https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9
>
>
>

There’s been a number of Sleeper articles in the Times of late. The one
before this started off with high hopes but found the reality of getting a
good night’s sleep somewhat different. I’ve used couchettes many years ago,
and the Caledonian Sleeper around 5 years ago. The common theme was
spending the following day feeling rotten through lack of sleep.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9
>>
>>
>>
>
> There’s been a number of Sleeper articles in the Times of late. The one
> before this started off with high hopes but found the reality of getting a
> good night’s sleep somewhat different. I’ve used couchettes many years ago,
> and the Caledonian Sleeper around 5 years ago. The common theme was
> spending the following day feeling rotten through lack of sleep.
>

Yes:

My night on Germany’s cool new £42 intercity sleeper train

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/02866e26-8694-405c-9740-fbd7ae2fcc23?shareToken=33b15305a8f16845b7650b345ba639d6

Quote:

My Mini Cabin soon became uncomfortably hot; ceiling fans offered a single,
deathbed exhale of air. I felt as if I were being cooked in a confined
space, like a ready meal in a microwave. I opened the cabin door for some
oxygen but this too proved futile; with the rolling of the carriage the
door slammed shut, slicing at my toes like a guillotine.

There were other grumbles. Both bathrooms in our carriage were out of
action. The pillow was measly. It took until 2am for me to get to sleep,
and at 4.30am the Mini Cabin lights inexplicably switched on,
poltergeist-like, at Nuremberg. Later, Smith explained to me that this had
been a recurring problem: a software glitch previously meant that toilets
flushed and fire alarms rang out when locomotives changed at Nuremberg. He
is confident that these are teething problems. All the same, I couldn’t get
back to sleep.

On 26.03.2024 12:07, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9
>>
>>
>>
>
> There’s been a number of Sleeper articles in the Times of late. The one
> before this started off with high hopes but found the reality of getting a
> good night’s sleep somewhat different. I’ve used couchettes many years ago,
> and the Caledonian Sleeper around 5 years ago. The common theme was
> spending the following day feeling rotten through lack of sleep.

The alternative is to get up at 04.00 so I can be at the airport for an
06.30 flight, or alternatively leave home at 17.00 the evening before
and lose that evening and pay for an extra night in a hotel. Sleepers
don't have to be perfect, they just have to find a better ballance of
price and comfort compared with the alternatives.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 26.03.2024 12:07, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> There’s been a number of Sleeper articles in the Times of late. The one
>> before this started off with high hopes but found the reality of getting a
>> good night’s sleep somewhat different. I’ve used couchettes many years ago,
>> and the Caledonian Sleeper around 5 years ago. The common theme was
>> spending the following day feeling rotten through lack of sleep.
>
> The alternative is to get up at 04.00 so I can be at the airport for an
> 06.30 flight, or alternatively leave home at 17.00 the evening before
> and lose that evening and pay for an extra night in a hotel. Sleepers
> don't have to be perfect, they just have to find a better ballance of
> price and comfort compared with the alternatives.
>
> Robin
>
I prefer the travel the evening before option and stay in a comfortable
hotel.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:07:11 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 26.03.2024 12:07, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareTo
>ken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> There’s been a number of Sleeper articles in the Times of late. The one
>>> before this started off with high hopes but found the reality of getting a
>>> good night’s sleep somewhat different. I’ve used couchettes many years
>ago,
>>> and the Caledonian Sleeper around 5 years ago. The common theme was
>>> spending the following day feeling rotten through lack of sleep.
>>
>> The alternative is to get up at 04.00 so I can be at the airport for an
>> 06.30 flight, or alternatively leave home at 17.00 the evening before
>> and lose that evening and pay for an extra night in a hotel. Sleepers
>> don't have to be perfect, they just have to find a better ballance of
>> price and comfort compared with the alternatives.
>>
>> Robin
>>
>I prefer the travel the evening before option and stay in a comfortable
>hotel.

I prefer a car. Go when you want where you want and stop when you want.
Doesn't work for everyone obv but so much more flexible than train or plane.

