The team is invited to pick this apart

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html

In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>The team is invited to pick this apart
>
>https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html

The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
the irony).

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>
>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>
> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
> the irony).
>

Indeed. And the rail industry always assumes you want to go from and go to
a city centre in these sort of comparisons. The last time I had to go to
Edinburgh on business the airport was closer to the business location than
either Waverley or Haymarket.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>
>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>
> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
> the irony).

Yes, that was my first reaction, too. It struck me as a very obvious way of
deliberately skewing the results against air.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>
>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>
>> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
>> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
>> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
>> the irony).
>
> Yes, that was my first reaction, too. It struck me as a very obvious way of
> deliberately skewing the results against air.
>
>

The thing about air is it works properly on a Sunday, rather than taking
longer and/or chucking you on to a bus. The seats are more comfortable,
even in economy, and you don’t have to sit in them for so long. To make the
long distance trains comfortable over the 4 to 5 hours involved you need to
go first class, which alters the train pricing considerably.

On 23/04/2024 17:41, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>
>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>
>> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
>> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
>> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
>> the irony).
>
> Indeed. And the rail industry always assumes you want to go from and go to
> a city centre in these sort of comparisons. The last time I had to go to
> Edinburgh on business the airport was closer to the business location than
> either Waverley or Haymarket.

Not even the city centre. The comparisons assume that the rail journey
starts and ends at the relevant stations, and adds no time or cost for
getting between there and the actual destination. Of course rail will
win in those circumstances, just as an Advance Standard tied to the 0500
from The Trainline costs less than a First Open from your local station.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>
>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>
>> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
>> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
>> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
>> the irony).
>>
>
> Indeed. And the rail industry always assumes you want to go from and go to
> a city centre in these sort of comparisons. The last time I had to go to
> Edinburgh on business the airport was closer to the business location than
> either Waverley or Haymarket.

And that's even more likely with London, with multiple airports around the
city. LCY and LHR are more convenient for many addresses than the main
line termini.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>>
>>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>>
>>> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
>>> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
>>> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
>>> the irony).
>>
>> Yes, that was my first reaction, too. It struck me as a very obvious way of
>> deliberately skewing the results against air.
>>
>>
>
> The thing about air is it works properly on a Sunday, rather than taking
> longer and/or chucking you on to a bus. The seats are more comfortable,
> even in economy, and you don’t have to sit in them for so long. To make the
> long distance trains comfortable over the 4 to 5 hours involved you need to
> go first class, which alters the train pricing considerably.
>

It struck me that a few further practical questions ought to be added:

- What is the earliest meeting/event I could attend in the destination
city, allowing for travelling times from the destination airport or
station?

- What is the latest time I could leave my event and still get home the
same day?

- What are the chances of my journey having to be cancelled because of a
strike/infrastructure work/weather?

- Can I travel seven days a week?

- Will I be guaranteed a reserved seat?

On 23/04/2024 21:41, Recliner wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>>>
>>>> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
>>>> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
>>>> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
>>>> the irony).
>>>
>>> Yes, that was my first reaction, too. It struck me as a very obvious way of
>>> deliberately skewing the results against air.
>>
>> The thing about air is it works properly on a Sunday, rather than taking
>> longer and/or chucking you on to a bus. The seats are more comfortable,
>> even in economy, and you don’t have to sit in them for so long. To make the
>> long distance trains comfortable over the 4 to 5 hours involved you need to
>> go first class, which alters the train pricing considerably.
>
> It struck me that a few further practical questions ought to be added:
>
> - What is the earliest meeting/event I could attend in the destination
> city, allowing for travelling times from the destination airport or
> station?
>
> - What is the latest time I could leave my event and still get home the
> same day?
>
> - What are the chances of my journey having to be cancelled because of a
> strike/infrastructure work/weather?
>
> - Can I travel seven days a week?
>
> - Will I be guaranteed a reserved seat?

- If there are no seats left, may I travel standing up?

- If my destination is foggy, will I be dumped near a random other city?

- Can I use my phone and laptop, even as we enter or leave a station?

- Will the staff be allowed to use my luggage as a rugby ball?

- Will I be herded around and treated like a criminal while boarding?

On 23/04/2024 13:50, Tweed wrote:
> The team is invited to pick this apart

Perhaps someone should compare a couple (if not a direct route) of large
(half empty?) trains and taxis at each end with a very economical and
clean modern car that goes direct from departure point to destination,
carrying several people with all their luggage?

On 23/04/2024 13:50, Tweed wrote:
> The team is invited to pick this apart
>
> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html

I hate flying but the 'elephant in the room' is that airlines rarely go
on strike.

I think they also have stricter regulations about you and your luggage
to your destination in the event of disruption on the route. I remember
once staying with someone who had been on a business trip the day before
and a taxi arrived with his bags that had gone to the wrong destination.

