We recently discussed the battery-powered class 230 being tested on the Greenford branch, with its prominent triple
charger rails. Since I took the pictures on the West Ealing branch, I've had a chance to sample the battery-powered
trams in Nice, and took some pictures. These have a very different, more discreet set of charger contacts.

Nice has three tram lines. The oldest, Line 1, is mainly OHLE, but has two sections in the old town where the trams run
on batteries, to avoid having to erect ugly poles and wires in historic squares. The batteries are re-charged by the OHL
in the adjacent sections. When it came to Line 2, they decided to dispense with all visible OHLE, so it's only fitted in
the short tunnel under the old town. Before emerging from the tunnel, the trams drop their pans. So, on the whole,
no-one notices any OHLE. The newest, Line 3, dispenses with OHLE altogether, with the trams always powered by their
roof-mounted batteries.

Rather than only re-charging at the end of the line, as at West Ealing, the Nice trams take a quick top-up charge at
every stop. They use a similar arrangement of retractable shoes that drop when the tram has stopped in the correct
position, and are raised automatically before the tram moves off, with the charger contacts only live when the tram is
stopped in position. What's different in the physical arrangements is that the two central charger contacts are flat
pads, flush with the road. They just look like equipment covers and most people simply don't notice them.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720315709019/

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 14:23:16 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>trams in Nice, and took some pictures. These have a very different, more

Thought you'd been rather quiet recently.

>every stop. They use a similar arrangement of retractable shoes that drop when
>the tram has stopped in the correct
>position, and are raised automatically before the tram moves off, with the
>charger contacts only live when the tram is
>stopped in position. What's different in the physical arrangements is that the

Seems like a neat idea , though I wonder how reliable retractable shoes will
be if they're dropped and retracted every few minutes every day. Unless it
only happens when the battery needs a top up.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 14:34:14 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 14:23:16 +0000
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>trams in Nice, and took some pictures. These have a very different, more
>
>Thought you'd been rather quiet recently.
>
>>every stop. They use a similar arrangement of retractable shoes that drop when
>>the tram has stopped in the correct
>>position, and are raised automatically before the tram moves off, with the
>>charger contacts only live when the tram is
>>stopped in position. What's different in the physical arrangements is that the
>
>Seems like a neat idea , though I wonder how reliable retractable shoes will
>be if they're dropped and retracted every few minutes every day. Unless it
>only happens when the battery needs a top up.

It looks like the batteries gets a quick top-up at every stop. That way, relatively cheap, light batteries can be
mounted on the roof.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 15:13:55 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 14:34:14 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>Seems like a neat idea , though I wonder how reliable retractable shoes will
>>be if they're dropped and retracted every few minutes every day. Unless it
>>only happens when the battery needs a top up.
>
>It looks like the batteries gets a quick top-up at every stop. That way,
>relatively cheap, light batteries can be
>mounted on the roof.

Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 15:13:55 +0000
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 14:34:14 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Seems like a neat idea , though I wonder how reliable retractable shoes will
>>> be if they're dropped and retracted every few minutes every day. Unless it
>>> only happens when the battery needs a top up.
>>
>> It looks like the batteries gets a quick top-up at every stop. That way,
>> relatively cheap, light batteries can be
>> mounted on the roof.
>
> Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
> battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.
>
>

The batteries may in fact be supercapacitors. These are very quick to
charge but have less capacity than batteries.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/infrastructure/nice-tram-line-2-power-supply-contract-awarded/43717.article

28 December 2016

FRANCE: A consortium of Alstom and Colas Rail has been awarded an €11m
contract to supply power supply equipment for Line 2 of the Nice tramway,
which will use Alstom’s SRS ground-based static charging technology.

The firm order includes seven electrical substations, 10 lighting power
stations and two intake power stations. There are also options for two
additional substations. Alstom will act as principal contractor and project
manager, using teams based in Saint-Ouen, Villeurbanne and Nice. Colas Rail
teams based in Louveciennes, Cergy Pontoise and Nice will carry out
studies, installations and testing.