On 26.03.2024 18:07, Tweed wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 26.03.2024 12:07, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> There’s been a number of Sleeper articles in the Times of late. The one
>>> before this started off with high hopes but found the reality of getting a
>>> good night’s sleep somewhat different. I’ve used couchettes many years ago,
>>> and the Caledonian Sleeper around 5 years ago. The common theme was
>>> spending the following day feeling rotten through lack of sleep.
>>
>> The alternative is to get up at 04.00 so I can be at the airport for an
>> 06.30 flight, or alternatively leave home at 17.00 the evening before
>> and lose that evening and pay for an extra night in a hotel. Sleepers
>> don't have to be perfect, they just have to find a better ballance of
>> price and comfort compared with the alternatives.
>>
> I prefer the travel the evening before option and stay in a comfortable
> hotel.

I prefer to have a limousine pick me up and drive me to a private
airfield where a private jet flies me to my destination on demand, from
where another limousine drives me to my destination on a whim. My
budget, however, does not stretch to anything like that. It's about
finding the right tradeoff. Not everybody is free to give up the
afternoon/evening of the day before to travel, and not every budget can
stretch to an additional night in a "comfortable hotel".

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 26.03.2024 18:07, Tweed wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 26.03.2024 12:07, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There’s been a number of Sleeper articles in the Times of late. The one
>>>> before this started off with high hopes but found the reality of getting a
>>>> good night’s sleep somewhat different. I’ve used couchettes many years ago,
>>>> and the Caledonian Sleeper around 5 years ago. The common theme was
>>>> spending the following day feeling rotten through lack of sleep.
>>>
>>> The alternative is to get up at 04.00 so I can be at the airport for an
>>> 06.30 flight, or alternatively leave home at 17.00 the evening before
>>> and lose that evening and pay for an extra night in a hotel. Sleepers
>>> don't have to be perfect, they just have to find a better ballance of
>>> price and comfort compared with the alternatives.
>>>
>> I prefer the travel the evening before option and stay in a comfortable
>> hotel.
>
> I prefer to have a limousine pick me up and drive me to a private
> airfield where a private jet flies me to my destination on demand, from
> where another limousine drives me to my destination on a whim. My
> budget, however, does not stretch to anything like that. It's about
> finding the right tradeoff. Not everybody is free to give up the
> afternoon/evening of the day before to travel, and not every budget can
> stretch to an additional night in a "comfortable hotel".
>
> Robin
>
I’d be interested to see the true cost of the sleeper (not the once in a
blue moon super low price dreamt up for a newspaper article) vs plane +
hotel. I’ve been looking at the cost of getting to Vienna just now.
Business class from Heathrow is £160 and the Radisson in central Vienna is
£130. Flying economy and choosing a budget hotel will be cheaper.

I’m curious as to how the economics of a European sleeper work out. At best
it can carry the equivalent of two narrow body jets, is tied up in use all
night for one trip and can’t be used during the day. The Caledonian sleeper
needs a big subsidy I believe. ŌBB seem to think they can make it work
though.

Side note: hotels in mainland Europe seem to be a lot cheaper than UK
hotels these days.

On 26.03.2024 18:39, Tweed wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 26.03.2024 18:07, Tweed wrote:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 26.03.2024 12:07, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There’s been a number of Sleeper articles in the Times of late. The one
>>>>> before this started off with high hopes but found the reality of getting a
>>>>> good night’s sleep somewhat different. I’ve used couchettes many years ago,
>>>>> and the Caledonian Sleeper around 5 years ago. The common theme was
>>>>> spending the following day feeling rotten through lack of sleep.
>>>>
>>>> The alternative is to get up at 04.00 so I can be at the airport for an
>>>> 06.30 flight, or alternatively leave home at 17.00 the evening before
>>>> and lose that evening and pay for an extra night in a hotel. Sleepers
>>>> don't have to be perfect, they just have to find a better ballance of
>>>> price and comfort compared with the alternatives.
>>>>
>>> I prefer the travel the evening before option and stay in a comfortable
>>> hotel.
>>
>> I prefer to have a limousine pick me up and drive me to a private
>> airfield where a private jet flies me to my destination on demand, from
>> where another limousine drives me to my destination on a whim. My
>> budget, however, does not stretch to anything like that. It's about
>> finding the right tradeoff. Not everybody is free to give up the
>> afternoon/evening of the day before to travel, and not every budget can
>> stretch to an additional night in a "comfortable hotel".
>
> I’d be interested to see the true cost of the sleeper (not the once in a
> blue moon super low price dreamt up for a newspaper article) vs plane +
> hotel. I’ve been looking at the cost of getting to Vienna just now.
> Business class from Heathrow is £160 and the Radisson in central Vienna is
> £130. Flying economy and choosing a budget hotel will be cheaper.