Tweed wrote:

> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>>
>>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>>
>>> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
>>> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
>>> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
>>> the irony).
>>
>> Yes, that was my first reaction, too. It struck me as a very obvious way of
>> deliberately skewing the results against air.
>>
>>

> The thing about air is it works properly on a Sunday, rather than taking
> longer and/or chucking you on to a bus. The seats are more comfortable,
> even in economy, and you don’t have to sit in them for so long. To make the
> long distance trains comfortable over the 4 to 5 hours involved you need to
> go first class, which alters the train pricing considerably.

But many of those who think that way accept Economy
for 4 or 5 hours in planes...

Way more comfortable?

Regards, ULF

Recliner wrote:

> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>>>
>>>> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
>>>> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
>>>> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
>>>> the irony).
>>>
>>> Yes, that was my first reaction, too. It struck me as a very obvious way of
>>> deliberately skewing the results against air.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The thing about air is it works properly on a Sunday, rather than taking
>> longer and/or chucking you on to a bus. The seats are more comfortable,
>> even in economy, and you don’t have to sit in them for so long. To make the
>> long distance trains comfortable over the 4 to 5 hours involved you need to
>> go first class, which alters the train pricing considerably.
>>

> It struck me that a few further practical questions ought to be added:

> - What is the earliest meeting/event I could attend in the destination
> city, allowing for travelling times from the destination airport or
> station?

> - What is the latest time I could leave my event and still get home the
> same day?

> - What are the chances of my journey having to be cancelled because of a
> strike/infrastructure work/weather?

> - Can I travel seven days a week?

> - Will I be guaranteed a reserved seat?

We do have aircraft changes in Germany, including changes
to smaller aircraft not allowing to take all passengers
with confirmed booking...

Regards, ULF

JMB99 wrote:

> On 23/04/2024 13:50, Tweed wrote:
>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>
>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html

> I hate flying but the 'elephant in the room' is that airlines rarely go
> on strike.

We do have here flight officers, fight attendants,
luggage workers and security staff with there own
indepenent strikes. There was a day when FRA worked
only for arrivals and connecting passengers...

Regards, ULF

JMB99 wrote:

> On 23/04/2024 13:50, Tweed wrote:
>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>
>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html

> I think they also have stricter regulations about you and your luggage
> to your destination in the event of disruption on the route. I remember
> once staying with someone who had been on a business trip the day before
> and a taxi arrived with his bags that had gone to the wrong destination.

Didn't KLM stop this? I read they send late luggage to
the airport if it didnÄ't meke the connection, which does
not need any wrong direction.

Regards, ULF

On 24.04.2024 08:17, JMB99 wrote:
> On 23/04/2024 13:50, Tweed wrote:
>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>
>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>
>
> I hate flying but the 'elephant in the room' is that airlines rarely go
> on strike.

Tell that to French air traffic controllers.

Robin

On 24/04/2024 07:57, Bob wrote:
> On 24.04.2024 08:17, JMB99 wrote:
>> On 23/04/2024 13:50, Tweed wrote:
>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>
>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>
>>
>> I hate flying but the 'elephant in the room' is that airlines rarely
>> go on strike.
>
> Tell that to French air traffic controllers.
>

ATC are not airlines!

However BA have had several disputes with cabin staff, Ryanair with
pilots,as have some other companies. Ground handling strikes are fairly
frequent. The difference is the right wing media have no interest in
publicising such things, it is much easier, and more tory friendly, to
continually have a go at the railways.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <P1VVN.50119$T%2.36212@fx08.ams1>, at 20:41:19 on Tue, 23 Apr
2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>>
>>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>>
>>> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
>>> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
>>> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
>>> the irony).
>>
>> Indeed. And the rail industry always assumes you want to go from and go to
>> a city centre in these sort of comparisons. The last time I had to go to
>> Edinburgh on business the airport was closer to the business location than
>> either Waverley or Haymarket.
>
>And that's even more likely with London, with multiple airports around the
>city. LCY and LHR are more convenient for many addresses than the main
>line termini.

Maybe the situation is different for domestic flights, but I usually
find my choice of "which London airport" is almost entirely driven by
which serve the destination I'm travelling to.

Which starting from the 'wrong side of London' (despite the Thameslink
service) is a pain if that one airport is Gatwick.
--
Roland Perry

In message <O1VVN.50118$T%2.24159@fx08.ams1>, at 20:41:18 on Tue, 23 Apr
2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>- What is the earliest meeting/event I could attend in the destination
>city, allowing for travelling times from the destination airport or
>station?

Compounded by having to get up at 4am, to get a ride to the airport to
arrive at 5:30am to catch a flight at 7am.

>- What is the latest time I could leave my event and still get home the
>same day?