Line 2 will run for 11⋅3 km from the port in the east to Nice Côte d’Azur
Airport in the west, with 20 stops. It is due to open in 2018. A 3·2 km
underground section under the city centre is being built, either side of
which will be surface sections with no overhead wires. The trams will
therefore be equipped with Ecopack supercapacitors that will be recharged
at stops using SRS technology.

In October 2015 Alstom was selected for a €91m contract to supply 19
Citadis X05 trams, with 12 years of maintenance and options for up to 18
more trams.

On 26.03.2024 16:13, Recliner wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 14:34:14 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 14:23:16 +0000
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> trams in Nice, and took some pictures. These have a very different, more
>>
>> Thought you'd been rather quiet recently.
>>
>>> every stop. They use a similar arrangement of retractable shoes that drop when
>>> the tram has stopped in the correct
>>> position, and are raised automatically before the tram moves off, with the
>>> charger contacts only live when the tram is
>>> stopped in position. What's different in the physical arrangements is that the
>>
>> Seems like a neat idea , though I wonder how reliable retractable shoes will
>> be if they're dropped and retracted every few minutes every day. Unless it
>> only happens when the battery needs a top up.
>
> It looks like the batteries gets a quick top-up at every stop. That way, relatively cheap, light batteries can be
> mounted on the roof.

At the expense of having to provide a charger at every stop. The two
systems are designed to meet very different needs. One is for a
tramway-without-wires where the decision not to provide wires is based
on aesthetics, and a premium is paid to gain that feature. The other is
for a branchline railway where cutting infrastructure costs to the bone
is the primary objective, where a cost case for proper electrification
could never be made otherwise.

Robin

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 15:13:55 +0000
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 14:34:14 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Seems like a neat idea , though I wonder how reliable retractable shoes will
>>> be if they're dropped and retracted every few minutes every day. Unless it
>>> only happens when the battery needs a top up.
>>
>> It looks like the batteries gets a quick top-up at every stop. That way,
>> relatively cheap, light batteries can be
>> mounted on the roof.
>
> Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
> battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.

The stops only seemed to be as long as needed for passengers to get off and
on, so around 20-30 seconds (a 20 second top-up is stated to be enough). Of
course, the trams wait longer at the termini, and dwell times are
naturually extended at busy stops. They store the energy in 13.5kWh
lithium-ion super-capacitor boxes on the roof. Of course, they have
regenerative braking.

If the tram is held up between stations, the system can maintain full
aircon for an extra three minutes, and a reduced level for up to a further
17 minutes. With thus depleted batteries, the tram would crawl at 20 km/h
to the next stop, to leave enough power for the aircom. Of course, if the
service is disrupted, trams would normally wait at stations, on charge, not
between them.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:01:21 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
>> battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.
>>
>>
>
>The batteries may in fact be supercapacitors. These are very quick to
>charge but have less capacity than batteries.
>
>https://www.railwaygazette.com/infrastructure/nice-tram-line-2-power-supply-con
>tract-awarded/43717.article

Interesting. Wonder how it would deal with service interruptions with trams
stuck between stops though, would it have enough capacity to keep the tram
powered for an hour or whatever or would they have to be shut down and all the
pax booted off?

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:11:13 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
>> battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.
>
>The stops only seemed to be as long as needed for passengers to get off and
>on, so around 20-30 seconds (a 20 second top-up is stated to be enough). Of
>course, the trams wait longer at the termini, and dwell times are
>naturually extended at busy stops. They store the energy in 13.5kWh
>lithium-ion super-capacitor boxes on the roof. Of course, they have
>regenerative braking.
>
>If the tram is held up between stations, the system can maintain full
>aircon for an extra three minutes, and a reduced level for up to a further
>17 minutes. With thus depleted batteries, the tram would crawl at 20 km/h

Notalot of air con time given the recent summers the med has been having.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 15:13:55 +0000
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 14:34:14 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> Seems like a neat idea , though I wonder how reliable retractable shoes will
>>>> be if they're dropped and retracted every few minutes every day. Unless it
>>>> only happens when the battery needs a top up.
>>>
>>> It looks like the batteries gets a quick top-up at every stop. That way,
>>> relatively cheap, light batteries can be
>>> mounted on the roof.
>>
>> Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
>> battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.
>>
>>
>
> The batteries may in fact be supercapacitors. These are very quick to
> charge but have less capacity than batteries.

