Hi,

Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.

But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.

Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
plain http as I typed?

I'm not going to ditch a printer or whatever just because it doesn't do
https...

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 21 Dec 2023 21:19:42 +0100 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
>local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
>switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
>
>But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
>because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
>
>Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
>plain http as I typed?
>
>I'm not going to ditch a printer or whatever just because it doesn't do
>https...

Do you have Fx set to 'https only'?
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

On 2023-12-21 21:38, Dave Royal wrote:
> On 21 Dec 2023 21:19:42 +0100 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
>> local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
>> switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
>>
>> But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
>> because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
>>
>> Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
>> plain http as I typed?
>>
>> I'm not going to ditch a printer or whatever just because it doesn't do
>> https...
>
> Do you have Fx set to 'https only'?

Nope.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 21 Dec 2023 22:20:19 +0100 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>On 2023-12-21 21:38, Dave Royal wrote:
>> On 21 Dec 2023 21:19:42 +0100 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
>>> local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
>>> switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
>>>
>>> But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
>>> because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
>>>
>>> Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
>>> plain http as I typed?
>>>
>>> I'm not going to ditch a printer or whatever just because it doesn't do
>>> https...
>>
>> Do you have Fx set to 'https only'?
>
>Nope.

Well the obvious way is to call the printer or whatever again, from a
bookmark using http.

The reason I asked about 'http only' is that I have it set (Fx for
Android) and with an http device on my LAN (my RPi music player) it
creates a permanent exception to use http. Whether, if that device were
unavailable, it would try https or stick with http, I don't know. You
could try it.

But it sounds like a trivial problem.
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

| Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
| local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
| switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
| | But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
| because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
|

I had that problem with my router. Somehow it got set to
accept http only and I couldn't figure a way to get Firefox
to get through. It should be an obvious 2nd try, but it
doesn't work that way. I ended up botting into a backup
running old FF and that worked. So that's one possibility.
If you only occasionally need to load that page you could
keep an old browser installed for the purpose.

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
> local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
> switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
>
> But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
> because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
>
> Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
> plain http as I typed?
>
> I'm not going to ditch a printer or whatever just because it doesn't do
> https...

Perhaps FF tried https after http failed. A site running https does not
have to accept http connects. Typically they would redirect http
connects to https, but that's not mandated, just their choice to catch
users first visiting http even though that page doesn't exist.

So, I'm wondering if the local web cache in FF is still trying to use
https which it tried 2nd on the fail after the http connect attempt.
Instead of wandering through the menus to get to the history clear
dialog, hit Ctrl+Shift+Del to bring up the Clear All History dialog.
Likely you just have to clear the local web cache.

When you say you tried "retry", just what is that? I don't see any web
page retry option. There is F5 to reload (cache is picked first) or
Ctrl+F5 (force a new load from the server, cached web pages not used).

If you never want FF to reuse cached web pages, go into about:config to
change:

browser.cache.check_doc_frequency

to

1

Then the latest files and images get downloaded every time you request a
web page. If you ever designed your own web pages, and you change a web
page, you'll find the cache in web browsers may be showing you an old
page. You have to force the web browser to get new web docs instead of
reusing the cached ones. Of course, using locally cached web pages
means they render faster than having to re-download anew the same page.

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.cache.check_doc_frequency

Instead I just hit Ctrl+F5 if F5 doesn't work. Often it doesn't take
long to re-download a web page, but sometimes it does, like when the web
server is heavily loaded, so I leave caching enabled.

Carlos E.R. wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
> local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
> switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
>
> But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
> because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
>
> Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
> plain http as I typed?

Try altering in about:config:
browser.fixup.alternate.enabled to "true" and
browser.fixup.alternate.protocol to "http"

On 2023-12-22 00:17, VanguardLH wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
>> local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
>> switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
>>
>> But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
>> because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
>>
>> Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
>> plain http as I typed?
>>
>> I'm not going to ditch a printer or whatever just because it doesn't do
>> https...
>
> Perhaps FF tried https after http failed.

