in
> Auckland's "functional urban area (commuting zone)". And that open
> country is slowly but steadily filling in with new housing and stuff
> along the highways.
>
> I don't know what the people of Pukekohe would think about the matter,
> but apparently in the case of Watford it's a touchy issue. A google
> query led me to:
>
> Q. Is Watford a suburb of London?
> A. It is not part of London, but it is located within the London
> commuter belt and is close to the Greater London area. If you suggested
> to a resident if Watford that they lived in London you would get very
> short shrift.
>
> What I take from this is that calling Watford a suburb of London is not
> unthinkable (as in your reductio), but something that some people might
> actually do.

London people say that the North begins at Watford.

--
Athel cb

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 09:20:28 +1300, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

>On 26/12/2023 7:47 p.m., occam wrote:
>> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>>
>> Later:
>>
>> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
>> (25 miles) from the French capital."
>>
>> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
>> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
>> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>>
>> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>>
>> What were the writers thinking?
>>
>
>This morning I was a bit startled to hear the radio news refer to
>Pukekohe (where there was a house fire in which someone died) as an
>"Auckland suburb". It's about 40km from the centre of Auckland, and
>separated by several km of open country from the nearest parts of the
>"continuous urbanized area". (Similar situation to Meaux.)
>
>Wikipedia "Pukekohe" calls it a "town in the Auckland region", which is
>what I would have said. But Wikipedia "Auckland" includes it in
>Auckland's "functional urban area (commuting zone)". And that open
>country is slowly but steadily filling in with new housing and stuff
>along the highways.
>
>I don't know what the people of Pukekohe would think about the matter,
>but apparently in the case of Watford it's a touchy issue. A google
>query led me to:
>
>Q. Is Watford a suburb of London?
>A. It is not part of London, but it is located within the London
>commuter belt and is close to the Greater London area. If you suggested
>to a resident if Watford that they lived in London you would get very
>short shrift.

The term "short shrift" means "barely adequate time for confession
before execution".

I think that's a bit over-the-top to sentence a Watfor residence to
for claiming to live in London. Flogging, perhaps, but exectution?

>
>What I take from this is that calling Watford a suburb of London is not
>unthinkable (as in your reductio), but something that some people might
>actually do.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

In article <kuvb87Fmcq8U1@mid.individual.net>,
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>
>Later:
>
>"Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
>(25 miles) from the French capital."
>
>25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
>by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
>is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>
>Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>
>What were the writers thinking?

Perhaps they were just translating literally a French press release. The
Wikipedia article https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_de_banlieue says
that suburban train lines are fairly short, roughly 50 km, i.e. 30 miles.

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

On 26/12/23 17:47, occam wrote:

> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of
> Meaux"
>
> Later:
>
> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over
> 41km (25 miles) from the French capital."
>
> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at
> least by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of
> London. (It is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the
> Hague.
>
> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>
> What were the writers thinking?

Western Sydney is politically important because of massive population
growth. The suburbs in that area are definitely considered to be suburbs
of Sydney, and many of them are more than 40 km from the CBD.

But then central Sydney, being almost on the coast, is nowhere near the
geographical centre of the Greater Sydney region.

The urban sprawl is almost as bad in Melbourne. One of my children lives
in a suburb of Melbourne that is 31 km from the centre, and that's far
from being the outermost suburb.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 26-Dec-23 20:20, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 26/12/2023 7:47 p.m., occam wrote:
>> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>>
>> Later:
>>
>> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
>> (25 miles) from the French capital."
>>
>> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
>> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
>> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>>
>> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>>
>> What were the writers thinking?
>>
>
> This morning I was a bit startled to hear the radio news refer to
> Pukekohe (where there was a house fire in which someone died) as an
> "Auckland suburb". It's about 40km from the centre of Auckland, and
> separated by several km of open country from the nearest parts of the
> "continuous urbanized area". (Similar situation to Meaux.)
>
> Wikipedia "Pukekohe" calls it a "town in the Auckland region", which is
> what I would have said. But Wikipedia "Auckland" includes it in
> Auckland's "functional urban area (commuting zone)". And that open
> country is slowly but steadily filling in with new housing and stuff
> along the highways.
>
> I don't know what the people of Pukekohe would think about the matter,
> but apparently in the case of Watford it's a touchy issue. A google
> query led me to:
>
> Q. Is Watford a suburb of London?
> A. It is not part of London, but it is located within the London
> commuter belt and is close to the Greater London area. If you suggested
> to a resident if Watford that they lived in London you would get very
> short shrift.
>
> What I take from this is that calling Watford a suburb of London is not
> unthinkable (as in your reductio), but something that some people might
> actually do.