They're a combination of super-capacitators and Li-Ion batteries. I think
that the super-capacitators are to accept the fast charge top-up and
regenerative braking current and deliver the traction power, with the
batteries holding the reserve power. They are described as 'lithium-ion
super-capacitor boxes'.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:01:21 -0000 (UTC)
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
>>> battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The batteries may in fact be supercapacitors. These are very quick to
>> charge but have less capacity than batteries.
>>
>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/infrastructure/nice-tram-line-2-power-supply-con
>> tract-awarded/43717.article
>
> Interesting. Wonder how it would deal with service interruptions with trams
> stuck between stops though, would it have enough capacity to keep the tram
> powered for an hour or whatever or would they have to be shut down and all the
> pax booted off?
>
>
>

Probably got a small capacity conventional battery to provide enough energy
to get to the next charge pad. The advantage of the super capacitor is a
much more rapid charge time compared to a battery, at the expense of the
total amount of energy stored per unit volume.

On 26/03/2024 14:23, Recliner wrote:
> We recently discussed the battery-powered class 230 being tested on the Greenford branch, with its prominent triple
> charger rails. Since I took the pictures on the West Ealing branch, I've had a chance to sample the battery-powered
> trams in Nice, and took some pictures. These have a very different, more discreet set of charger contacts.
>
> Nice has three tram lines. The oldest, Line 1, is mainly OHLE, but has two sections in the old town where the trams run
> on batteries, to avoid having to erect ugly poles and wires in historic squares. The batteries are re-charged by the OHL
> in the adjacent sections. When it came to Line 2, they decided to dispense with all visible OHLE, so it's only fitted in
> the short tunnel under the old town. Before emerging from the tunnel, the trams drop their pans. So, on the whole,
> no-one notices any OHLE. The newest, Line 3, dispenses with OHLE altogether, with the trams always powered by their
> roof-mounted batteries.
>
> Rather than only re-charging at the end of the line, as at West Ealing, the Nice trams take a quick top-up charge at
> every stop. They use a similar arrangement of retractable shoes that drop when the tram has stopped in the correct
> position, and are raised automatically before the tram moves off, with the charger contacts only live when the tram is
> stopped in position. What's different in the physical arrangements is that the two central charger contacts are flat
> pads, flush with the road. They just look like equipment covers and most people simply don't notice them.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720315709019/

Are the charger pads "safe" if pedestrians accidentally walk on them ?

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:01:21 -0000 (UTC)
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
>>> battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The batteries may in fact be supercapacitors. These are very quick to
>> charge but have less capacity than batteries.
>>
>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/infrastructure/nice-tram-line-2-power-supply-con
>> tract-awarded/43717.article
>
> Interesting. Wonder how it would deal with service interruptions with trams
> stuck between stops though, would it have enough capacity to keep the tram
> powered for an hour or whatever or would they have to be shut down and all the
> pax booted off?
>
>

I would think that some service interruptions on a normal OHL supplied
tramway are because the overhead has failed due to a faulty insulator or
an extra tall load has fouled and damaged it.
In those instances a vehicle with some storage on board would be at an
advantage.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:01:21 -0000 (UTC)
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
>>>> battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The batteries may in fact be supercapacitors. These are very quick to
>>> charge but have less capacity than batteries.
>>>
>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/infrastructure/nice-tram-line-2-power-supply-con
>>> tract-awarded/43717.article
>>
>> Interesting. Wonder how it would deal with service interruptions with trams
>> stuck between stops though, would it have enough capacity to keep the tram
>> powered for an hour or whatever or would they have to be shut down and all the
>> pax booted off?
>>
>>
>
> I would think that some service interruptions on a normal OHL supplied
> tramway are because the overhead has failed due to a faulty insulator or
> an extra tall load has fouled and damaged it.
> In those instances a vehicle with some storage on board would be at an
> advantage.
>
> GH
>
>

