180k march against antisemitism in France | Times of India*

How should one parse the headline before reading the article? Was there
a march against antisemitism in just France? Or was there a march against
antisemitism everywhere, with the march occurring in France? Is there a
way to write a headline precisely enough to tell which of the two it is?

* <https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/180000-protesters-march-against-antisemitism-in-france/articleshow/105425248.cms>

On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 7:30:49 PM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> 180k march against antisemitism in France | Times of India*
>
> How should one parse the headline before reading the article? Was there
> a march against antisemitism in just France? Or was there a march against
> antisemitism everywhere, with the march occurring in France? Is there a
> way to write a headline precisely enough to tell which of the two it is?
>
> * <https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/180000-protesters-march-against-antisemitism-in-france/articleshow/105425248.cms>

It was a global uprising against "antisemitism in France" - turnout was HUGE in

Nauru Tuvalu Liechtenstein Saint Kitts and Nevis Malta Kiribati and the Maldives. French Jews called the heads of states of those countries to thank them.

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 16:30:46 -0800 (PST), Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

>180k march against antisemitism in France | Times of India*
>
>How should one parse the headline before reading the article? Was there
> a march against antisemitism in just France? Or was there a march against
> antisemitism everywhere, with the march occurring in France? Is there a
> way to write a headline precisely enough to tell which of the two it is?
>
>* <https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/180000-protesters-march-against-antisemitism-in-france/articleshow/105425248.cms>

The march took place in France. That's clear from the headline. Other
marches may have taken place in other places, but the article is about
one particular march.

There's no ambiguity in the headline.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

Le 23/11/2023 à 04:10, TonyCooper a écrit :
> Dingbat wrote:
>>
>> 180k march against antisemitism in France | Times of India*
>>
>> How should one parse the headline before reading the article? Was there
>> a march against antisemitism in just France? Or was there a march against
>> antisemitism everywhere, with the march occurring in France? Is there a
>> way to write a headline precisely enough to tell which of the two it is?
>>
>> * <https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/180000-protesters-march-against-antisemitism-in-france/articleshow/105425248.cms>
>
> The march took place in France. That's clear from the headline. Other
> marches may have taken place in other places, but the article is about
> one particular march.
>
> There's no ambiguity in the headline.

I agree the headline's fine - one can say only so much in the space
available - but there were a number of marches, not just one - in Paris,
Strasbourg, Grenoble, Bordeaux, Nice, Lyon....

The total of >182,000 comes from the French Ministry of the Interior.

'Marche contre l'antisémitisme : plus de 182 000 personnes ont manifesté
en France, selon le ministère de l'Intérieur' -
<https://www.francetvinfo.fr/societe/antisemitisme/marche-contre-l-antisemitisme-plus-de-182-000-personnes-ont-manifeste-en-france-selon-le-ministere-de-l-interieur_6179760.html>

On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 9:40:12 AM UTC+5:30, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 16:30:46 -0800 (PST), Dingbat
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >180k march against antisemitism in France | Times of India*
> >
> >How should one parse the headline before reading the article? Was there
> > a march against antisemitism in just France? Or was there a march against
> > antisemitism everywhere, with the march occurring in France? Is there a
> > way to write a headline precisely enough to tell which of the two it is?
> >
> >* <https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/180000-protesters-march-against-antisemitism-in-france/articleshow/105425248.cms>
> The march took place in France. That's clear from the headline. Other
> marches may have taken place in other places, but the article is about
> one particular march.
>
> There's no ambiguity in the headline.
> --
Really? Would '180k march against famine in Ethiopia' mean a march
in Ethiopia? It could easily mean marches all over the world to
protest the world's allowing Ethiopia to starve. 'We are the world' was
a song to privately raise funds to relieve Ethiopia's famine. That was
in 1985 when Ethiopia was much less populated than today but
hobbled by a Marxist government. Today, it is Venezuela that's blessed
with such a government. 1/4 of its people are mostly thriving because
they have fled Venezuela for countries that allow them to prosper.

