Subject: Henry Kissinger dead at 100

His father and mother lived to 95 and 97.

His mother once called him 'My son the Außenminister.'

Etymologically, that means Minister of State, not Secretary of State.

In US English, India's Finance Minister would be called Minister of
State for Finance, according to an American. That would make
Minister of State a common noun clause.

On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:29:27 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> Subject: Henry Kissinger dead at 100
>
> His father and mother lived to 95 and 97.
>
> His mother once called him 'My son the Außenminister.'
>
> Etymologically, that means Minister of State, not Secretary of State.

I'm pretty sure that etymologically it means Minister of outer places,
external affairs, that is, Foreign Minister.

It's a bit odd that in the U.S., the national Secretary of State is the
cabinet officer in charge of foreign affairs. The state Secretaries
of State are mostly in charge of elections. (Why do I think I'm about
to learn something?)

But yes, the American cabinet secretaries correspond to ministers
in most other countries.

> In US English, India's Finance Minister would be called Minister of
> State for Finance, according to an American.

Not according to another American.

> That would make
> Minister of State a common noun clause.

Certainly not a clause,

--
Jerry Friedman

On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 8:07:00 AM UTC+5:30, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:29:27 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > Subject: Henry Kissinger dead at 100
> >
> > His father and mother lived to 95 and 97.
> >
> > His mother once called him 'My son the Außenminister.'
> >
> I'm pretty sure that etymologically it means Minister of outer places,
> external affairs, that is, Foreign Minister.
>
Thanks.
>
> It's a bit odd that in the U.S., the national Secretary of State is the
> cabinet officer in charge of foreign affairs.
>
The State Department is responsible for sending diplomats to
foreign countries. I find it peculiar that in US English, State refers to
foreign affairs. It seems more natural for it to refer to matters of State
which would tend to be domestic affairs.
>
> the American cabinet secretaries correspond to ministers
> in most other countries.
>
Very well, but I'd like to explore etymology.
Does Minister mean a subordinate like Secretary means?
One who ministers to the homeless need not have a supernumerary.
>
> > In US English, India's Finance Minister would be called Minister of
> > State for Finance, according to an American.
> Not according to another American.
>
How would you describe his job title to an American who thinks a
minister is a pastor?
>
> > That would make
> > Minister of State a common noun clause.
> Certainly not a clause,
>
What is the right grammatical term?

In article <947ef452-2c01-4168-aafe-d356685e5ab7n@googlegroups.com>,
Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 8:07:00 AM UTC+5:30, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>> It's a bit odd that in the U.S., the national Secretary of State is the
>> cabinet officer in charge of foreign affairs.
>>
>The State Department is responsible for sending diplomats to
> foreign countries. I find it peculiar that in US English, State refers to
> foreign affairs. It seems more natural for it to refer to matters of State
> which would tend to be domestic affairs.

The State Department is the oldest executive department, and used to
have numerous other functions that were moved to other departments
when those were formed. The Secretary of State is still the custodian
of the Great Seal of the United States, to name one remaining domestic
responsibility, although I have no idea what documents today are
actually sealed with the Great Seal rather than an agency or
office seal.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

Dingbat wrote:

> Very well, but I'd like to explore etymology.
> Does Minister mean a subordinate like Secretary means?

In Denmark a minister is the most powerful political person with only
the prime minister to answer to. The section they handle is specified in
their title, e.g. trafikminister who handles anything related to
traffic. A minister has a department of civil servants (et ministerium)
to provide information and legal advice.

It's true that "min-" has to do with something small, inferior, but the
Danish use has to do with the servant-meaning: a minster serves the
people.

--
Bertel, Denmark

> On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 8:07:00 AM UTC+5:30, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>> I'm pretty sure that etymologically it means Minister of outer places,
>> external affairs, that is, Foreign Minister.
>>

[ASIDE] Jerry, I can only see the echo of your post, not the original.
This is worrying. Who (or what) else is being 'trimmed'?

Le 30/11/2023 à 04:40, Garrett Wollman a écrit :
>
> The State Department is the oldest executive department, and used to
> have numerous other functions that were moved to other departments
> when those were formed. The Secretary of State is still the custodian
> of the Great Seal of the United States, to name one remaining domestic
> responsibility,

By golly, that is some domestic responsibility, to keep on the right
side of the local fishmongers, ensure a supply of fresh fish, and keep
the Great Seal healthy.

> although I have no idea what documents today are
> actually sealed with the Great Seal rather than an agency or
> office seal.

My mind is boggling now.

occam wrote:

> [ASIDE] Jerry, I can only see the echo of your post, not the original.

Same here.

--
Bertel, Denmark

* Bertel Lund Hansen <uk9ivp$1a2ba$1@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:00:41 +0100:
> occam wrote:
>> [ASIDE] Jerry, I can only see the echo of your post, not the original.
> Same here.

freenews. netfront. net is a read-only news server and you can check
there, i think it doesn't implement the filtering that e-s and friends
implement

On 30/11/2023 12:47, Madhu wrote:
> * Bertel Lund Hansen <uk9ivp$1a2ba$1@dont-email.me> :
> Wrote on Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:00:41 +0100:
>> occam wrote:
>>> [ASIDE] Jerry, I can only see the echo of your post, not the original.
>> Same here.
>
> freenews. netfront. net is a read-only news server and you can check
> there, i think it doesn't implement the filtering that e-s and friends
> implement
>

Hmm. I think it is a bit more complicated than that. Dingbat's post
(also using G2/1.0) is getting through. My own server NIN
<News.Individual.Net> is displaying this odd behaviour - blocking some
while letting others through.