Vienna is a bit far, from the UK, for a sleeper. The current NightJet
from Paris departs at 18.58 and gets into Vinna at 10.12. Connecting
from the UK would likely mean an early afternoon departure, putting it
comfortably outside the core "evening departure, breakfast time arrival"
bracket.

One of the problems with travelling the day before is that it takes a
significant chunk of the day before. If I want to get that "good night's
sleep in a comfortable hotel", then I don't want to be checking in at
23.00. For a European destination from a UK departure, that means you're
realistically looking at needing to get to the airport around 17.30 to
18.00. My personal experience of that sort of flight is that gets me to
my final destination around 22.00 European time. So no time for a proper
dinner, and depending on the airport, potentially having to finish work
for the day early.

> I’m curious as to how the economics of a European sleeper work out. At best
> it can carry the equivalent of two narrow body jets, is tied up in use all
> night for one trip and can’t be used during the day. The Caledonian sleeper
> needs a big subsidy I believe. ŌBB seem to think they can make it work
> though.

ÖBB definitely claim that they make money on their sleeper network, and
have sufficient confidence in it to have placed a substantial order for
new rolling stock. My experience in the last couple of years is that the
number one reason I have not made night train journeys is lack of
availability. The reports I have seen online about it suggest they fill
up fast, so are likely running with pretty healthy load factors.

Robin

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9
>>
>>
>>
>
> There’s been a number of Sleeper articles in the Times of late. The one
> before this started off with high hopes but found the reality of getting a
> good night’s sleep somewhat different. I’ve used couchettes many years ago,
> and the Caledonian Sleeper around 5 years ago. The common theme was
> spending the following day feeling rotten through lack of sleep.
>

I wonder if those who do more than one journey get a better one having got
used to it?
Often people don’t settle even in a hotel on the first night due to the
ambience being different than at
home and different sounds some of which may sound a bit alarming . I
recall one night in a hotel
thinking around 4AM that we had chosen a rum area to stay as vandals were
smashing windows or something. Turned out it was a truck emptying glass
recycle bins.

GH

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 26.03.2024 18:39, Tweed wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 26.03.2024 18:07, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 26.03.2024 12:07, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There’s been a number of Sleeper articles in the Times of late. The one
>>>>>> before this started off with high hopes but found the reality of getting a
>>>>>> good night’s sleep somewhat different. I’ve used couchettes many years ago,
>>>>>> and the Caledonian Sleeper around 5 years ago. The common theme was
>>>>>> spending the following day feeling rotten through lack of sleep.
>>>>>
>>>>> The alternative is to get up at 04.00 so I can be at the airport for an
>>>>> 06.30 flight, or alternatively leave home at 17.00 the evening before
>>>>> and lose that evening and pay for an extra night in a hotel. Sleepers
>>>>> don't have to be perfect, they just have to find a better ballance of
>>>>> price and comfort compared with the alternatives.
>>>>>
>>>> I prefer the travel the evening before option and stay in a comfortable
>>>> hotel.
>>>
>>> I prefer to have a limousine pick me up and drive me to a private
>>> airfield where a private jet flies me to my destination on demand, from
>>> where another limousine drives me to my destination on a whim. My
>>> budget, however, does not stretch to anything like that. It's about
>>> finding the right tradeoff. Not everybody is free to give up the
>>> afternoon/evening of the day before to travel, and not every budget can
>>> stretch to an additional night in a "comfortable hotel".
>>
>> I’d be interested to see the true cost of the sleeper (not the once in a
>> blue moon super low price dreamt up for a newspaper article) vs plane +
>> hotel. I’ve been looking at the cost of getting to Vienna just now.
>> Business class from Heathrow is £160 and the Radisson in central Vienna is
>> £130. Flying economy and choosing a budget hotel will be cheaper.
>
> Vienna is a bit far, from the UK, for a sleeper. The current NightJet
> from Paris departs at 18.58 and gets into Vinna at 10.12. Connecting
> from the UK would likely mean an early afternoon departure, putting it
> comfortably outside the core "evening departure, breakfast time arrival"
> bracket.
>
> One of the problems with travelling the day before is that it takes a
> significant chunk of the day before. If I want to get that "good night's
> sleep in a comfortable hotel", then I don't want to be checking in at
> 23.00. For a European destination from a UK departure, that means you're
> realistically looking at needing to get to the airport around 17.30 to
> 18.00. My personal experience of that sort of flight is that gets me to
> my final destination around 22.00 European time. So no time for a proper
> dinner, and depending on the airport, potentially having to finish work
> for the day early.
>
>> I’m curious as to how the economics of a European sleeper work out. At best
>> it can carry the equivalent of two narrow body jets, is tied up in use all
>> night for one trip and can’t be used during the day. The Caledonian sleeper
>> needs a big subsidy I believe. ŌBB seem to think they can make it work
>> though.
>
> ÖBB definitely claim that they make money on their sleeper network, and
> have sufficient confidence in it to have placed a substantial order for
> new rolling stock. My experience in the last couple of years is that the
> number one reason I have not made night train journeys is lack of
> availability. The reports I have seen online about it suggest they fill
> up fast, so are likely running with pretty healthy load factors.