Coming to the article behind the headline, it was many marches in
France with the number of marchers adding up to 180k, about half of
them in Paris. Reading between the lines: It was probably in order to
encourage the French government to combat anti-Semitism in France
and warn anti-Semites in France to not expect free rein. That is,
while the marchers may well oppose anti-Semitism everywhere, their
activism was directed against anti-Semitism in France.

On 2023-11-23 06:38:27 +0000, Hibou said:

> Le 23/11/2023 à 04:10, TonyCooper a écrit :
>> Dingbat wrote:
>>>
>>> 180k march against antisemitism in France | Times of India*
>>>
>>> How should one parse the headline before reading the article? Was there
>>> a march against antisemitism in just France? Or was there a march against
>>> antisemitism everywhere, with the march occurring in France? Is there a
>>> way to write a headline precisely enough to tell which of the two it is?
>>>
>>> *
>>> <https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/180000-protesters-march-against-antisemitism-in-france/articleshow/105425248.cms>
>>>
>>
>> The march took place in France. That's clear from the headline. Other
>> marches may have taken place in other places, but the article is about
>> one particular march.
>>
>> There's no ambiguity in the headline.
>
> I agree the headline's fine - one can say only so much in the space
> available - but there were a number of marches, not just one - in
> Paris, Strasbourg, Grenoble, Bordeaux, Nice, Lyon....

You wouldn't have known from 99% of the reports on the television news
that there were any others than in Paris and Strasbourg. (Why did
Strasbourg get mentioned? Because that's where Marine Le Pen did her
marching.)
>
> The total of >182,000 comes from the French Ministry of the Interior.
>
> 'Marche contre l'antisémitisme : plus de 182 000 personnes ont
> manifesté en France, selon le ministère de l'Intérieur' -
> <https://www.francetvinfo.fr/societe/antisemitisme/marche-contre-l-antisemitisme-plus-de-182-000-personnes-ont-manifeste-en-france-selon-le-ministere-de-l-interieur_6179760.html>
>

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 1:41:36 AM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 9:40:12 AM UTC+5:30, TonyCooper wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 16:30:46 -0800 (PST), Dingbat
> > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >180k march against antisemitism in France | Times of India*
> > >
> > >How should one parse the headline before reading the article? Was there
> > > a march against antisemitism in just France? Or was there a march against
> > > antisemitism everywhere, with the march occurring in France? Is there a
> > > way to write a headline precisely enough to tell which of the two it is?
> > >
> > >* <https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/180000-protesters-march-against-antisemitism-in-france/articleshow/105425248.cms>
> > The march took place in France. That's clear from the headline. Other
> > marches may have taken place in other places, but the article is about
> > one particular march.
> >
> > There's no ambiguity in the headline.
> > --
> Really? Would '180k march against famine in Ethiopia' mean a march
> in Ethiopia? It could easily mean marches all over the world to
> protest the world's allowing Ethiopia to starve. 'We are the world' was
> a song to privately raise funds to relieve Ethiopia's famine. That was
> in 1985 when Ethiopia was much less populated than today but
> hobbled by a Marxist government. Today, it is Venezuela that's blessed
> with such a government. 1/4 of its people are mostly thriving because
> they have fled Venezuela for countries that allow them to prosper.
>
> Coming to the article behind the headline, it was many marches in
> France with the number of marchers adding up to 180k, about half of
> them in Paris. Reading between the lines: It was probably in order to
> encourage the French government to combat anti-Semitism in France
> and warn anti-Semites in France to not expect free rein. That is,
> while the marchers may well oppose anti-Semitism everywhere, their
> activism was directed against anti-Semitism in France.

Nah. All countries come together from time to time and draw lots to decide who would be 'anti-semitic" until the next meeting.
But the 'anti-semitism" torch can never be allowed to go out.

