Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>>> Instead just disable location services in Firefox by setting geo.enabled
>>>
>>> google maps still knows where I am when not logged-into a google
>>> account, using one of my public IP addrs that is normally unused (and is
>>> not associated with me any finer-grained than as a block of 2048 IPs).
>>
>> Guess I missed where the discussion moved from Firefox to Google Maps.
>
> I'm fairly sure you're aware of a different geolocation discussion in
> the windows10/11 groups.
>
>> Those are separate apps.
>
> One is a website, rendered by the other.
>
>> Each can do its own thing regarding location. Each app must have its
>> own calls to the Google Maps API. What Firefox is doing will not
>> match what Google Maps is doing
>
> google maps shouldn't be able to do anything beyond what firefox allows
> it to do, it should be up to me to control what is allowed.
>
>> will not match was some car parking finder app does and so on. I am
>> not aware that any app requires a Google account in order to use the
>> Maps API, or any other Google API.
>>
>> https://console.cloud.google.com/apis/library
>>
>> All the app needs is Internet access to call the API from the Google
>> server.
>>
>> As for the Google Maps app, and besides the offline maps you can save
>> for a region, there is some caching of where you are. Else, the app
>> couldn't tell you when a turn is coming up before you reach the turn.
>>
>> You could go into Android settings -> Apps
>
> Not discussing android at all, but google maps on a PC.
>
> Though I'm aware that a "companion" phone may report GPS/wifi/cell-tower
> location, and be associated through a common google account to allow the
> PC to have strong hints of its location.
>
>> select the Maps app, and
>> remove the location permission from the app to see if the Maps app has
>> any value without it knowing your location. Not sure how well you could
>> drive your car while blindfolded, either.
>
> I don't necessarily object to apps "knowing" where I am, providing that
> I can have control over it, so far I have ...
>
> logged out of google account
> disabled windows location service
> blocked google maps access to location data from firefox
> changed my IP address
> disabled geo.enabled in firefox
>
> And *STILL* google maps in firefox is able to know where I am ... at
> which point, firefox has gone beyond what I wish to allow!

Sorry, when I see "Google Maps" my mind jumped to the app, not to the
web site.

At maps.google.com and using Firefox 115 on Windows, there is still the
Timeline feature showing where you've been. That history does not show
when you used the web site to find a place. It's for the app when
tracking where you've been (not your routes, but your stops). I can
enter dozens of addresses to have the site show me where they are, but
those are not added to Timeline. Those are added to a MRU list the site
maintains for your account.

Enter "disneyworld orlando" as a destination at their web site. It
shows the location. It is not added to your Timeline. Click on
"Directions" to see the routes between you and the destination. Still
not shown in your Timeline. Exit your web browser, but have it purge
all locally cached data: cookies, Web Storage, site preferences, etc.
Reload your web browser, and revisit maps.google.com. Voila, there in
the recent list under the searchbox is your request to find Disneyworld.
Do another test: don't login to maps.google.com. Exit your web browser
with it purging all locally cached data. Go to maps.google.com, but do
not login. Search on "disneyland california". Even click on
"Directions" to get routes from you to there. Exit your web browser,
again ensuring all locally cached data gets purged. Reload your web
browser to maps.google.com. In both instances where you loaded the site
but did not login, there was no MRU (most recently used) list showing
what you found before.

A site doesn't need to use cookies or Web Storage to remember what
queries you issued to it. They can cache that in your account. If you
don't login, they have no account to cache your searches.

Any site can use IP geolocation to estimate where you are. Doesn't
matter that you disabled geolocation services in your web browser. Use
the WAN-side IP address of your router or cable modem at the many sites
that show geolocation on IP. However, IP location is very inaccurate as
it shows from whose IP pool you got your IP address. Most currently
show me as 418 miles away from where I am, because my ISP's hub is in a
different city in a different state, and their DHCP server is assigning
my an IP address in that IP pool. Yes, you can change your IP address,
but its location won't change if it comes from the same IP pool.

From where are you connecting to maps.google.com? Your desktop PC at
home, a laptop at home or some wifi hotspot (e.g., Starbucks), or using
a web browser on your smartphone?

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

> From where are you connecting to maps.google.com? Your desktop PC at
> home, a laptop at home or some wifi hotspot (e.g., Starbucks), or using
> a web browser on your smartphone?

You may not be using the Google Maps app on your phone, but discussing
Firefox could still mean you are using the web browser on Android.

Just because a Google app is not shown in the Recent list does not mean
no Google app is still running in the background. You would need to use
a process manager, like a task killer, to list all user *and* system
processes to check if any are for Google. Also, there are Google
services running on your phone, like Google Play Services. If you
enabled the Find My Device feature, well, you asked Google to find your
phone. I've kept that enabled, because I really would like to find my
phone if lost, or disable it or wipe it if stolen.