I’m currently researching how to get to Puglia by rail in September. One
of the options includes the Munich-Rome sleeper.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 26/03/2024 10:57, Recliner wrote:

> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9

Not last night (26th) for some. The train was cancelled between
Bruxelles and Aachen!
--
Rob
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational
in order to prove that you care, or, indeed, why it should be necessary
to prove it at all." - Avon, Blake's 7

Ben Clatworthy: My £59 night on the first sleeper train from Brussels to
Prague

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e0a8fa21-ddb0-47c9-94fc-69de1205e724?shareToken=dba57fc74a2a56d906e188a6b04ce8ce

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> My Mini Cabin soon became uncomfortably hot; ceiling fans offered a single,
> deathbed exhale of air. I felt as if I were being cooked in a confined
> space, like a ready meal in a microwave. I opened the cabin door for some
> oxygen but this too proved futile; with the rolling of the carriage the
> door slammed shut, slicing at my toes like a guillotine.
>
> There were other grumbles. Both bathrooms in our carriage were out of
> action. The pillow was measly. It took until 2am for me to get to sleep,
> and at 4.30am the Mini Cabin lights inexplicably switched on,
> poltergeist-like, at Nuremberg. Later, Smith explained to me that this had
> been a recurring problem: a software glitch previously meant that toilets
> flushed and fire alarms rang out when locomotives changed at Nuremberg. He
> is confident that these are teething problems. All the same, I couldn’t get
> back to sleep.

It should be said that these trains are more or less a charter train of
MkIs. Since so little sleeper stock has been built for decades, and OeBB
has snapped up what has, these new companies are left fishing at the bottom
of a very shallow pool for stock, having to scrape up the few coaches that
remain.

This is not helped by the big railway operators (SNCF, DB, RENFE,
Trenitalia), the ones stock tends to trickle down from, not being very
bothered about international night trains both now and for a long time past.

https://trainsforeurope.eu/
makes a good case for the EU to invest in a new fleet of sleeper stock.
It sounds like things are gradually moving towards procurement of a new
batch of sleeper coaches.

Theo

On 28 Mar 2024 11:25:17 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> My Mini Cabin soon became uncomfortably hot; ceiling fans offered a single,
>> deathbed exhale of air. I felt as if I were being cooked in a confined
>> space, like a ready meal in a microwave. I opened the cabin door for some
>> oxygen but this too proved futile; with the rolling of the carriage the
>> door slammed shut, slicing at my toes like a guillotine.
>>
>> There were other grumbles. Both bathrooms in our carriage were out of
>> action. The pillow was measly. It took until 2am for me to get to sleep,
>> and at 4.30am the Mini Cabin lights inexplicably switched on,
>> poltergeist-like, at Nuremberg. Later, Smith explained to me that this had
>> been a recurring problem: a software glitch previously meant that toilets
>> flushed and fire alarms rang out when locomotives changed at Nuremberg. He
>> is confident that these are teething problems. All the same, I couldn’t get
>> back to sleep.
>
>It should be said that these trains are more or less a charter train of
>MkIs.

Yes, that sounds like a good description.