On 23-Nov-23 6:38, Hibou wrote:
> Le 23/11/2023 à 04:10, TonyCooper a écrit :
>> Dingbat wrote:
>>>
>>> 180k march against antisemitism in France | Times of India*
>>>
>>> How should one parse the headline before reading the article? Was there
>>> a march against antisemitism in just France? Or was there a march
>>> against
>>> antisemitism everywhere, with the march occurring in France? Is there a
>>> way to write a headline precisely enough to tell which of the two it is?
>>>
>>> *
>>> <https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/180000-protesters-march-against-antisemitism-in-france/articleshow/105425248.cms>
>>
>> The march took place in France.  That's clear from the headline. Other
>> marches may have taken place in other places, but the article is about
>> one particular march.
>>
>> There's no ambiguity in the headline.
>
> I agree the headline's fine - one can say only so much in the space
> available - but there were a number of marches, not just one - in Paris,
> Strasbourg, Grenoble, Bordeaux, Nice, Lyon....
>
> The total of >182,000 comes from the French Ministry of the Interior.
>
> 'Marche contre l'antisémitisme : plus de 182 000 personnes ont manifesté
> en France, selon le ministère de l'Intérieur' -
> <https://www.francetvinfo.fr/societe/antisemitisme/marche-contre-l-antisemitisme-plus-de-182-000-personnes-ont-manifeste-en-france-selon-le-ministere-de-l-interieur_6179760.html>
>
But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
antisemitism wherever it might be found?

I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet hat am 23.11.2023 um 19:45 geschrieben:
> But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
> antisemitism wherever it might be found?
>
> I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.

What's the difference? Does anyone think that antisemitism in France is
bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?

On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 20:57:16 +0100, Silvano
<Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

>Sam Plusnet hat am 23.11.2023 um 19:45 geschrieben:
>> But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
>> antisemitism wherever it might be found?
>>
>> I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.
>
>
>What's the difference? Does anyone think that antisemitism in France is
>bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?

What puzzles me is what beneficial result could possibly result from
the march(es). Does anyone think that a march in solidarity of any
position would, in any way, change the thinking of those with opposing
views?

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 5:38:10 AM UTC+5:30, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 20:57:16 +0100, Silvano
> <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
> >Sam Plusnet hat am 23.11.2023 um 19:45 geschrieben:
> >> But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
> >> antisemitism wherever it might be found?
> >>
> >> I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.
> >
> >
> >What's the difference? Does anyone think that antisemitism in France is
> >bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?
> What puzzles me is what beneficial result could possibly result from
> the march(es). Does anyone think that a march in solidarity of any
> position would, in any way, change the thinking of those with opposing
> views?
> --
'French march against anti-Semitism in France' would explain it better. But
that would lengthen the headline going against the dictum of keeping
headlines short. Europeans would probably understand what the
headline means but I'm not sure that Indians would; TOI is an Indian
newspaper.

The purpose of the marches was probably to encourage the French
government to combat anti-Semitism in France and warn anti-Semites in
France to not expect free rein. That is, while the marchers may well oppose
anti-Semitism everywhere, their activism was directed against
anti-Semitism in France.

On 24/11/23 11:08, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 20:57:16 +0100, Silvano
> <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
>> Sam Plusnet hat am 23.11.2023 um 19:45 geschrieben:
>>> But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
>>> antisemitism wherever it might be found?
>>>
>>> I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.
>>
>> What's the difference? Does anyone think that antisemitism in France is
>> bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?
>
> What puzzles me is what beneficial result could possibly result from
> the march(es). Does anyone think that a march in solidarity of any
> position would, in any way, change the thinking of those with opposing
> views?

The goal is to influence the policies on one's own government.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 11:28:52 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 24/11/23 11:08, TonyCooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 20:57:16 +0100, Silvano
>> <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>
>>> Sam Plusnet hat am 23.11.2023 um 19:45 geschrieben:
>>>> But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
>>>> antisemitism wherever it might be found?
>>>>
>>>> I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.
>>>
>>> What's the difference? Does anyone think that antisemitism in France is
>>> bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?
>>
>> What puzzles me is what beneficial result could possibly result from
>> the march(es). Does anyone think that a march in solidarity of any
>> position would, in any way, change the thinking of those with opposing
>> views?
>
>The goal is to influence the policies on one's own government.

Antisemitism is a state of mind. A government can implement policies
that deal with actions, but not policies that can change a person's
state of mind.

A government can, for example, implement a law that increases the
severity of laws dealing with antisemitic actions such as defacing a
synagogue. The law, however, would not make the person who might
deface the synagogue any less antisemetic.