If using Firefox on Android, have you *completely* de-Googled your
Android phone? Few do, because then they have to find non-Google
substitutes for all those services and features that would be lost. Tis
possible, but not often performed. I've never considered de-Googling my
Android phone mostly because I suspect the phone would need to be rooted
(unless using the ADB shell lets me remove both unremovable Google apps
along with all Google services). I'm not as paranoid as some, so I
don't have any motivation to de-Google my phone.

On 10/30/2023 7:34 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote

> The Geolocation API is a service that accepts an HTTPS request
> with the cell tower and WiFi access points that a mobile client
> can detect.

>> Each can do its own thing regarding location. Each app must have its
>> own calls to the Google Maps API. What Firefox is doing will not
>> match what Google Maps is doing
>
> google maps shouldn't be able to do anything beyond what firefox allows
> it to do, it should be up to me to control what is allowed.

Before you query the Google database, by default every phone for the past
half dozen years has been uploading your unique bssid & gps location to it.

Not only yours, but if you have neighbors (who doesn't?) then the google
and mozilla and netstumbler and wigle and all those geolocation databases
have not only your unique location and bssid, but all your neighbors too.

Any ip address lookup that knows one, knows them all (until you move).

VanguardLH wrote:

> A site doesn't need to use cookies or Web Storage to remember what
> queries you issued to it. They can cache that in your account.

Well aware of that, and not an issue for me.

> If you don't login, they have no account to cache your searches.

That's how it used to be, before when I logged out of google, and went
to maps, it knew I was in the UK, but didn't show my actual location,
log back in and it would show it again ... now even when I'm not logged
it shows where I am ... that's what I have an issue with ... it might
have been that they were only pretending not to know where I was before
.... if correct that was a good policy ...

Larry Wolff wrote:

> Before you query the Google database, by default every phone for the past
> half dozen years has been uploading your unique bssid & gps location to it.
>
> Not only yours, but if you have neighbors (who doesn't?) then the google
> and mozilla and netstumbler and wigle and all those geolocation databases
> have not only your unique location and bssid, but all your neighbors too.
>
> Any ip address lookup that knows one, knows them all (until you move).

Absolutely aware of that.

It's the *use* of location information exceeding what I allow in firefox
that concerns me ... other websites ask for permission to use location,
and unless I say yes, they don't get my location.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> A site doesn't need to use cookies or Web Storage to remember what
>> queries you issued to it. They can cache that in your account.
>
> Well aware of that, and not an issue for me.
>
>> If you don't login, they have no account to cache your searches.
>
> That's how it used to be, before when I logged out of google, and went
> to maps, it knew I was in the UK, but didn't show my actual location,
> log back in and it would show it again ... now even when I'm not logged
> it shows where I am ... that's what I have an issue with ... it might
> have been that they were only pretending not to know where I was before
> ... if correct that was a good policy ...

Have you tried the IP geolocation sites to see where they say you are?

On 30-10-2023 22:15, VanguardLH wrote:
> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>> From where are you connecting to maps.google.com? Your desktop PC at
>> home, a laptop at home or some wifi hotspot (e.g., Starbucks), or using
>> a web browser on your smartphone?
>
> You may not be using the Google Maps app on your phone, but discussing
> Firefox could still mean you are using the web browser on Android.
>
> Just because a Google app is not shown in the Recent list does not mean
> no Google app is still running in the background. You would need to use
> a process manager, like a task killer, to list all user *and* system
> processes to check if any are for Google. Also, there are Google
> services running on your phone, like Google Play Services. If you
> enabled the Find My Device feature, well, you asked Google to find your
> phone. I've kept that enabled, because I really would like to find my
> phone if lost, or disable it or wipe it if stolen.
>
> If using Firefox on Android, have you *completely* de-Googled your
> Android phone? Few do, because then they have to find non-Google
> substitutes for all those services and features that would be lost. Tis
> possible, but not often performed. I've never considered de-Googling my
> Android phone mostly because I suspect the phone would need to be rooted
> (unless using the ADB shell lets me remove both unremovable Google apps
> along with all Google services). I'm not as paranoid as some, so I
> don't have any motivation to de-Google my phone.
You could switch to /e/OS (if, of course, your phone is supported).

https://e.foundation/e-os/

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>Larry Wolff wrote:

>>Before you query the Google database, by default every phone for the past
>>half dozen years has been uploading your unique bssid & gps location to it.

>>Not only yours, but if you have neighbors (who doesn't?) then the google
>>and mozilla and netstumbler and wigle and all those geolocation databases
>>have not only your unique location and bssid, but all your neighbors too.

>>Any ip address lookup that knows one, knows them all (until you move).

>Absolutely aware of that.

>It's the *use* of location information exceeding what I allow in firefox
>that concerns me ... other websites ask for permission to use location,
>and unless I say yes, they don't get my location.