> Since so little sleeper stock has been built for decades, and OeBB
>has snapped up what has, these new companies are left fishing at the bottom
>of a very shallow pool for stock, having to scrape up the few coaches that
>remain.

I assume it's not practical to strip out and convert newer day coaches into sleepers?

>
>This is not helped by the big railway operators (SNCF, DB, RENFE,
>Trenitalia), the ones stock tends to trickle down from, not being very
>bothered about international night trains both now and for a long time past.
>
>https://trainsforeurope.eu/
>makes a good case for the EU to invest in a new fleet of sleeper stock.
>It sounds like things are gradually moving towards procurement of a new
>batch of sleeper coaches.
>
>Theo

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 Mar 2024 11:25:17 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >It should be said that these trains are more or less a charter train of
> >MkIs.
>
> Yes, that sounds like a good description.
>
> > Since so little sleeper stock has been built for decades, and OeBB
> >has snapped up what has, these new companies are left fishing at the bottom
> >of a very shallow pool for stock, having to scrape up the few coaches that
> >remain.
>
> I assume it's not practical to strip out and convert newer day coaches into sleepers?

https://trainsforeurope.eu/detail/is-there-anything-else-that-could-be-done-other-than-procuring-new-trains/

"In short: there is some potential in re-building daytime carriages, but not
enough to scale night trains to the extent Trains for Europe advocates."

You'd probably have to do custom engineering for each type, so it would
depend on having enough of a particular type available. And custom
engineering like fitting modern hotel facilities isn't going to be cheap,
and rebuilt decades old coaches won't last for ever. Plus we all know how
conversion has gone in the UK...

Interestingly that link mentions DB have a catalogue of used day trains
available for all your train-shopping needs:
https://www.db-usedtrain.com/f?p=222:200:5152955286953:::::

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> https://trainsforeurope.eu/detail/is-there-anything-else-that-could-be-done-other-than-procuring-new-trains/
>
> "In short: there is some potential in re-building daytime carriages, but not
> enough to scale night trains to the extent Trains for Europe advocates."
>
> You'd probably have to do custom engineering for each type, so it would
> depend on having enough of a particular type available. And custom
> engineering like fitting modern hotel facilities isn't going to be cheap,
> and rebuilt decades old coaches won't last for ever.

What is the situation in European Countries with flushing toilets directly
onto the track?
ICBW but I think it is almost eliminated now in Britain except for Heritage
coaches.
Would any rebuild of an older coach require adding retention tanks , that
would be quite a cost to achieve.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://trainsforeurope.eu/detail/is-there-anything-else-that-could-be-done-other-than-procuring-new-trains/
>>
>> "In short: there is some potential in re-building daytime carriages, but not
>> enough to scale night trains to the extent Trains for Europe advocates."
>>
>> You'd probably have to do custom engineering for each type, so it would
>> depend on having enough of a particular type available. And custom
>> engineering like fitting modern hotel facilities isn't going to be cheap,
>> and rebuilt decades old coaches won't last for ever.
>
> What is the situation in European Countries with flushing toilets directly
> onto the track?
> ICBW but I think it is almost eliminated now in Britain except for Heritage
> coaches.
> Would any rebuild of an older coach require adding retention tanks , that
> would be quite a cost to achieve.

I think that retention tank toilets have long been the norm on Continental
trains, so any carriages with enough life to be worth converting will
already have them. Of course, additional mid-carriage toilets may need to
be fitted if en suites are installed.

On 28/03/2024 15:42, Recliner wrote:

> I think that retention tank toilets have long been the norm on Continental
> trains, so any carriages with enough life to be worth converting will
> already have them.

In places such as Germany, yes. However countries such as Italy and
those further east in Europe have been much slower to adapt.

Ta,
--
Rob
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational
in order to prove that you care, or, indeed, why it should be necessary
to prove it at all." - Avon, Blake's 7

On 26 Mar 2024 20:24:30 GMT, Marland wrote:

> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a10bc4e2-a535-4803-b104-
c1b0768d7530?shareToken=afca59f9c583bbb93f2b6a50189dded9
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> There’s been a number of Sleeper articles in the Times of late. The one
>> before this started off with high hopes but found the reality of
>> getting a good night’s sleep somewhat different. I’ve used couchettes
>> many years ago,
>> and the Caledonian Sleeper around 5 years ago. The common theme was
>> spending the following day feeling rotten through lack of sleep.
>>
>>
> I wonder if those who do more than one journey get a better one having
> got used to it?