The lowdown about li-ion capacitor

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378775323012338

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 26/03/2024 14:23, Recliner wrote:
>> We recently discussed the battery-powered class 230 being tested on the
>> Greenford branch, with its prominent triple
>> charger rails. Since I took the pictures on the West Ealing branch, I've
>> had a chance to sample the battery-powered
>> trams in Nice, and took some pictures. These have a very different, more
>> discreet set of charger contacts.
>>
>> Nice has three tram lines. The oldest, Line 1, is mainly OHLE, but has
>> two sections in the old town where the trams run
>> on batteries, to avoid having to erect ugly poles and wires in historic
>> squares. The batteries are re-charged by the OHL
>> in the adjacent sections. When it came to Line 2, they decided to
>> dispense with all visible OHLE, so it's only fitted in
>> the short tunnel under the old town. Before emerging from the tunnel,
>> the trams drop their pans. So, on the whole,
>> no-one notices any OHLE. The newest, Line 3, dispenses with OHLE
>> altogether, with the trams always powered by their
>> roof-mounted batteries.
>>
>> Rather than only re-charging at the end of the line, as at West Ealing,
>> the Nice trams take a quick top-up charge at
>> every stop. They use a similar arrangement of retractable shoes that
>> drop when the tram has stopped in the correct
>> position, and are raised automatically before the tram moves off, with
>> the charger contacts only live when the tram is
>> stopped in position. What's different in the physical arrangements is
>> that the two central charger contacts are flat
>> pads, flush with the road. They just look like equipment covers and most
>> people simply don't notice them.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720315709019/
>
> Are the charger pads "safe" if pedestrians accidentally walk on them ?

Yes. They're only energised when a tram is stopped in the correct position
above them, ready to be re-charged.

Quote:

The vehicle signals its arrival in the charging area by receiving the coded
signal permanently emitted by the ground. Detecting this signal and the
zero speed of the dual-mode tramway results in the inhibition of traction
and the lowering of the charging pads. Then the train emits a coded signal
that triggers the closing of the ground contactors and the powering of the
charging rail.

https://www.alten.com/dual-mode-tramway-how-nice-is-reinventing-urban-mobility/

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:15:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:11:13 GMT
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
>>> battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.
>>
>>The stops only seemed to be as long as needed for passengers to get off and
>>on, so around 20-30 seconds (a 20 second top-up is stated to be enough). Of
>>course, the trams wait longer at the termini, and dwell times are
>>naturually extended at busy stops. They store the energy in 13.5kWh
>>lithium-ion super-capacitor boxes on the roof. Of course, they have
>>regenerative braking.
>>
>>If the tram is held up between stations, the system can maintain full
>>aircon for an extra three minutes, and a reduced level for up to a further
>>17 minutes. With thus depleted batteries, the tram would crawl at 20 km/h
>
>Notalot of air con time given the recent summers the med has been having.

I suppose if it gets stuck in traffic for that long, the passengers would want to get out anyway.

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 12:15:17 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:15:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:11:13 GMT
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
>>>> battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.
>>>
>>>The stops only seemed to be as long as needed for passengers to get off and
>>>on, so around 20-30 seconds (a 20 second top-up is stated to be enough). Of
>>>course, the trams wait longer at the termini, and dwell times are
>>>naturually extended at busy stops. They store the energy in 13.5kWh
>>>lithium-ion super-capacitor boxes on the roof. Of course, they have
>>>regenerative braking.
>>>
>>>If the tram is held up between stations, the system can maintain full
>>>aircon for an extra three minutes, and a reduced level for up to a further
>>>17 minutes. With thus depleted batteries, the tram would crawl at 20 km/h
>>
>>Notalot of air con time given the recent summers the med has been having.
>
>I suppose if it gets stuck in traffic for that long, the passengers would want
>to get out anyway.

If the aircon dies in 40C heat they certainly will.

