I often ponder the difference between road and railway utilisation. As I’ve
mentioned before, the ECML at Berwick often seems thinly used. I often walk
past the MML in the East Midlands and that also seems to have a passing
train only every 10 or 15 minutes. In contrast the M1 and A1 appear to be
at capacity much of the time. Lots of expensive railway capital
infrastructure being underused?

Tweed wrote:

> I often ponder the difference between road and railway utilisation. As I’ve
> mentioned before, the ECML at Berwick often seems thinly used. I often walk
> past the MML in the East Midlands and that also seems to have a passing
> train only every 10 or 15 minutes. In contrast the M1 and A1 appear to be
> at capacity much of the time. Lots of expensive railway capital
> infrastructure being underused?

Still Newcastle and Edinburgh might be congested,
for rail and road infrastructure. And maybe it does
not pay to run more trains even with free slots as
there is more demand between London and Newcastle?

And 6 or 4 tph is not that scarse. Did you mean per
direction, by the way?

And what about morning and afternoon peaks?

Regards, ULF

ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
> Tweed wrote:
>
> > I often ponder the difference between road and railway utilisation. As I’ve
> > mentioned before, the ECML at Berwick often seems thinly used. I often walk
> > past the MML in the East Midlands and that also seems to have a passing
> > train only every 10 or 15 minutes. In contrast the M1 and A1 appear to be
> > at capacity much of the time. Lots of expensive railway capital
> > infrastructure being underused?
>
>
> Still Newcastle and Edinburgh might be congested,
> for rail and road infrastructure. And maybe it does
> not pay to run more trains even with free slots as
> there is more demand between London and Newcastle?

Indeed - in any network some parts are less used than others. If you tried
to fill up every branch the trunk would be overwhelmed. Typically it's the
junctions which are actually the capacity constraint. Additionally a
railway with traffic at different speeds has more gaps and lower capacity as
faster trains catch up slower ones.

The M1 and A1 being busy just goes to show how inefficient cars are: if a
train can carry 500 people and you get one every 10 minutes, that's 3000
people per hour. If they were all driving cars that would be almost one car
per second. One looks like a super congested road, the other is an 'empty'
railway.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>> Tweed wrote:
>>
>>> I often ponder the difference between road and railway utilisation. As I’ve
>>> mentioned before, the ECML at Berwick often seems thinly used. I often walk
>>> past the MML in the East Midlands and that also seems to have a passing
>>> train only every 10 or 15 minutes. In contrast the M1 and A1 appear to be
>>> at capacity much of the time. Lots of expensive railway capital
>>> infrastructure being underused?
>>
>>
>> Still Newcastle and Edinburgh might be congested,
>> for rail and road infrastructure. And maybe it does
>> not pay to run more trains even with free slots as
>> there is more demand between London and Newcastle?
>
> Indeed - in any network some parts are less used than others. If you tried
> to fill up every branch the trunk would be overwhelmed. Typically it's the
> junctions which are actually the capacity constraint. Additionally a
> railway with traffic at different speeds has more gaps and lower capacity as
> faster trains catch up slower ones.

That's a good point: a double-track railway will look emptier than a
four-track railway.

But, in general, the further you get from London, the fewer the rail
passengers.

>
> The M1 and A1 being busy just goes to show how inefficient cars are: if a
> train can carry 500 people and you get one every 10 minutes, that's 3000
> people per hour. If they were all driving cars that would be almost one car
> per second. One looks like a super congested road, the other is an 'empty'
> railway.

That's true, but a lot of our trains are much shorter, and lightly loaded,
so trains are more likely to be carrying 50 than 500 people.

In message <umx*RBEIz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:29:48 on Tue,
23 Apr 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>> Tweed wrote:
>>
>> > I often ponder the difference between road and railway utilisation.
>> >As I’ve
>> > mentioned before, the ECML at Berwick often seems thinly used. I often walk
>> > past the MML in the East Midlands and that also seems to have a passing
>> > train only every 10 or 15 minutes. In contrast the M1 and A1 appear to be
>> > at capacity much of the time. Lots of expensive railway capital
>> > infrastructure being underused?
>>
>> Still Newcastle and Edinburgh might be congested,
>> for rail and road infrastructure. And maybe it does
>> not pay to run more trains even with free slots as
>> there is more demand between London and Newcastle?
>
>Indeed - in any network some parts are less used than others. If you tried
>to fill up every branch the trunk would be overwhelmed. Typically it's the
>junctions which are actually the capacity constraint.

Or for the MML in the East Midlands, the number of platforms at St
Pancras.

