Subject: Anglophone French

<<French spoken by English speakers learning French is not French to
the French. The host of a video says French people never use 'Je ne
sais pas'. The host of a video says he is French Jewish, as is the actor
who has his French critiqued. Unless a student goes to France to speak conversationally, how would they know.>>

I responded:
That's like saying 'respondez s'il vous plait' is seldom used. A short form
RSVP is used. Short forms and slang alternatives are used; the shortest
I find by a search are 'Je sais' and ''Chais pas'. The French can most
likely comprehend the full form.

Je ne sais quoi, however, is said in full. With no more words added, it's
not meant literally though.

'Je ne sais pas dire' is shortened differently, to 'Ne sais pas comment dire'.

P.S. It's Narrator, not Host

Le 25/11/2023 à 04:54, Dingbat a écrit :
> Subject: Anglophone French
>
> <<French spoken by English speakers learning French is not French to
> the French. The host of a video says French people never use 'Je ne
> sais pas'. The host of a video says he is French Jewish, as is the actor
> who has his French critiqued. Unless a student goes to France to speak conversationally, how would they know.>>
>
> I responded:
> That's like saying 'respondez s'il vous plait' is seldom used. A short form
> RSVP is used. Short forms and slang alternatives are used; the shortest
> I find by a search are 'Je sais' and ''Chais pas'. The French can most
> likely comprehend the full form.
>
> Je ne sais quoi, however, is said in full. With no more words added, it's
> not meant literally though.
>
> 'Je ne sais pas dire' is shortened differently, to 'Ne sais pas comment dire'.
>
> P.S. It's Narrator, not Host

Hmm. Bit second-hand, all this, without a link to the video.

Like everyone else, the French use different registers, depending on the
occasion, from a drug deal in the banlieue to an allocution by President
Macron, and they certainly do say « Je ne sais pas » when it suits.

Which reminds me of a comment about a student teacher we had when I was
at school - Norwegian, I think she was. You can tell she's foreign,
someone said; her English is too good.

On 2023-11-25 08:06:41 +0000, Hibou said:

> Le 25/11/2023 à 04:54, Dingbat a écrit :
>> Subject: Anglophone French
>>
>> <<French spoken by English speakers learning French is not French to
>> the French. The host of a video says French people never use 'Je ne
>> sais pas'. The host of a video says he is French Jewish, as is the actor
>> who has his French critiqued. Unless a student goes to France to speak
>> conversationally, how would they know.>>
>>
>> I responded:
>> That's like saying 'respondez s'il vous plait' is seldom used. A short form
>> RSVP is used. Short forms and slang alternatives are used; the shortest
>> I find by a search are 'Je sais' and ''Chais pas'. The French can most
>> likely comprehend the full form.
>>
>> Je ne sais quoi, however, is said in full. With no more words added, it's
>> not meant literally though.
>>
>> 'Je ne sais pas dire' is shortened differently, to 'Ne sais pas comment dire'.
>>
>> P.S. It's Narrator, not Host
>
> Hmm. Bit second-hand, all this, without a link to the video.

Yes, and he omits to mention by far the most common way of saying it in
conversational French: Je sais pas
>
> Like everyone else, the French use different registers, depending on
> the occasion, from a drug deal in the banlieue to an allocution by
> President Macron, and they certainly do say « Je ne sais pas » when it
> suits.

Yes, at the time of the first Gulf War we had a Moroccan student. I
asked her once if she could understand Saddam Hussein's speeches. She
said yes, because in formal speeches he spoke in Classical Arabic, and
everyone is taught that. However, she would have had great difficulty
making sense of conversational Iraqi speech. Later there was an
Algerian and a Lebanese student in the lab. They were strongly
attracted to one another, but could only communicate easily in French
or in an approximation to Classical Arabic.

Likewise, I've never come across a Spanish-speaking South American who
had the slightest difficulty with the /θ/ in my name, even though it's
not a sound they ever need for ordinary conversation. (Contrast that
with French or German speakers, who are typically hopeless with /θ/.)
That's because it's drummed into them at school. Many years ago, when I
first knew my wife, we were walking around a market in Valparaíso. I
asked her what a particular fish on sale was. She said it was merluza
(hake, the most boring fish natural selection ever produced),
pronouncing the z as /s/. I repeated it, but pronouncing the z as /θ/.
She asked me how I knew it was written merluza and not merlusa. I don't
know, I said, but I thought merlusa would look wrong.
>
> Which reminds me of a comment about a student teacher we had when I was
> at school - Norwegian, I think she was. You can tell she's foreign,
> someone said; her English is too good.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

El Sat, 25 Nov 2023 10:03:27 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:

> Likewise, I've never come across a Spanish-speaking South American who
> had the slightest difficulty with the /θ/ in my name, even though it's
> not a sound they ever need for ordinary conversation.

Here (where the spoken Spanish is much like in Latin America) people that
try to speak English always say "Sank yu v(b)ey mach".