I read a few articles on the march(es) in France. I saw nothing in
the articles about what the protesters want the government to do.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

On 2023-11-23 18:59, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 11:28:52 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 24/11/23 11:08, TonyCooper wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 20:57:16 +0100, Silvano
>>> <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sam Plusnet hat am 23.11.2023 um 19:45 geschrieben:
>>>>> But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
>>>>> antisemitism wherever it might be found?
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.
>>>>
>>>> What's the difference? Does anyone think that antisemitism in France is
>>>> bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?
>>>
>>> What puzzles me is what beneficial result could possibly result from
>>> the march(es). Does anyone think that a march in solidarity of any
>>> position would, in any way, change the thinking of those with opposing
>>> views?
>>
>> The goal is to influence the policies on one's own government.
>
> Antisemitism is a state of mind. A government can implement policies
> that deal with actions, but not policies that can change a person's
> state of mind.
>
> A government can, for example, implement a law that increases the
> severity of laws dealing with antisemitic actions such as defacing a
> synagogue. The law, however, would not make the person who might
> deface the synagogue any less antisemetic.

Was 'antisemetic' a typo or were you influenced by the many newsies who
seem to want to pronounce it as if it was spelled that way?

> I read a few articles on the march(es) in France. I saw nothing in
> the articles about what the protesters want the government to do.

--
What was the greatest thing before sliced bread?

On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 6:35:39 AM UTC+5:30, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2023-11-23 18:59, TonyCooper wrote:

> Was 'antisemetic' a typo or were you influenced by the many newsies who
> seem to want to pronounce it as if it was spelled that way?
>
Antesemitic is a hypothetical (conceivable) word of interest to me
because I'm hard put to imagine how to distinguish in pronunciation
words distinguished only by their prefixes Ante vs Anti.
>
> > I read a few articles on the march(es) in France. I saw nothing in
> > the articles about what the protesters want the government to do.
>
> --
> What was the greatest thing before sliced bread?
>
A trencher. Nothing gets more eco-friendly than a plate one can eat after
eating off it.
>
The greatest thing that came out of sliced bread was invented by the Earl
of Sandwich.

Dingbat wrote:

> The greatest thing that came out of sliced bread was invented by the Earl
> of Sandwich.

I wouldn't want to eat a piece of bread that anything comes out of.

--
Bertel, Denmark

On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 12:03:59 PM UTC+5:30, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Dingbat wrote:
>
> > The greatest thing that came out of sliced bread was invented by the Earl
> > of Sandwich.
> I wouldn't want to eat a piece of bread that anything comes out of.
>
That seems more like a pita pocket than a sandwich. As for the sandwich, a
roast beef sandwich beats a roast beef joint, IMHO, and those who dig BLT
sandwiches would be hard put to eat that combo without sliced bread.

On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 4:08:10 PM UTC-8, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 20:57:16 +0100, Silvano
> <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
> >Sam Plusnet hat am 23.11.2023 um 19:45 geschrieben:
> >> But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
> >> antisemitism wherever it might be found?
> >>
> >> I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.
> >
> >What's the difference? Does anyone think that antisemitism in France is
> >bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?

Of course not. But the degree of antisemitism ranges in time and place
from mild bigotry to genocide.

> What puzzles me is what beneficial result could possibly result from
> the march(es). Does anyone think that a march in solidarity of any
> position would, in any way, change the thinking of those with opposing
> views?

That's possible, but not automatically the case. Participants in such marches
are exercising their right to free speech, regardless of outcomes. I remember
in the early 1960s, marching to protest the Vietnam war. A few times, we had
no more than 20 or 30 people marching in the conservative city I lived in then.
But that was enough for us to experience the exhilaration of publicly exercising
our rights and expressing our views. And, ten years later, savouring the moment
when Richard Nixon had to admit that we were right and he was wrong.

bill

On 24/11/23 20:21, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 4:08:10 PM UTC-8, TonyCooper
> wrote:

>> What puzzles me is what beneficial result could possibly result
>> from the march(es). Does anyone think that a march in solidarity of
>> any position would, in any way, change the thinking of those with
>> opposing views?
>
> That's possible, but not automatically the case. Participants in such
> marches are exercising their right to free speech, regardless of
> outcomes. I remember in the early 1960s, marching to protest the
> Vietnam war. A few times, we had no more than 20 or 30 people
> marching in the conservative city I lived in then. But that was
> enough for us to experience the exhilaration of publicly exercising
> our rights and expressing our views. And, ten years later, savouring
> the moment when Richard Nixon had to admit that we were right and he
> was wrong.