> Additionally a railway with traffic at different speeds has more gaps
>and lower capacity as faster trains catch up slower ones.
>
>The M1 and A1 being busy just goes to show how inefficient cars are: if a
>train can carry 500 people

A 5-car Voyager, which is longer than many typical trains (cf 2-car
Sprinters, 3-car TurboStars and numerous 4-car EMU) has 246 seats.

>and you get one every 10 minutes,

But they are rarely full, and on longer distance routes rarely run more
than 2tph (with 1tph being commonplace).

>that's 3000 people per hour.

>If they were all driving cars

And without passengers

>that would be almost one car per second.

But there's usually three lanes.

>One looks like a super congested road, the other is an 'empty'
>railway.

I think you need a much more realistic basis of comparison.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <umx*RBEIz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:29:48 on Tue,
> 23 Apr 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>> Tweed wrote:
>>>
>>> > I often ponder the difference between road and railway utilisation.
>>> >As I’ve
>>> > mentioned before, the ECML at Berwick often seems thinly used. I often walk
>>> > past the MML in the East Midlands and that also seems to have a passing
>>> > train only every 10 or 15 minutes. In contrast the M1 and A1 appear to be
>>> > at capacity much of the time. Lots of expensive railway capital
>>> > infrastructure being underused?
>>>
>>> Still Newcastle and Edinburgh might be congested,
>>> for rail and road infrastructure. And maybe it does
>>> not pay to run more trains even with free slots as
>>> there is more demand between London and Newcastle?
>>
>>Indeed - in any network some parts are less used than others. If you tried
>>to fill up every branch the trunk would be overwhelmed. Typically it's the
>>junctions which are actually the capacity constraint.

> Or for the MML in the East Midlands, the number of platforms at St
> Pancras.

>> Additionally a railway with traffic at different speeds has more gaps
>>and lower capacity as faster trains catch up slower ones.
>>
>>The M1 and A1 being busy just goes to show how inefficient cars are: if a
>>train can carry 500 people

> A 5-car Voyager, which is longer than many typical trains (cf 2-car
> Sprinters, 3-car TurboStars and numerous 4-car EMU) has 246 seats.

as you wrote St. Pancas, what is the typical length
of passenger trains originating there and seen on
the MML in the East Midlands? Do they shorten trains
on the way?

Regards, ULF

On 23/04/2024 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <umx*RBEIz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:29:48 on Tue,
> 23 Apr 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>> Tweed wrote:
>>>
>>> > I often ponder the difference between road and railway utilisation.
>>> >As I’ve
>>> > mentioned before, the ECML at Berwick often seems thinly used. I
>>> often walk
>>> > past the MML in the East Midlands and that also seems to have a
>>> passing
>>> > train only every 10 or 15 minutes. In contrast the M1 and A1 appear
>>> to be
>>> > at capacity much of the time. Lots of expensive railway capital
>>> > infrastructure being underused?
>>>
>>> Still Newcastle and Edinburgh might be congested,
>>> for rail and road infrastructure. And maybe it does
>>> not pay to run more trains even with free slots as
>>> there is more demand between London and Newcastle?
>>
>> Indeed - in any network some parts are less used than others.  If you
>> tried
>> to fill up every branch the trunk would be overwhelmed.  Typically
>> it's the
>> junctions which are actually the capacity constraint.
>
> Or for the MML in the East Midlands, the number of platforms at St Pancras.
>
>> Additionally a railway with traffic at different speeds has more gaps
>> and lower capacity as faster trains catch up slower ones.
>>
>> The M1 and A1 being busy just goes to show how inefficient cars are: if a
>> train can carry 500 people
>
> A 5-car Voyager, which is longer than many typical trains (cf 2-car
> Sprinters, 3-car TurboStars and numerous 4-car EMU) has 246 seats.
>
>> and you get one every 10 minutes,
>
> But they are rarely full, and on longer distance routes rarely run more
> than 2tph (with 1tph being commonplace).
>
>> that's 3000 people per hour.
>
>> If they were all driving cars
>
> And without passengers
>
>> that would be almost one car per second.
>
> But there's usually three lanes.

The advisory gap (which no one ever leaves) between vehicles is two
seconds. If the vehicles all travel at the same speed and arrive at
exact one-second intervals then we have one car per three seconds in
each lane: two-thirds of maximum capacity. Returning to the real world,
many parts of the road will be congested at full capacity.

>> One looks like a super congested road, the other is an 'empty'
>> railway.
>
> I think you need a much more realistic basis of comparison.

ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
> Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> In message <umx*RBEIz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:29:48 on Tue,
>> 23 Apr 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>>> Tweed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I often ponder the difference between road and railway utilisation.
>>>>> As I’ve
>>>>> mentioned before, the ECML at Berwick often seems thinly used. I often walk
>>>>> past the MML in the East Midlands and that also seems to have a passing
>>>>> train only every 10 or 15 minutes. In contrast the M1 and A1 appear to be
>>>>> at capacity much of the time. Lots of expensive railway capital
>>>>> infrastructure being underused?
>>>>
>>>> Still Newcastle and Edinburgh might be congested,
>>>> for rail and road infrastructure. And maybe it does
>>>> not pay to run more trains even with free slots as
>>>> there is more demand between London and Newcastle?
>>>
>>> Indeed - in any network some parts are less used than others. If you tried
>>> to fill up every branch the trunk would be overwhelmed. Typically it's the
>>> junctions which are actually the capacity constraint.
>
>> Or for the MML in the East Midlands, the number of platforms at St
>> Pancras.
>
>>> Additionally a railway with traffic at different speeds has more gaps
>>> and lower capacity as faster trains catch up slower ones.
>>>
>>> The M1 and A1 being busy just goes to show how inefficient cars are: if a
>>> train can carry 500 people
>
>> A 5-car Voyager, which is longer than many typical trains (cf 2-car
>> Sprinters, 3-car TurboStars and numerous 4-car EMU) has 246 seats.
>
> as you wrote St. Pancas, what is the typical length
> of passenger trains originating there and seen on
> the MML in the East Midlands? Do they shorten trains
> on the way?
>
> Regards, ULF
>

The EMT long distance trains (as opposed to the commuter trains on the
southern part of the MML) are usually 5 or 7 car Meridian stock. Through
Leicester there are roughly 4 trains per hour in each direction. North of
Leicester the line diverges into two branches, half go to Nottingham, half
to Sheffield.

In message <a48a9d957aeef14a853795f065295f17@www.novabbs.org>, at
13:11:59 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> In message <umx*RBEIz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:29:48 on
>>Tue, 23 Apr 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>>> Tweed wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I often ponder the difference between road and railway
>>>> >utilisation. As I’ve
>>>> > mentioned before, the ECML at Berwick often seems thinly used. I
>>>> >often walk
>>>> > past the MML in the East Midlands and that also seems to have a passing
>>>> > train only every 10 or 15 minutes. In contrast the M1 and A1 appear to be
>>>> > at capacity much of the time. Lots of expensive railway capital
>>>> > infrastructure being underused?
>>>>
>>>> Still Newcastle and Edinburgh might be congested,
>>>> for rail and road infrastructure. And maybe it does
>>>> not pay to run more trains even with free slots as
>>>> there is more demand between London and Newcastle?
>>>
>>>Indeed - in any network some parts are less used than others. If you tried
>>>to fill up every branch the trunk would be overwhelmed. Typically it's the
>>>junctions which are actually the capacity constraint.
>
>> Or for the MML in the East Midlands, the number of platforms at St
>>Pancras.
>
>>> Additionally a railway with traffic at different speeds has more
>>>gaps and lower capacity as faster trains catch up slower ones.
>>>
>>>The M1 and A1 being busy just goes to show how inefficient cars are: if a
>>>train can carry 500 people
>
>> A 5-car Voyager, which is longer than many typical trains (cf 2-car
>>Sprinters, 3-car TurboStars and numerous 4-car EMU) has 246 seats.
>
>as you wrote St. Pancas, what is the typical length
>of passenger trains originating there and seen on
>the MML in the East Midlands?

5 or 7-car Voyager clones. Sometimes 5+5.

>Do they shorten trains on the way?

Very rarely. Like it used to be one train a day split at Nottingham with
half going on to Hull.