Those headlines are written by metrocentric types who are convinced that
the only reason anyone would live in such places is that they cannot
afford to live in <big city>, and are thus forced to commute in from
great distances.
Everything must relate to <big city>.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Tuesday, December 26, 2023 at 12:17:41 PM UTC+5:30, occam wrote:
> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>
> Later:
>
> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
> (25 miles) from the French capital."
>
> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>
> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>
> What were the writers thinking?
>
Mantes la Jolie, even further from Paris (54.5 km by road), could get
called a suburb if enough people from there commute to greater Paris
once it becomes a terminal stop of RER E.

Le 26/12/2023 à 06:47, occam a écrit :
>
> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>
> Later:
>
> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
> (25 miles) from the French capital."
>
> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>
> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>
> What were the writers thinking?

Meaux, in Seine-et-Marne (Département 77), is in /la Grande couronne/ of
the Île-de-France. This is a well defined term.

'Géographie de l'Île-de-France' -
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9ographie_de_l%27%C3%8Ele-de-France> :

« Le 1er janvier 1968, elle [la Grande couronne] est réorganisée en
quatre départements à la périphérie de l'Île-de-France : la
Seine-et-Marne (77) qui conserve ses limites, alors que les Yvelines
(78), l'Essonne (91) et le Val-d'Oise (95) sont nés du démantèlement de
la Seine-et-Oise (anciennement 78). »

There is also /la Grande banlieue/ (literally the big suburb), which
seems to be more informal.

'La revanche de la « grande banlieue »' -
<https://objectifgrandparis.fr/la-revanche-de-la-grande-banlieue/> :

« Les villes moyennes de la grande banlieue, lorsqu’elles sont bien
reliées à la capitale, bénéficient de cette proximité tout en
développant leurs propres atouts. Résultat, elles sont souvent en
croissance. Une attractivité que le télétravail ne peut que confirmer,
au moment où le rejet de la densité urbaine semble de plus en plus net.... »

On 26/12/2023 17:40, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2023-12-26 00:47, occam wrote:
>> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>
> When I follow your link, I get the headline:
>
> "France murders: Man held after mother and children killed in Meaux"
>
>> Later:
>>
>> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
>> (25 miles) from the French capital."
>
> and I get:
>
> "An investigation began after their five bodies were found in a flat in
> Meaux, 40km (25 miles) north-east of Paris."
>
> The only instance of "suburb" is:
>
> "In late November, a 41-year-old man confessed to killing his three
> daughters, aged four, 10 and 11, and turned himself in. Police found
> them dead in his home in the town of Alfortville, in the south-eastern
> suburbs of the capital"
>
> Alfotville is definitely a suburb.
>
>> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
>> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
>> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>>
>> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>>
>> What were the writers thinking?
>
> Were they corrected after you read it? Do I get a different version than
> you?
>

Yes. The editors of BBC's European story not only corrected the two
inappropriate 'suburb' references, they also totally changed the title
in the process. The story was clearly evolving at the time of writing of
the original article.

The new puzzle for me is: If you are going to give the article a *head*
transplant, and also a *body* transplant, why keep the old name (URL
pointer)?