Especially multi-day events, proceedings will often finish at lunchtime
the final day, so people can get home. That's not very practical for
one-day events.

My last trip to Strasbourg (Council of Europe) it was a choice of
bailing out early at about 3pm to fly home, or what I actually did which
was stay overnight then spend the next day 'working on the train' [TGV,
Eurostar and MML] to get back.

>- Will I be guaranteed a reserved seat?

On that TGV, my reserved seat turned out to be a luggage rack. But the
rest of the carriage was empty, so not a problem.
--
Roland Perry

Am 24.04.2024 um 08:17 schrieb JMB99:
> On 23/04/2024 13:50, Tweed wrote:
>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>
>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>
> I hate flying but the 'elephant in the room' is that airlines rarely go
> on strike.

in Germany, this is definitely not true. There was a pilots' strike
(airline specific), there was a "security personell strike" closing done
several major airports, there was a "cabin crew strike"" (airline
specific), and so on. Some of these even coincided with the railway
drivers' strike days ;-(

Internationally, airline specific strike might hir you less but
domestically there's usually little choice of airline.

Graeme Wall wrote:

> On 24/04/2024 07:57, Bob wrote:
>> On 24.04.2024 08:17, JMB99 wrote:
>>> On 23/04/2024 13:50, Tweed wrote:
>>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>>
>>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>>
>>>
>>> I hate flying but the 'elephant in the room' is that airlines rarely
>>> go on strike.
>>
>> Tell that to French air traffic controllers.
>>

> ATC are not airlines!

> However BA have had several disputes with cabin staff, Ryanair with
> pilots,as have some other companies.

Do you say in very good English companies go on strike?
I recentlich found "xy AG/GmbH streikt" but it is
trade union/employees'/workers' action.

Regards, ULF

On 23/04/2024 17:44, Recliner wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>
>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>
>> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
>> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
>> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
>> the irony).
>
> Yes, that was my first reaction, too. It struck me as a very obvious way of
> deliberately skewing the results against air.
>

Ironically most of the time comparisons I see on this group compare the
time in the air.

Apart from forcing the plane companies to put the full fares on their
websites they should also be forced to quote the time you should arrive
at the airport for your flight.

This would also assist infrequent travellers like myself to have to wade
all over the place to find the information for ourselves. This would
take responsibilities for delays within airports away from passengers.
I know people who have arrived at airports in good time and still been
in the check in queue at departure time.

ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
> Tweed wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <v08aqg$1khpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:24 on Tue, 23 Apr
>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>>>
>>>> The main thing I find disappointing is the way they choose minicab fares
>>>> as the way to get from the airport to the city centre, when most of the
>>>> destinations they use have frequent and cheap local rail services (oh,
>>>> the irony).
>>>
>>> Yes, that was my first reaction, too. It struck me as a very obvious way of
>>> deliberately skewing the results against air.
>>>
>>>
>
>> The thing about air is it works properly on a Sunday, rather than taking
>> longer and/or chucking you on to a bus. The seats are more comfortable,
>> even in economy, and you don’t have to sit in them for so long. To make the
>> long distance trains comfortable over the 4 to 5 hours involved you need to
>> go first class, which alters the train pricing considerably.
>
> But many of those who think that way accept Economy
> for 4 or 5 hours in planes...
>
> Way more comfortable?
>
> Regards, ULF
>

We are attempting to compare similar journeys. No UK internal flight is 4
to 5 hours. But since you raise the point, yes I find economy plane seats
more comfortable than the hard seats inflicted upon us by modern UK rolling
stock.

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 24.04.2024 08:17, JMB99 wrote:
>> On 23/04/2024 13:50, Tweed wrote:
>>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>>>
>>> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/uk-rail-industry/clearingtheair.html
>>
>>
>> I hate flying but the 'elephant in the room' is that airlines rarely go
>> on strike.
>
> Tell that to French air traffic controllers.
>
> Robin
>
>

However, UK internal flights rarely use French ATC. The object of the
exercise was to compare train v plane for similar UK trips, which was what
RDG was setting out to do with rather dodgy methodology.

In message <v0a7pp$25q3n$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:11:05 on Wed, 24 Apr
2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 23/04/2024 13:50, Tweed wrote:
>> The team is invited to pick this apart
>
>Perhaps someone should compare a couple (if not a direct route) of
>large (half empty?) trains and taxis at each end with a very economical
>and clean modern car that goes direct from departure point to
>destination, carrying several people with all their luggage?

A bit of an edge case, but it would have been quite costly and
complicated to travel to our holiday break this time last year in
rural Cornwall other than by car (although it was a very long drive).

Five people, a dog, a wheelchair, and everyone's luggage (soft bags
essential), in my Freelander 2. People may scoff, but they do have
their uses.
--
Roland Perry