I took part in those marches. A few years later, we got a government
that pulled the troops out of Vietnam, and let the conscientious
objectors out of jail. We didn't get an immediate result, but we got a
result.

Do those protestors represent enough votes to kick the current
government out of office? That's what the politicians take notice of.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

TonyCooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 20:57:16 +0100, Silvano
> <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
> >Sam Plusnet hat am 23.11.2023 um 19:45 geschrieben:
> >> But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
> >> antisemitism wherever it might be found?
> >>
> >> I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.
> >
> >
> >What's the difference? Does anyone think that antisemitism in France is
> >bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?
>
> What puzzles me is what beneficial result could possibly result from
> the march(es). Does anyone think that a march in solidarity of any
> position would, in any way, change the thinking of those with opposing
> views?

It is primarily self-reassurance,
with political effects in the second place,

Jan

In article <15qvli1nd9cpgiv6fmge5jmhc25oigrfse@4ax.com>,
tonycooper214@gmail.com says...
>
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 20:57:16 +0100, Silvano
> <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
> >Sam Plusnet hat am 23.11.2023 um 19:45 geschrieben:
> >> But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
> >> antisemitism wherever it might be found?
> >>
> >> I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.
> >
> >
> >What's the difference? Does anyone think that antisemitism in France is
> >bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?
>
> What puzzles me is what beneficial result could possibly result from
> the march(es). Does anyone think that a march in solidarity of any
> position would, in any way, change the thinking of those with opposing
> views?

It can influence policy makers.

Janet

On 23-Nov-23 19:57, Silvano wrote:
> Sam Plusnet hat am 23.11.2023 um 19:45 geschrieben:
>> But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
>> antisemitism wherever it might be found?
>>
>> I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.
>
>
> What's the difference? Does anyone think that antisemitism in France is
> bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?

The point of the discussion was an ambiguous headline.

As written, it would be easy to interpret the march(es) as objecting to
antisemitism in France alone.

I don't think anyone involved in the discussion was arguing the merits
of antisemitism - which you seem to have assumed.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 24-Nov-23 6:33, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Dingbat wrote:
>
>> The greatest thing that came out of sliced bread was invented by the Earl
>> of Sandwich.
>
> I wouldn't want to eat a piece of bread that anything comes out of.

Crumbs!

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet hat am 24.11.2023 um 20:14 geschrieben:
> On 23-Nov-23 19:57, Silvano wrote:
>> Sam Plusnet hat am 23.11.2023 um 19:45 geschrieben:
>>> But was it a protest against purely French antisemitism? Or
>>> antisemitism wherever it might be found?
>>>
>>> I thought that was the question Mr Bat was raising.
>>
>>
>> What's the difference? Does anyone think that antisemitism in France is
>> bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?
>
> The point of the discussion was an ambiguous headline.
>
> As written, it would be easy to interpret the march(es) as objecting to
> antisemitism in France alone.
>
> I don't think anyone involved in the discussion was arguing the merits
> of antisemitism - which you seem to have assumed.

No, I haven't. But I do assume that no one would protest against purely
French antisemitism. Either you protest against antisemitism everywhere,
as the marchers did, or you don't.

Dingbat hat am 23.11.2023 um 01:30 geschrieben:
> 180k march against antisemitism in France | Times of India*
>
> How should one parse the headline before reading the article? Was there
> a march against antisemitism in just France? Or was there a march against
> antisemitism everywhere, with the march occurring in France? Is there a
> way to write a headline precisely enough to tell which of the two it is?
>
> * <https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/180000-protesters-march-against-antisemitism-in-france/articleshow/105425248.cms>

Your question is IMNSHO absurd for the reason I already explained. (Does
anyone think that antisemitism in France is
bad, but antisemitism in Germany, the UK, the US or anywhere else is OK?)

Anyway, I'd suggest "180k march in France against antisemitism".