On 2023-12-27 09:11:54 +0000, occam said:

> On 26/12/2023 17:40, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2023-12-26 00:47, occam wrote:
>>> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>>
>> When I follow your link, I get the headline:
>>
>> "France murders: Man held after mother and children killed in Meaux"
>>
>>> Later:
>>>
>>> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
>>> (25 miles) from the French capital."
>>
>> and I get:
>>
>> "An investigation began after their five bodies were found in a flat in
>> Meaux, 40km (25 miles) north-east of Paris."
>>
>> The only instance of "suburb" is:
>>
>> "In late November, a 41-year-old man confessed to killing his three
>> daughters, aged four, 10 and 11, and turned himself in. Police found
>> them dead in his home in the town of Alfortville, in the south-eastern
>> suburbs of the capital"
>>
>> Alfotville is definitely a suburb.
>>
>>> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
>>> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
>>> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>>>
>>> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>>>
>>> What were the writers thinking?
>>
>> Were they corrected after you read it? Do I get a different version than
>> you?
>>
>
> Yes. The editors of BBC's European story not only corrected the two
> inappropriate 'suburb' references, they also totally changed the title
> in the process. The story was clearly evolving at the time of writing of
> the original article.

Also, is "north-east" acceptable for a place that is a small bit north
of east? Would you say that Reading was south-west of London?
>
> The new puzzle for me is: If you are going to give the article a *head*
> transplant, and also a *body* transplant, why keep the old name (URL
> pointer)?

--
Athel cb

In article <kv2965F93m2U1@mid.individual.net>,
me@yahoo.com says...
>
> On 2023-12-27 09:11:54 +0000, occam said:
>
> > On 26/12/2023 17:40, lar3ryca wrote:
> >> On 2023-12-26 00:47, occam wrote:
> >>> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
> >>
> >> When I follow your link, I get the headline:
> >>
> >> "France murders: Man held after mother and children killed in Meaux"
> >>
> >>> Later:
> >>>
> >>> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
> >>> (25 miles) from the French capital."
> >>
> >> and I get:
> >>
> >> "An investigation began after their five bodies were found in a flat in
> >> Meaux, 40km (25 miles) north-east of Paris."
> >>
> >> The only instance of "suburb" is:
> >>
> >> "In late November, a 41-year-old man confessed to killing his three
> >> daughters, aged four, 10 and 11, and turned himself in. Police found
> >> them dead in his home in the town of Alfortville, in the south-eastern
> >> suburbs of the capital"
> >>
> >> Alfotville is definitely a suburb.
> >>
> >>> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
> >>> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
> >>> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
> >>>
> >>> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
> >>>
> >>> What were the writers thinking?
> >>
> >> Were they corrected after you read it? Do I get a different version than
> >> you?
> >>
> >
> > Yes. The editors of BBC's European story not only corrected the two
> > inappropriate 'suburb' references, they also totally changed the title
> > in the process. The story was clearly evolving at the time of writing of
> > the original article.
>
> Also, is "north-east" acceptable for a place that is a small bit north
> of east? Would you say that Reading was south-west of London?

No, because Reading is north-west of London.

Janet
> >

On 2023-12-27 10:07:57 +0000, Janet said:

> In article <kv2965F93m2U1@mid.individual.net>,
> me@yahoo.com says...
>>
>> On 2023-12-27 09:11:54 +0000, occam said:
>>
>>> On 26/12/2023 17:40, lar3ryca wrote:
>>>> On 2023-12-26 00:47, occam wrote:
>>>>> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>>>>
>>>> When I follow your link, I get the headline:
>>>>
>>>> "France murders: Man held after mother and children killed in Meaux"
>>>>
>>>>> Later:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
>>>>> (25 miles) from the French capital."
>>>>
>>>> and I get:
>>>>
>>>> "An investigation began after their five bodies were found in a flat in
>>>> Meaux, 40km (25 miles) north-east of Paris."
>>>>
>>>> The only instance of "suburb" is:
>>>>
>>>> "In late November, a 41-year-old man confessed to killing his three
>>>> daughters, aged four, 10 and 11, and turned himself in. Police found
>>>> them dead in his home in the town of Alfortville, in the south-eastern
>>>> suburbs of the capital"
>>>>
>>>> Alfotville is definitely a suburb.
>>>>
>>>>> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
>>>>> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
>>>>> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>>>>>
>>>>> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>>>>>
>>>>> What were the writers thinking?
>>>>
>>>> Were they corrected after you read it? Do I get a different version than
>>>> you?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes. The editors of BBC's European story not only corrected the two
>>> inappropriate 'suburb' references, they also totally changed the title
>>> in the process. The story was clearly evolving at the time of writing of
>>> the original article.
>>
>> Also, is "north-east" acceptable for a place that is a small bit north
>> of east? Would you say that Reading was south-west of London?
>
> No, because Reading is north-west of London.