Yes. I don't want it to try https and just obey what I typed.

Oh, if I type the name of the computer in the LAN, it goes and asks
google, which also are not my orders. I have to type instead:

http://machine.lan

> A site running https does not
> have to accept http connects. Typically they would redirect http
> connects to https, but that's not mandated, just their choice to catch
> users first visiting http even though that page doesn't exist.
>
> So, I'm wondering if the local web cache in FF is still trying to use
> https which it tried 2nd on the fail after the http connect attempt.
> Instead of wandering through the menus to get to the history clear
> dialog, hit Ctrl+Shift+Del to bring up the Clear All History dialog.

Sorry, I do not want to clear the history, that is disruptive.

> Likely you just have to clear the local web cache.
>
> When you say you tried "retry", just what is that?

Hit the retry button in FF:

Unable to connect

An error occurred during a connection to nimrodel.valinor.

The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in
a few moments.
If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer’s network
connection.
If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy,
make sure that Firefox is permitted to access the web.

[Try Again]

....

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-12-22 00:49, Frank Miller wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
>> local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
>> switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
>>
>> But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
>> because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
>>
>> Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
>> plain http as I typed?
>
> Try altering in about:config:
> browser.fixup.alternate.enabled to "true" and
> browser.fixup.alternate.protocol to "http"

Ok, done.

I typed:

http://machine.lan

it tried that, then it tried

https://machine.lan

then it said unable to connect, try again? As always. And left the entry
box on https.

Thanks anyway.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-12-22 11:59, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-12-22 00:49, Frank Miller wrote:
>> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan ," rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
>>> local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
>>> switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
>>>
>>> But firefox retries <https://machine.lan ," rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
>>> because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
>>>
>>> Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
>>> plain http as I typed?
>>
>> Try altering in about:config:
>> browser.fixup.alternate.enabled to "true" and
>> browser.fixup.alternate.protocol to "http"
>
> Ok, done.
>
> I typed:
>
> http://machine.lan
>
> it tried that, then it tried
>
> https://machine.lan
>
> then it said unable to connect, try again? As always. And left the entry
> box on https.
>
> Thanks anyway.

I got another suggestion that works:

browser.fixup.fallback-to-https = false

but we wonder if it may have "consequences".

Another person found it here:

https://superuser.com/questions/1721511/firefox-allow-http-urls-and-not-force-https

The site also suggests to use the IP numbers instead of the name, it
also doesn't try https.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 21 Dec 2023 21:35:11 -0000 (UTC) Dave Royal wrote:
>On 21 Dec 2023 22:20:19 +0100 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>On 2023-12-21 21:38, Dave Royal wrote:
>>> On 21 Dec 2023 21:19:42 +0100 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
>>>> local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
>>>> switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
>>>>
>>>> But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
>>>> because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
>>>> plain http as I typed?
>>>>
>>>> I'm not going to ditch a printer or whatever just because it doesn't do
>>>> https...
>>>
>>> Do you have Fx set to 'https only'?
>>
>>Nope.
>
>Well the obvious way is to call the printer or whatever again, from a
>bookmark using http.
>
>The reason I asked about 'http only' is that I have it set (Fx for
>Android) and with an http device on my LAN (my RPi music player) it
>creates a permanent exception to use http. Whether, if that device were
>unavailable, it would try https or stick with http, I don't know. You
>could try it.
>
>But it sounds like a trivial problem.

Hmmmm. Obviously not such a trivial problem.

I only set http-only a week ago. I haven't (yet) found any disadvantages
of doing so. I wondered if I could get this situation. I'm using Fx
Android.

I access stuff on my LAN using the device name in my router (a UK BT Home
Hub), which defaults to the device's network name and I can change. So my
RPi is 'pi' and the printer 'printer' (instead of the default
Brother-HL-L2375W). I don't know if most routers can resolve device names
like that; I used to have to use a hosts file or, on mobile, the IP
address.