You gave them permission by sending them your IP. They can't serve the
page request without it. It's up to you to use an IP that cannot
geolocate your host, like a VPN's.

jjb <jjb@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> If using Firefox on Android, have you *completely* de-Googled your
>> Android phone? Few do, because then they have to find non-Google
>> substitutes for all those services and features that would be lost.
>> Tis possible, but not often performed. I've never considered
>> de-Googling my Android phone mostly because I suspect the phone
>> would need to be rooted (unless using the ADB shell lets me remove
>> both unremovable Google apps along with all Google services). I'm
>> not as paranoid as some, so I don't have any motivation to de-Google
>> my phone.
>
> You could switch to /e/OS (if, of course, your phone is supported).
>
> https://e.foundation/e-os/

LG is not in their compatible devices. Even if it were, my LG V20 is
c.2016 (when it was release), supported ended 2019, and LG left the
smartphone market around 2021. So, no OS updates for me. I'm stuck
back on Android 8.0.0, and have run into some apps that have updated
that require a later OS version, like the Google Voice app (no longer
supports per-contact ring tone). Was working, got an update, some
functionality lost.

https://doc.e.foundation/easy-installer#list-of-devices-supported-by-the-easy-installer
Only 21 devices listed. Not exactly a wide selection.

Had not heard of that one, but when I toyed with possibly rooting my
phone, I found other de-Googled OSes for my phone. I decided I wasn't
paranoid enough to waste all that time, and risk my only phone to an
experiment.

If I go the rooted and replace OS route, that'll be when I buy the next
smartphone, leave it as is, and experiment on my old one assuming I find
an alternate OS for this phone since it's so old (in phone years). Or I
could buy an already de-Googled phone (e.g., Murena with /e/OS) and it
becomes the experiment.

VanguardLH wrote:

> Have you tried the IP geolocation sites to see where they say you are?

All the ones which will show me without signing-up say London or Sheffield.

Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> You gave them permission by sending them your IP. They can't serve the
> page request without it. It's up to you to use an IP that cannot
> geolocate your host, like a VPN's.

So shall I submit a bug report to remove the location request options
from firefox settings?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>You gave them permission by sending them your IP. They can't serve the
>>page request without it. It's up to you to use an IP that cannot
>>geolocate your host, like a VPN's.

>So shall I submit a bug report to remove the location request options
>from firefox settings?

An IP address isn't geo-located because your host told them lat-long.
It's approximated from how your network assigns IPs within a
geographical area.

Nothing to do with your browser.

Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> An IP address isn't geo-located because your host told them lat-long.
> It's approximated from how your network assigns IPs within a
> geographical area.

For some ISPs, but my IPs could be transferred to any UK location.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>An IP address isn't geo-located because your host told them lat-long.
>>It's approximated from how your network assigns IPs within a
>>geographical area.

>For some ISPs, but my IPs could be transferred to any UK location.

That's entirely possible. Did you want Web sites to know what country
you are in?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Have you tried the IP geolocation sites to see where they say you are?
>
> All the ones which will show me without signing-up say London or Sheffield.

And that's no where you are?

How far away are those from where maps.google.com says you are (without
logging in to the site, and after purging all locally cached data)?

Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> Did you want Web sites to know what country you are in?

I'm OK with that, there's a clue in the ccTLD of the domain I use for
email and hosting images, if I wanted to hide I could use a thowaway
email address and a VPN.

On 11/1/2023 6:19 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

>> Did you want Web sites to know what country you are in?
>
> I'm OK with that, there's a clue in the ccTLD of the domain I use for
> email and hosting images, if I wanted to hide I could use a thowaway
> email address and a VPN.

I understand that most phones upload your unique AP MAC & GPS location to a
Google geolocation database & also that your IP address can be geolocated.

But does that Google AP location database contain your IP address location?

On this Wed, 1 Nov 2023 10:19:55 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> I'm OK with that, there's a clue in the ccTLD of the domain I use for
> email and hosting images, if I wanted to hide I could use a thowaway
> email address and a VPN.

This says it can trace the geolocation of where an email came from.
https://whatismyipaddress.com/trace-email

And this says where the combination of location databases comes from.
https://whatismyipaddress.com/geolocation

Here is a comprehensive geolocation guide for beginners.
https://www.ipxo.com/blog/what-is-ip-geolocation/

On 10/24/23 17:01, Johnny wrote:
>
> Why does Firefox want me to use Cloudflare as my DNS server, is Firefox
> being paid for this
>
>
> AT&T is my DNS server, and today I ran in to a problem when searching
> with DuckDuckgo, and got the message to check with Cloudflare to find
> out what the problem is.
>
> I had to go into settings change my DNS server back to AT&T.
>

This may be completely unrelated but I too was asking myself WTF does
Cloudflare have to do with MY traffic?

I received what looked like an undelivered-email alert and I was certain
it was an error message either from my ISP or from another server admin
in the chain. So I clicked on the link (something I never do) and got to
an unintelligible cloudflare blurb about my email to a support list not
meeting cloudflare standards or something along those lines. Having been
blacklisted a while back I was pretty touchy so I emailed my ISP, it was
that admin who considered the email I had received as probably some spam
or malware attempt (gave me shit for having clicked the link.