Not according to Google Maps it isn't. Charing Cross is traditionally
used as the point from which distances from London are defined, and
Reading is slightly south of Charing Cross.

--
Athel cb

Le 27/12/2023 à 10:48, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2023-12-27 10:07:57 +0000, Janet said:
>> In article <kv2965F93m2U1@mid.individual.net>,
>> me@yahoo.com says...
>>>
>>> Also, is "north-east" acceptable for a place that is a small bit north
>>> of east? Would you say that Reading was south-west of London?
>>
>>  No, because Reading is north-west of London.
>
> Not according to Google Maps it isn't. Charing Cross is traditionally
> used as the point from which distances from London are defined, and
> Reading is slightly south of Charing Cross.

Well, they're poles apart, anyway.

On Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 4:18:53 PM UTC+5:30, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-12-27 10:07:57 +0000, Janet said:
> >>
> >> Also, is "north-east" acceptable for a place that is a small bit north
> >> of east? Would you say that Reading was south-west of London?
> >
> > No, because Reading is north-west of London.
> Not according to Google Maps it isn't. Charing Cross is traditionally
> used as the point from which distances from London are defined, and
> Reading is slightly south of Charing Cross.
>
Reading is due West from Paddington in common parlance.
It is possible to introduce South to be more precise but
that is not commonly done, AFAIK, for such a small
deviation from West.

In article <MPG.3ff607da2719c9b7989b44
@news.individual.net>, nobody@home.com says...
> Subject: Re: Suburb?
> From: Janet <nobody@home.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
>
> In article <kv2965F93m2U1@mid.individual.net>,
> me@yahoo.com says...
> > [quoted text muted]
> > > in the process. The story was clearly evolving at the time of writing of
> > > the original article.
> >
> > Also, is "north-east" acceptable for a place that is a small bit north
> > of east? Would you say that Reading was south-west of London?
>
> No, because Reading is north-west of London.

Oh no it isn't.....

:-@

Janet

Le 27/12/2023 à 06:26, Hibou a écrit :
> Le 26/12/2023 à 06:47, occam a écrit :
>>
>> Headline: "Bodies of five people found in flat in Paris suburb of Meaux"
>>
>> Later:
>>
>> "Their bodies were found in the town of Meaux which is just over 41km
>> (25 miles) from the French capital."
>>
>> 25 miles away is a big stretch of the definition of 'suburb', at least
>> by European standards. It's like calling Watford a suburb of London. (It
>> is not.) Or like calling Rotterdam a suburb of the Hague.
>>
>> Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821163
>>
>> What were the writers thinking?
>
> Meaux, in Seine-et-Marne (Département 77), is in /la Grande couronne/ of
> the Île-de-France. This is a well defined term.
>
> 'Géographie de l'Île-de-France' -
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9ographie_de_l%27%C3%8Ele-de-France> :
>
> « Le 1er janvier 1968, elle [la Grande couronne] est réorganisée en
> quatre départements à la périphérie de l'Île-de-France : la
> Seine-et-Marne (77) qui conserve ses limites, alors que les Yvelines
> (78), l'Essonne (91) et le Val-d'Oise (95) sont nés du démantèlement de
> la Seine-et-Oise (anciennement 78). »
>
> There is also /la Grande banlieue/ (literally the big suburb), which
> seems to be more informal.
>
> 'La revanche de la « grande banlieue »' -
> <https://objectifgrandparis.fr/la-revanche-de-la-grande-banlieue/> :
>
> « Les villes moyennes de la grande banlieue, lorsqu’elles sont bien
> reliées à la capitale, bénéficient de cette proximité tout en
> développant leurs propres atouts. Résultat, elles sont souvent en
> croissance. Une attractivité que le télétravail ne peut que confirmer,
> au moment où le rejet de la densité urbaine semble de plus en plus
> net.... »