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 12:23:10 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 12:15:17 +0000
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:15:05 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:11:13 GMT
>>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> Wonder if those top-ups are quick enough not to impact the service. If the
>>>>> battery requires a 30 sec top up at every stop it could be a slow journey.
>>>>
>>>>The stops only seemed to be as long as needed for passengers to get off and
>>>>on, so around 20-30 seconds (a 20 second top-up is stated to be enough). Of
>>>>course, the trams wait longer at the termini, and dwell times are
>>>>naturually extended at busy stops. They store the energy in 13.5kWh
>>>>lithium-ion super-capacitor boxes on the roof. Of course, they have
>>>>regenerative braking.
>>>>
>>>>If the tram is held up between stations, the system can maintain full
>>>>aircon for an extra three minutes, and a reduced level for up to a further
>>>>17 minutes. With thus depleted batteries, the tram would crawl at 20 km/h
>>>
>>>Notalot of air con time given the recent summers the med has been having.
>>
>>I suppose if it gets stuck in traffic for that long, the passengers would want
>>to get out anyway.
>
>If the aircon dies in 40C heat they certainly will.

They'll want to get out in much less than the 20 mins that the aircon will keep working.

Nice also has electric bendy-buses which re-charge at each end of the route, rather than in depot. The short battery
range that this needs permits a much smaller, lighter, cheaper battery to be fitted on the buses. They use a static
pantograph that lowers down on to the bus roof.

What happens is that the bus parks in a reserved parking bay at the end of the route, all the passengers alight, and
it's then moved forward to a position under a large arm which holds the pantograph. This automatically folds down and
charges the bus for a few minutes. The driver can either stay on board, or leave to take a short break. When the
charging is completed, the pantograph automatically retracts, and the driver can pull forward to the bus stop ahead.

Pictures:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720315730639/

It's a German system, from Stemmann-Technik, a company now owned by Wabtec.

https://www.stemmann.com/en/products/charging_systems/chargingpanto_for_e_busses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wMSUaMRrUc

On 27/3/24 04:22, Tweed wrote:
>
>>
>> Interesting. Wonder how it would deal with service interruptions with trams
>> stuck between stops though, would it have enough capacity to keep the tram
>> powered for an hour or whatever or would they have to be shut down and all the
>> pax booted off?
>>

I don't know about the Alstom system specifically, but i've had the CAF
ACR explained and demoed to me by a senior tech (who put the tram into
diag mode so we could see the power flows on the driver display console).

The 'customer' can chose between capacitors and batteries and mix and
match depending on requirements. The CAF cars I was being showing run
purely on super-capacitors, recharging at each stop by raising a
pantograph to a contact bar about the tracks.
The capacitor has the capacity to take the car two stations with full
aux load (ie airconditioning), so if one station is tripped out, they
can continue service. The cars also have a lithium pack that they refer
to as a 'range extender'. That pack has the capacity to get the tram car
back to the depot with NO recharge stations working, but it is intended
for recovery only, not in service.

The computer monitors charge levels and controls it all. If stored power
gets too low, the tram load sheds (ie turns off the air conditioning and
lights) progressively lowers tram performance to extend the range. I'm
not 100% sure I remember this correctly, but if the range-extender
battery gets critically low, the 24v auxiliary battery can 'limp' the
car a short distance too.

I have no reason to expect Alstom hasn't implemented a very similar
system for their 'wire free' product.

Matthew Geier wrote:

> On 27/3/24 04:22, Tweed wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Interesting. Wonder how it would deal with service interruptions with trams
>>> stuck between stops though, would it have enough capacity to keep the tram
>>> powered for an hour or whatever or would they have to be shut down and all the
>>> pax booted off?
>>>

> I don't know about the Alstom system specifically, but i've had the CAF
> ACR explained and demoed to me by a senior tech (who put the tram into
> diag mode so we could see the power flows on the driver display console).

> The 'customer' can chose between capacitors and batteries and mix and
> match depending on requirements. The CAF cars I was being showing run
> purely on super-capacitors, recharging at each stop by raising a
> pantograph to a contact bar about the tracks.