I enter http://printer/
I get something like 'Secure site not available. Most likely it doesn't
support https. If you continue https will be turned off temporarily.
Continue to the http site?' I continue and get the printer status page.
I clear cache and tabs and close Fx.
I turn the printer off, open Fx, and enter the same URL.
I get the same warning, continue to http, and get 'Unable to connect'.
I turn on the printer, hit 'Try again', and get the status page.

So the http exception is temporary, not permanent as I thought.
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan ," rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
>>> local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
>>> switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
>>>
>>> But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
>>> because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
>>>
>>> Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
>>> plain http as I typed?
>>>
>>> I'm not going to ditch a printer or whatever just because it doesn't do
>>> https...
>>
>> Perhaps FF tried https after http failed.
>
> Yes. I don't want it to try https and just obey what I typed.
>
> Oh, if I type the name of the computer in the LAN, it goes and asks
> google, which also are not my orders. I have to type instead:
>
> http://machine.lan

Text that contains a period with no spaces, like machine.lan, has
Firefox check if a domain is specified before searching. intel.com has
FF go to the site instead of search on it. machine.lan doesn't have a
valid TLD (top-level domain).

https://www.iana.org/domains/root/db
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_top-level_domains

Does your hosts file have an entry for machine.lan, so FF can get its IP
address?

I suspect that's the address bar acting as a search bar, too. Even if
you go into about:config to set browser.urlbar.suggest.searches to
False, that just eliminates the popup drop-down "suggestions" list that
appears as you type in the address bar. I think you need to set:

keyword.enabled = False

to eliminate non-URL strings to not get searched for using whatever is
the default search engine in Firefox.

With keyword.enable=true (default), entering "intel" in the addressbar
does a search. With keyword.enabled=false, "intel" in the addressbar
gives a DNS resolver error. The same with specifying machine.lan in the
address bar: keyword.enabled=true does a search, keyword.enabled=false
gives DNS resolver error (I have no such entry in the hosts file).

You might also have to play with the following settings:

browser.fixup.alternate.enabled (*)
browser.fixup.alternate.protocol
browser.fixup.alternate.prefix
browser.fixup.alternate.suffix
(*) Don't know if this is still supported/honored.

to get Firefox to stop making guesses on how to auto-complete what it
thinks is an incomplete URL. However, I thought the fixups only worked
on http, not for https, and only if keyword.enabled=false. Yep,
sometimes FF helps too much.

Sorry, I don't of a "Retry" button or menu entry in Firefox. Maybe
you're thinking of the back-circle icon to the left of the address bar,
but that's for reloading the cached version of the web page (same as
hitting Ctrl+R or F5). Did you instead try forcing a new download (do
NOT used a cached copy) using Ctrl+F5 or Ctrl+Shift+R? Ctrl+R, F5, or
using the toolbar icon refreshes the page by getting the cached copy,
and why you don't lose your place in the web doc. In contrast, Ctrl+F5
or Ctrl+Shift+F5 re-downloads the page from the server, and why you jump
to the start of the web doc.

Maybe the retry you mention is the "Try again" button in a connection
failure dialog shown in Firefox (e.g., "The connection has timed out").
If you escape that dialog (don't try again), and instead hit Ctrl+F5 or
Ctrl+Shift+R, does the new attempt to connect work okay?

Under about:preferences#privacy -> HTTPS-mode Only, which setting did
you select?

VanguardLH wrote:

> machine.lan doesn't have a valid TLD (top-level domain).

..lan is a valid domain here (my local router runs a dns zone for it) a
query for machine.lan may also be answered by mDNS responders, I doubt
firefox contains a list of TLDs?