Question put in fllf, with this response: « La notion de banlieue n'est
pas officielle et donc élastique. »

<https://groups.google.com/g/fr.lettres.langue.francaise/c/jTQiNBwAlMY>

On 2023-12-27 06:00, Janet wrote:
> In article <MPG.3ff607da2719c9b7989b44
> @news.individual.net>, nobody@home.com says...
>> Subject: Re: Suburb?
>> From: Janet <nobody@home.com>
>> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
>>
>> In article <kv2965F93m2U1@mid.individual.net>,
>> me@yahoo.com says...
>>> [quoted text muted]
>>>> in the process. The story was clearly evolving at the time of writing of
>>>> the original article.
>>>
>>> Also, is "north-east" acceptable for a place that is a small bit north
>>> of east? Would you say that Reading was south-west of London?
>>
>> No, because Reading is north-west of London.
>
> Oh no it isn't.....

According to Google Earth:

Charing Cross 51 30 32 N
London 51 30 26 N
Reading 51 27 17 N

Reading is about 6km south of Charing Cross or London (to the nearest km).

--
____
√ -1 2³ Σ Π
It was delicious.

In article <umhnrg$fpt$1@dont-email.me>,
lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
> On 2023-12-27 06:00, Janet wrote:
> > In article <MPG.3ff607da2719c9b7989b44
> > @news.individual.net>, nobody@home.com says...
> >> Subject: Re: Suburb?
> >> From: Janet <nobody@home.com>
> >> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
> >>
> >> In article <kv2965F93m2U1@mid.individual.net>,
> >> me@yahoo.com says...
> >>> [quoted text muted]
> >>>> in the process. The story was clearly evolving at the time of writing of
> >>>> the original article.
> >>>
> >>> Also, is "north-east" acceptable for a place that is a small bit north
> >>> of east? Would you say that Reading was south-west of London?
> >>
> >> No, because Reading is north-west of London.
> >
> > Oh no it isn't.....

> According to Google Earth:

> Charing Cross 51 30 32 N
> London 51 30 26 N
> Reading 51 27 17 N

> Reading is about 6km south of Charing Cross or London (to the nearest km).

Reading is also some 40 miles west of London

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4tι²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 2023-12-27 18:30:17 +0000, charles said:

> In article <umhnrg$fpt$1@dont-email.me>,
> lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
>> On 2023-12-27 06:00, Janet wrote:
>>> In article <MPG.3ff607da2719c9b7989b44
>>> @news.individual.net>, nobody@home.com says...
>>>> Subject: Re: Suburb?
>>>> From: Janet <nobody@home.com>
>>>> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
>>>>
>>>> In article <kv2965F93m2U1@mid.individual.net>,
>>>> me@yahoo.com says...
>>>>> [quoted text muted]
>>>>>> in the process. The story was clearly evolving at the time of writing of
>>>>>> the original article.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, is "north-east" acceptable for a place that is a small bit north
>>>>> of east? Would you say that Reading was south-west of London?
>>>>
>>>> No, because Reading is north-west of London.
>>>
>>> Oh no it isn't.....
>
>> According to Google Earth:
>
>> Charing Cross 51 30 32 N
>> London 51 30 26 N
>> Reading 51 27 17 N
>
>> Reading is about 6km south of Charing Cross or London (to the nearest km).
>
>
> Reading is also some 40 miles west of London

Yes. That's the important point, just as Meaux is east (not north-east)
of Paris.

Incidentally, the cheese Brie de Meaux owes its name to Meaux,
although, according to Wikipedia, "There is, however, no production
close to Meaux, and there is little celebration of the cheese in the
town."

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.