>Regards, ULF

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <a48a9d957aeef14a853795f065295f17@www.novabbs.org>, at
> 13:11:59 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>>Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> In message <umx*RBEIz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:29:48 on
>>>Tue, 23 Apr 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > I often ponder the difference between road and railway
>>>>> >utilisation. As I’ve
>>>>> > mentioned before, the ECML at Berwick often seems thinly used. I
>>>>> >often walk
>>>>> > past the MML in the East Midlands and that also seems to have a passing
>>>>> > train only every 10 or 15 minutes. In contrast the M1 and A1 appear to be
>>>>> > at capacity much of the time. Lots of expensive railway capital
>>>>> > infrastructure being underused?
>>>>>
>>>>> Still Newcastle and Edinburgh might be congested,
>>>>> for rail and road infrastructure. And maybe it does
>>>>> not pay to run more trains even with free slots as
>>>>> there is more demand between London and Newcastle?
>>>>
>>>>Indeed - in any network some parts are less used than others. If you tried
>>>>to fill up every branch the trunk would be overwhelmed. Typically it's the
>>>>junctions which are actually the capacity constraint.
>>
>>> Or for the MML in the East Midlands, the number of platforms at St
>>>Pancras.
>>
>>>> Additionally a railway with traffic at different speeds has more
>>>>gaps and lower capacity as faster trains catch up slower ones.
>>>>
>>>>The M1 and A1 being busy just goes to show how inefficient cars are: if a
>>>>train can carry 500 people
>>
>>> A 5-car Voyager, which is longer than many typical trains (cf 2-car
>>>Sprinters, 3-car TurboStars and numerous 4-car EMU) has 246 seats.
>>
>>as you wrote St. Pancas, what is the typical length
>>of passenger trains originating there and seen on
>>the MML in the East Midlands?

> 5 or 7-car Voyager clones. Sometimes 5+5.

Which comes close to 500 seats. Do they take standees?

Regards, ULF

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>> Tweed wrote:
>>
>>> I often ponder the difference between road and railway utilisation. As I’ve
>>> mentioned before, the ECML at Berwick often seems thinly used. I often walk
>>> past the MML in the East Midlands and that also seems to have a passing
>>> train only every 10 or 15 minutes. In contrast the M1 and A1 appear to be
>>> at capacity much of the time. Lots of expensive railway capital
>>> infrastructure being underused?
>>
>>
>> Still Newcastle and Edinburgh might be congested,
>> for rail and road infrastructure. And maybe it does
>> not pay to run more trains even with free slots as
>> there is more demand between London and Newcastle?
>
> Indeed - in any network some parts are less used than others. If you tried
> to fill up every branch the trunk would be overwhelmed. Typically it's the
> junctions which are actually the capacity constraint. Additionally a
> railway with traffic at different speeds has more gaps and lower capacity as
> faster trains catch up slower ones.
>
> The M1 and A1 being busy just goes to show how inefficient cars are: if a
> train can carry 500 people and you get one every 10 minutes, that's 3000
> people per hour. If they were all driving cars that would be almost one car
> per second. One looks like a super congested road, the other is an 'empty'
> railway.
>
> Theo
>

A second is actually quite a long time, I reckon at car cruising speeds
one every half second would more like it, and with 3 lanes that could be 6
a second though lorries and slower drivers would reduce that a fair bit.

I decided to look up how many cars use the M27 , In 2007 when it was still
3 lane it was 120,000 a day so that is 5000 an hour , so ten trains of 500
an hour to match just the car drivers before you include any passengers.
Of course the traffic isn’t that even around the clock so more travel in
the day than at night so more trains needed in the day to match.

Much of it is now a smart motorway but with new housing etc it is now
busier.
The existing railway and stock nearby would need upgrading a lot to
match.

GH

In message <7d8868435efdf771499e3622e8680152@www.novabbs.org>, at
14:08:18 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>>>as you wrote St. Pancas, what is the typical length
>>>of passenger trains originating there and seen on
>>>the MML in the East Midlands?
>
>> 5 or 7-car Voyager clones. Sometimes 5+5.
>
>Which comes close to 500 seats.

Only for the relatively rare 5+5's.

>Do they take standees?

Yes, but standing for 2hrs isn't my idea of fun.

Meanwhile, it may be different now, but most MML trains used to run very
lightly loaded north of Leicester. I used to buy First Class advance
fares (which were cheaper than Standard Class open tickets, which is all
that mattered to my clients) and I was often the only person left after
Leicester. Including the catering staff who packed up. And for a while
used to only serve south of Market Harborough.
--
Roland Perry

In message <l8pu44F62fmU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:15:33 on Tue, 23
Apr 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:

>I decided to look up how many cars use the M27 , In 2007 when it was still
>3 lane it was 120,000 a day so that is 5000 an hour , so ten trains of 500
> an hour to match just the car drivers before you include any passengers.

Careful! The traffic isn't the same 24hrs a day. In the peaks it could
be 10,000, and at 3am, 500.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <l8pu44F62fmU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:15:33 on Tue, 23
> Apr 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> I decided to look up how many cars use the M27 , In 2007 when it was still
>> 3 lane it was 120,000 a day so that is 5000 an hour , so ten trains of 500
>> an hour to match just the car drivers before you include any passengers.
>
> Careful! The traffic isn't the same 24hrs a day. In the peaks it could
> be 10,000, and at 3am, 500.