On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:58:08 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 8:07:00 AM UTC+5:30, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:29:27 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > > Subject: Henry Kissinger dead at 100
> > >
> > > His father and mother lived to 95 and 97.
> > >
> > > His mother once called him 'My son the Außenminister.'
> > >
> > I'm pretty sure that etymologically it means Minister of outer places,
> > external affairs, that is, Foreign Minister.
> >
> Thanks.
> >
> > It's a bit odd that in the U.S., the national Secretary of State is the
> > cabinet officer in charge of foreign affairs.
> >
> The State Department is responsible for sending diplomats to
> foreign countries. I find it peculiar that in US English, State refers to
> foreign affairs. It seems more natural for it to refer to matters of State
> which would tend to be domestic affairs.
> >
> > the American cabinet secretaries correspond to ministers
> > in most other countries.
> >
> Very well, but I'd like to explore etymology.
> Does Minister mean a subordinate like Secretary means?

Yes, see any on-line etymological source. I hadn't known that "minister"
is to "minus" as "magister" (the Latin origin of "master") is to "magis"--
partly because I didn't know the Latin word "magis", meaning "more".

(Somehow the shift from "hadn't known" to "didn't know" seems right or
least all right to me, but I may be wrong.)

> One who ministers to the homeless need not have a supernumerary.

They're serving the homeless, or providing a service to them.
("Supernumerary" isn't the word you want.)
> > > In US English, India's Finance Minister would be called Minister of
> > > State for Finance, according to an American.

I see that India also has a Minister of State for Finance, who is an
assistant to the Minister of Finance. I haven't tried to figure out that
title.

> > Not according to another American.
> >
> How would you describe his job title to an American who thinks a
> minister is a pastor?

"'Minister' also means a cabinet official, so their Finance Minister is like our
Secretary of the Treasury." Though I prefer not to contemplate that level
of ignorance.

> > > That would make
> > > Minister of State a common noun clause.
>
> > Certainly not a clause,
> >
> What is the right grammatical term?

Apparently "common noun phrase" and "proper noun phrase" exist. Maybe
there are other possibilities.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 30-Nov-23 8:37, Hibou wrote:
> Le 30/11/2023 à 04:40, Garrett Wollman a écrit :
>>
>> The State Department is the oldest executive department, and used to
>> have numerous other functions that were moved to other departments
>> when those were formed.  The Secretary of State is still the custodian
>> of the Great Seal of the United States, to name one remaining domestic
>> responsibility,
>
> By golly, that is some domestic responsibility, to keep on the right
> side of the local fishmongers, ensure a supply of fresh fish, and keep
> the Great Seal healthy.
>
>> although I have no idea what documents today are
>> actually sealed with the Great Seal rather than an agency or
>> office seal.
>
> My mind is boggling now.
>
Indeed. There are a good many members of the Phocidae, but I can't find
any mention of the Great Seal.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 1:06:52 PM UTC-7, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 30-Nov-23 8:37, Hibou wrote:
> > Le 30/11/2023 à 04:40, Garrett Wollman a écrit :
> >>
> >> The State Department is the oldest executive department, and used to
> >> have numerous other functions that were moved to other departments
> >> when those were formed. The Secretary of State is still the custodian
> >> of the Great Seal of the United States, to name one remaining domestic
> >> responsibility,
> >
> > By golly, that is some domestic responsibility, to keep on the right
> > side of the local fishmongers, ensure a supply of fresh fish, and keep
> > the Great Seal healthy.
> >
> >> although I have no idea what documents today are
> >> actually sealed with the Great Seal rather than an agency or
> >> office seal.
> >
> > My mind is boggling now.
> >
> Indeed. There are a good many members of the Phocidae, but I can't find
> any mention of the Great Seal.

The species occurs in your country too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_Realm

Look for it in some place called the Lord Chancellor's Purse.

There used to be a Privy Seal too. I'm not sure where you'd look for that.

--
Jerry Friedman

In article <2c3afbec-1b08-4316-8b5d-e5c387dbc76fn@googlegroups.com>,
Jerry Friedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>There used to be a Privy Seal too. I'm not sure where you'd look for that.

Ask Baron True, he's its keeper.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On 2023-11-29 22:40, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <947ef452-2c01-4168-aafe-d356685e5ab7n@googlegroups.com>,
> Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 8:07:00 AM UTC+5:30, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>>> It's a bit odd that in the U.S., the national Secretary of State is the
>>> cabinet officer in charge of foreign affairs.
>>>
>> The State Department is responsible for sending diplomats to
>> foreign countries. I find it peculiar that in US English, State refers to
>> foreign affairs. It seems more natural for it to refer to matters of State
>> which would tend to be domestic affairs.
>
> The State Department is the oldest executive department, and used to
> have numerous other functions that were moved to other departments
> when those were formed. The Secretary of State is still the custodian
> of the Great Seal of the United States, to name one remaining domestic
> responsibility, although I have no idea what documents today are
> actually sealed with the Great Seal rather than an agency or
> office seal.

I can't think of Henry Kissinger without thinking of the Monty Python song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGV6lvNTR4

--
“If you raise your children,
you can spoil your grandchildren.
But if you spoil your children,
you’ll have to raise your grandchildren.”