On 2023-12-22 22:57, VanguardLH wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Suppose I have to open <http://machine.lan ," rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://machine.lan>, which is some machine on my
>>>> local LAN, that happens to be offline this minute. I flick its power
>>>> switch, and hit "retry" on firefox.
>>>>
>>>> But firefox retries <https://machine.lan>, which will not respond
>>>> because that machine is old and doesn't respond on https.
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible to tell firefox to not retry on https, but keep using
>>>> plain http as I typed?
>>>>
>>>> I'm not going to ditch a printer or whatever just because it doesn't do
>>>> https...
>>>
>>> Perhaps FF tried https after http failed.
>>
>> Yes. I don't want it to try https and just obey what I typed.
>>
>> Oh, if I type the name of the computer in the LAN, it goes and asks
>> google, which also are not my orders. I have to type instead:
>>
>> http://machine.lan
>
> Text that contains a period with no spaces, like machine.lan, has
> Firefox check if a domain is specified before searching. intel.com has
> FF go to the site instead of search on it. machine.lan doesn't have a
> valid TLD (top-level domain).
>
> https://www.iana.org/domains/root/db
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_top-level_domains
>
> Does your hosts file have an entry for machine.lan, so FF can get its IP
> address?

I run my own local DNS so that the domain does resolve.

I also hate FF trying to outsmart me and searching on the string I type,
instead of just asking the dns for whatever I type, then error out if it
doesn't exist, period.

If I want to search, I'll use the search box, thanks.

>
> I suspect that's the address bar acting as a search bar, too. Even if
> you go into about:config to set browser.urlbar.suggest.searches to
> False, that just eliminates the popup drop-down "suggestions" list that
> appears as you type in the address bar. I think you need to set:
>
> keyword.enabled = False
>
> to eliminate non-URL strings to not get searched for using whatever is
> the default search engine in Firefox.
>
> With keyword.enable=true (default), entering "intel" in the addressbar
> does a search. With keyword.enabled=false, "intel" in the addressbar
> gives a DNS resolver error. The same with specifying machine.lan in the
> address bar: keyword.enabled=true does a search, keyword.enabled=false
> gives DNS resolver error (I have no such entry in the hosts file).
>
> You might also have to play with the following settings:
>
> browser.fixup.alternate.enabled (*)
> browser.fixup.alternate.protocol
> browser.fixup.alternate.prefix
> browser.fixup.alternate.suffix
> (*) Don't know if this is still supported/honored.
>
> to get Firefox to stop making guesses on how to auto-complete what it
> thinks is an incomplete URL. However, I thought the fixups only worked
> on http, not for https, and only if keyword.enabled=false. Yep,
> sometimes FF helps too much.

Indeed.

> Sorry, I don't of a "Retry" button or menu entry in Firefox.

Retry appears in the text FF prints in the window when the site failed.
But as it has changed hhtp to https, the retry will fail and I have to
edit the text in the bar again before trying again.

> Maybe
> you're thinking of the back-circle icon to the left of the address bar,

no.

> but that's for reloading the cached version of the web page (same as
> hitting Ctrl+R or F5). Did you instead try forcing a new download (do
> NOT used a cached copy) using Ctrl+F5 or Ctrl+Shift+R? Ctrl+R, F5, or
> using the toolbar icon refreshes the page by getting the cached copy,
> and why you don't lose your place in the web doc. In contrast, Ctrl+F5
> or Ctrl+Shift+F5 re-downloads the page from the server, and why you jump
> to the start of the web doc.

no.

>
> Maybe the retry you mention is the "Try again" button in a connection
> failure dialog shown in Firefox (e.g., "The connection has timed out").
> If you escape that dialog (don't try again), and instead hit Ctrl+F5 or
> Ctrl+Shift+R, does the new attempt to connect work okay?

Not a dialog.

>
> Under about:preferences#privacy -> HTTPS-mode Only, which setting did
> you select?

I selected "no".

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-12-24 08:23, VanguardLH wrote:
> keyword.enabled=False did not help to eliminate the unwanted searching
> when entering machine.lan in the address bar?

Yes, that appears to stop the searching, while
"browser.fixup.fallback-to-https = false" seems to disable changing http
to https.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

keyword.enabled=False did not help to eliminate the unwanted searching
when entering machine.lan in the address bar?