I travel by sleepers fairly regularly (perhaps half a dozen trips a year -
not exactly commuting, but still often enough) and look forward to every
trip - there's something about the motion of the train and the background
clatter that sends me straight off to sleep like a log.

I even have a 'white noise' app on my phone with a "railway noise" option
that I will sometimes use if I'm struggling to sleep in a hotel room
(normally because of jetlag.)

Whereas planes, even in the fanciest biz or 1st lie-flat seat, I never get
a decent night's rest on. (That said, I do find the A350 better than
most, so that may partly be a cabin-pressure thing - I've always been very
fussy about (perceived - doubtless it's psychosomatic) oxygen levels when
I'm sleeping - I can't sleep if there's anything near my face that
restricts air movement.)

Sam Wilson wrote:

> I’m currently researching how to get to Puglia by rail in September. One
> of the options includes the Munich-Rome sleeper.

I hope you don't plan to leave Munich during the
first eight days of the month.

Regards, ULF

ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
> Sam Wilson wrote:
>
>
>> I’m currently researching how to get to Puglia by rail in September. One
>> of the options includes the Munich-Rome sleeper.
>
> I hope you don't plan to leave Munich during the
> first eight days of the month.

I was actually checking OeBB yesterday and noticed some oddities (I had
been hoping to travel on the 8th). Can you enlighten me?

Sam

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Sam Wilson wrote:

> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I’m currently researching how to get to Puglia by rail in September. One
>>> of the options includes the Munich-Rome sleeper.
>>
>> I hope you don't plan to leave Munich during the
>> first eight days of the month.

> I was actually checking OeBB yesterday and noticed some oddities (I had
> been hoping to travel on the 8th). Can you enlighten me?

As far as I understand, there are construction works in summer,
so ÖBB, not
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oensingen-Balsthal-Bahn
but I understand it's difficult for you to find Ö, decided
to discontinue this overnight service for two months and a half
or so. September 9th should be the first day of operation of
the new overnight trainsets on the given route. Not all travellers
appreciate the new couchette minicabins, no room for luggage, and
ventilation is said to be poor.

Regards, ULF

ulf_kutzner wrote:

> Sam Wilson wrote:

>> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I’m currently researching how to get to Puglia by rail in September. One
>>>> of the options includes the Munich-Rome sleeper.
>>>
>>> I hope you don't plan to leave Munich during the
>>> first eight days of the month.

>> I was actually checking OeBB yesterday and noticed some oddities (I had
>> been hoping to travel on the 8th). Can you enlighten me?

> As far as I understand, there are construction works in summer,
> so ÖBB, not
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oensingen-Balsthal-Bahn
> but I understand it's difficult for you to find Ö, decided
> to discontinue this overnight service for two months and a half
> or so.

Three monts and one day:

https://www.oebb.at/en/

ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
> Sam Wilson wrote:
>
>> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I’m currently researching how to get to Puglia by rail in September. One
>>>> of the options includes the Munich-Rome sleeper.
>>>
>>> I hope you don't plan to leave Munich during the
>>> first eight days of the month.
>
>> I was actually checking OeBB yesterday and noticed some oddities (I had
>> been hoping to travel on the 8th). Can you enlighten me?
>
> As far as I understand, there are construction works in summer,
> so ÖBB, not
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oensingen-Balsthal-Bahn
> but I understand it's difficult for you to find Ö, …

Not difficult at all, but some of our friends’ browsers have trouble with
some characters so I try to use the official alternative to the umlaut.
Anyway ÖBB’s web site is oebb.at!

> … decided
> to discontinue this overnight service for two months and a half
> or so. September 9th should be the first day of operation of
> the new overnight trainsets on the given route. Not all travellers
> appreciate the new couchette minicabins, no room for luggage, and
> ventilation is said to be poor.

Thanks for that and the followup posting. I’m having great difficulty
trying to book anything around that time - 8, 9 10 Sep. Some sites don’t
recognise the train at all, some will show it but won’t sell a ticket, some
show the train but then say it’s not running. I can’t tell whether there’s
a problem with the booking engines, whether the train isn’t running at all,
or whether all the dates I want are already booked up. Oddly The Man In
Seat 61 doesn’t mention any problems.

Sam

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