Hence the line you have snipped

“Of course the traffic isn’t that even around the clock so more travel in
the day than at night so more trains needed in the day to match.”.

GH

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <7d8868435efdf771499e3622e8680152@www.novabbs.org>, at
> 14:08:18 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>>>>as you wrote St. Pancas, what is the typical length
>>>>of passenger trains originating there and seen on
>>>>the MML in the East Midlands?
>>
>>> 5 or 7-car Voyager clones. Sometimes 5+5.
>>
>>Which comes close to 500 seats.

> Only for the relatively rare 5+5's.

>>Do they take standees?

> Yes, but standing for 2hrs isn't my idea of fun.

> Meanwhile, it may be different now, but most MML trains used to run very
> lightly loaded north of Leicester. I used to buy First Class advance
> fares (which were cheaper than Standard Class open tickets, which is all
> that mattered to my clients)

I Germany, clients use(d) to ask for Second Class, even
if more expensive than Advance First...

Regards, ULF

In message <6da46e0244b7c3f6b33b12275cdee2be@www.novabbs.org>, at
06:17:19 on Wed, 24 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> In message <7d8868435efdf771499e3622e8680152@www.novabbs.org>, at
>>14:08:18 on Tue, 23 Apr 2024, ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> remarked:
>>>>>as you wrote St. Pancas, what is the typical length
>>>>>of passenger trains originating there and seen on
>>>>>the MML in the East Midlands?
>>>
>>>> 5 or 7-car Voyager clones. Sometimes 5+5.
>>>
>>>Which comes close to 500 seats.
>
>> Only for the relatively rare 5+5's.
>
>>>Do they take standees?
>
>> Yes, but standing for 2hrs isn't my idea of fun.
>
>> Meanwhile, it may be different now, but most MML trains used to run
>>very lightly loaded north of Leicester. I used to buy First Class
>>advance fares (which were cheaper than Standard Class open tickets,
>>which is all that mattered to my clients)
>
>I Germany, clients use(d) to ask for Second Class, even
>if more expensive than Advance First...

One of my EU mainland clients insisted on Open/refundable First Class.
Which I think is a major extravagance when travelling under 2hrs in
England. So I usually ignored it and bought Open Standard (Peak or
off-peak as required).

Others would pay the actual cost of anything purchased, capped at the
Open [Anytime] Standard fare. Long ago I had one who paid the Open
Standard Fare as an "allowance", which the traveller could then use
however they thought fit.

Organisations would then have mirror-policies for air fares, including
rules like Economy <5hrs, refundable compulsory (which has the perhaps
unintended consequence of outlawing low-cost carriers) and so on.

I generally used to ignore those rules when I could, and make one-off
arrangements not "one size fits all". The financial director of one
client eventually took me aside and asked "why are your travelling
expense claims about half that of your colleagues". "How long have you
got" I replied.
--
Roland Perry

In message <l8q7h6F7es4U1@mid.individual.net>, at 16:56:06 on Tue, 23
Apr 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <l8pu44F62fmU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:15:33 on Tue, 23
>> Apr 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> I decided to look up how many cars use the M27 , In 2007 when it was still
>>> 3 lane it was 120,000 a day so that is 5000 an hour , so ten trains of 500
>>> an hour to match just the car drivers before you include any passengers.
>>
>> Careful! The traffic isn't the same 24hrs a day. In the peaks it could
>> be 10,000, and at 3am, 500.
>
>Hence the line you have snipped
>
>“Of course the traffic isn’t that even around the clock so more travel in
>the day than at night so more trains needed in the day to match.”.

I thought it needed rubbing in, because the "ten trains an hour" is
overly precise, and should be "between twenty trains an hour, to one in
the middle of the night". Except very few railways run in the night!
--
Roland Perry

ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
> I Germany, clients use(d) to ask for Second Class, even
> if more expensive than Advance First...

I always wonder if Eurostar's class of Standard Premier is some kind of hack
on British and French expenses policies. Are business people in Britain
expected to go in Standard but those in France expecting to go first class
or something?

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>> I Germany, clients use(d) to ask for Second Class, even
>> if more expensive than Advance First...
>
> I always wonder if Eurostar's class of Standard Premier is some kind of hack
> on British and French expenses policies. Are business people in Britain
> expected to go in Standard but those in France expecting to go first class
> or something?

After the 4th of November, it's to be renamed Eurostar Plus, on both the
original Eurostar and former Thalys services (it's currently called Comfort
on the latter). The top class will simply be called Eurostar Premier on
both.