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:24:20 AM UTC+5:30, Dingbat wrote:
> Subject: Anglophone French
>
> <<French spoken by English speakers learning French is not French to
> the French. The host of a video says French people never use 'Je ne
> sais pas'. The host of the video says he is French Jewish, as is the actor
> who has his French critiqued. Unless a student goes to France to speak
> conversationally, how would they know.>>
>
> I responded:
> That's like saying 'respondez s'il vous plait' is seldom used. A short form
> RSVP is used. Short forms and slang alternatives are used; the shortest
> I find by a search are 'Je sais' and ''Chais pas'. The French can most
> likely comprehend the full form.
>
> Je ne sais quoi, however, is said in full. With no more words added, it's
> not meant literally though.
>
> 'Je ne sais pas dire' is shortened differently, to 'Ne sais pas dire'.
>
> P.S. It's Narrator, not Host
>
To whoever asked, I have the link to the video now:
<https://youtu.be/ksn6Er0N__E?si=IPcqAJn5kB4-16ML>

Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:24:20 AM UTC+5:30, Dingbat wrote:
>> Subject: Anglophone French
>>
>> <<French spoken by English speakers learning French is not French to
>> the French. The host of a video says French people never use 'Je ne
>> sais pas'. The host of the video says he is French Jewish, as is the actor
>> who has his French critiqued. Unless a student goes to France to speak
>> conversationally, how would they know.>>
>>
>> I responded:
>> That's like saying 'respondez s'il vous plait' is seldom used. A short form
>> RSVP is used. Short forms and slang alternatives are used; the shortest
>> I find by a search are 'Je sais' and ''Chais pas'. The French can most
>> likely comprehend the full form.
>>
>> Je ne sais quoi, however, is said in full. With no more words added, it's
>> not meant literally though.
>>
>> 'Je ne sais pas dire' is shortened differently, to 'Ne sais pas dire'.
>>
>> P.S. It's Narrator, not Host
>>
> To whoever asked, I have the link to the video now:
> <https://youtu.be/ksn6Er0N__E?si=IPcqAJn5kB4-16ML>
>

Bonne vidéo !-;)

--
Michèle

On 2023-11-25 12:58:48 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:

> El Sat, 25 Nov 2023 10:03:27 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:
>
>> Likewise, I've never come across a Spanish-speaking South American who
>> had the slightest difficulty with the /θ/ in my name, even though it's
>> not a sound they ever need for ordinary conversation.
>
> Here (where the spoken Spanish is much like in Latin America

In Seville and the Canaries, yes, but I've been surprised at how
different it is, say, in Córdoba or Granada. I find Tenerife Spanish
easy to understand, followed by Seville, but otherwise I have more
difficulty. In Tenerife they don't have vosotros and the corresponding
verb forms, but I think they do in Seville. Do you use vosotros where
you are?

> ) people that
> try to speak English always say "Sank yu v(b)ey mach".

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

El Sat, 25 Nov 2023 17:25:37 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:
> Do you use vosotros where
> you are?

Very much so. But people regularly get confused between formal and
informal etc. One hears stuff like "¿Se vais?".

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

On 2023-11-25 15:51:50 +0000, Michèle said:

> Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:24:20 AM UTC+5:30, Dingbat wrote:
>>> Subject: Anglophone French
>>>
>>> <<French spoken by English speakers learning French is not French to
>>> the French. The host of a video says French people never use 'Je ne
>>> sais pas'. The host of the video says he is French Jewish, as is the actor
>>> who has his French critiqued. Unless a student goes to France to speak
>>> conversationally, how would they know.>>
>>>
>>> I responded:
>>> That's like saying 'respondez s'il vous plait' is seldom used. A short form
>>> RSVP is used. Short forms and slang alternatives are used; the shortest
>>> I find by a search are 'Je sais' and ''Chais pas'. The French can most
>>> likely comprehend the full form.
>>>
>>> Je ne sais quoi, however, is said in full. With no more words added, it's
>>> not meant literally though.
>>>
>>> 'Je ne sais pas dire' is shortened differently, to 'Ne sais pas dire'.
>>>
>>> P.S. It's Narrator, not Host
>>>
>> To whoever asked, I have the link to the video now:
>> <https://youtu.be/ksn6Er0N__E?si=IPcqAJn5kB4-16ML>
>>
>
> Bonne vidéo !-;)

Thanks for that link. It seems to me that he doesn't say "Ne sais pas
dire" but "Je sais pas dire", with the "ne" omitted, not the "Je"
(which would be quite weird), with "Je sais" shortened in speech to
"Chais" as the narrator says.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 12:41:18 PM UTC+5:30, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-11-25 15:51:50 +0000, Michèle said:
> > Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:24:20 AM UTC+5:30, Dingbat wrote:
> >>> Subject: Anglophone French
> >>>
> >>> <<French spoken by English speakers learning French is not French to
> >>> the French. The host of a video says French people never use 'Je ne
> >>> sais pas'. The host of the video says he is French Jewish, as is the actor
> >>> who has his French critiqued. Unless a student goes to France to speak
> >>> conversationally, how would they know.>>
> >>>
> >>> I responded:
> >>> That's like saying 'respondez s'il vous plait' is seldom used. A short form
> >>> RSVP is used. Short forms and slang alternatives are used; the shortest
> >>> I find by a search are 'Je sais' and ''Chais pas'. The French can most
> >>> likely comprehend the full form.
> >>>
> >>> Je ne sais quoi, however, is said in full. With no more words added, it's
> >>> not meant literally though.
> >>>
> >>> 'Je ne sais pas dire' is shortened differently, to 'Ne sais pas dire'..
> >>>
> >>> P.S. It's Narrator, not Host
> >>>
> >> To whoever asked, I have the link to the video now:
> >> <https://youtu.be/ksn6Er0N__E?si=IPcqAJn5kB4-16ML>
> >>
> >
> > Bonne vidéo !-;)
>
> Thanks for that link. It seems to me that he doesn't say "Ne sais pas
> dire" but "Je sais pas dire", with the "ne" omitted, not the "Je"
> (which would be quite weird), with "Je sais" shortened in speech to
> "Chais" as the narrator says.
> --
>
Thanks for the correction. I have been corrected about usage of Host.
It seems that one doesn't have to be Alex Trebek or Johnny Carson to
be a host:

<<Host/Spokesperson – This is a professional actor that appears on
camera representing the company or organization in the video.
They are typically addressing the audience looking directly into the
camera.>>
<https://www.mastcom.com/blog/video-terms>