This system is successfully in use in Newcastle, NSW, where the former heavy rail line into the city centre has been cut back to an inner suburb and the light rail takes passengers into the city and beyond:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_Light_Rail#/media/File:Newcastle_Light_Rail_at_Newcastle_Interchange.jpg>

Andrew and Ermintrude Clarke
Canberra

ermintrudethecat <andrewclarke437@gmail.com> wrote:
> Matthew Geier wrote:
>
>> On 27/3/24 04:22, Tweed wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting. Wonder how it would deal with service interruptions with trams
>>>> stuck between stops though, would it have enough capacity to keep the tram
>>>> powered for an hour or whatever or would they have to be shut down and all the
>>>> pax booted off?
>>>>
>
>> I don't know about the Alstom system specifically, but i've had the CAF
>> ACR explained and demoed to me by a senior tech (who put the tram into
>> diag mode so we could see the power flows on the driver display console).
>
>> The 'customer' can chose between capacitors and batteries and mix and
>> match depending on requirements. The CAF cars I was being showing run
>> purely on super-capacitors, recharging at each stop by raising a
>> pantograph to a contact bar about the tracks.
>
> This system is successfully in use in Newcastle, NSW, where the former
> heavy rail line into the city centre has been cut back to an inner suburb
> and the light rail takes passengers into the city and beyond:
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_Light_Rail#/media/File:Newcastle_Light_Rail_at_Newcastle_Interchange.jpg>

Yes, just like the similar Brum CAF trams.

On 31/3/24 10:26, Recliner wrote:
> ermintrudethecat <andrewclarke437@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, just like the similar Brum CAF trams.

Except the Newcastle (Australia) cars run totally wirefree. After an
incident where some one tried to drive into the (unwired) shed from the
'wired' yard and demolished the pantograph (leaving a visible dent in
the building), they altered the software - the Newcastle cars can not
move if the pantograph is up.
The Brum cars, having plenty of time to charge the batteries under the
wires, probably have only batteries and no capacitors. The Newcastle
cars carry mostly capacitors with one module (out of 5 I think) being a
battery. (The 'range extender').

The Newcastle cars now have a copper strip on the pantograph instead of
carbon as they were burning the carbons. They also had to half the
charging current after they discovered the charging cars were exceeding
EM field strength in 'people' areas.

So each stop is 90 seconds even if no one gets on or off, as the
pantograph has to raise, the 'charge-bar' activate, then a certain KW of
power has to be received, the pantograph is lowered. Then the car can
depart.

They whole stop and opportunity charge thing really slows down the service.

Matthew Geier <matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au> wrote:
> On 31/3/24 10:26, Recliner wrote:
>> ermintrudethecat <andrewclarke437@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, just like the similar Brum CAF trams.
>
> Except the Newcastle (Australia) cars run totally wirefree. After an
> incident where some one tried to drive into the (unwired) shed from the
> 'wired' yard and demolished the pantograph (leaving a visible dent in
> the building), they altered the software - the Newcastle cars can not
> move if the pantograph is up.
> The Brum cars, having plenty of time to charge the batteries under the
> wires, probably have only batteries and no capacitors. The Newcastle
> cars carry mostly capacitors with one module (out of 5 I think) being a
> battery. (The 'range extender').
>
> The Newcastle cars now have a copper strip on the pantograph instead of
> carbon as they were burning the carbons. They also had to half the
> charging current after they discovered the charging cars were exceeding
> EM field strength in 'people' areas.
>
> So each stop is 90 seconds even if no one gets on or off, as the
> pantograph has to raise, the 'charge-bar' activate, then a certain KW of
> power has to be received, the pantograph is lowered. Then the car can
> depart.
>
> They whole stop and opportunity charge thing really slows down the service.

Yes, the Nice system is much better: 20-30 second stops, no unsightly
overhead equipment. The latest Line 3 is entirely without visible charging
equipment, while Line 2 only has OHLE in the tunnel section. Only the
original Line 1 is mainly OHLE, with two short battery sections in open
squares in the old town.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> Yes, the Nice system is much better: 20-30 second stops, no unsightly
> overhead equipment. The latest Line 3 is entirely without visible charging
> equipment, while Line 2 only has OHLE in the tunnel section. Only the
> original Line 1 is mainly OHLE, with two short battery sections in open
> squares in the old town.

IIRC it’s technically not the old town, but close by, where the line
crosses Place Masséna and Place Garibaldi.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply