I was thinking today on the train - is ScotRail subject to penalties
for late-running of trains, or being a (Scottish) Government owned
company does money no longer change hands? Somebody will know :-)

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:49:54 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>I was thinking today on the train - is ScotRail subject to penalties
>for late-running of trains, or being a (Scottish) Government owned
>company does money no longer change hands? Somebody will know :-)

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/plan-your-journey/our-delay-repay-guarantee

On 23/02/2024 14:35, Recliner wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:49:54 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I was thinking today on the train - is ScotRail subject to penalties
>> for late-running of trains, or being a (Scottish) Government owned
>> company does money no longer change hands? Somebody will know :-)
>
> https://www.scotrail.co.uk/plan-your-journey/our-delay-repay-guarantee

I would have thought the query related to Section 8 payments, which
Scotrail must surely have to pay, but, do they now run the Infrastructure?
If so, they would still have to pay other Operators for delays caused by
track problems, so I cannot see why the Scotrail train operator would
not have to pay for delays caused by their trains. Not doing so would
make the accounting more difficult, and being as it's all going to the
same pot now, it wouldnt make any difference to finances overall, but
just add an extra level of bureaucracy(1)

(1)I had to google that spelling,it isnt a word I often use, and I had a
mental block typing it.

On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 08:23:06 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:

>On 23/02/2024 14:35, Recliner wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:49:54 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> I was thinking today on the train - is ScotRail subject to penalties
>>> for late-running of trains, or being a (Scottish) Government owned
>>> company does money no longer change hands? Somebody will know :-)
>>
>> https://www.scotrail.co.uk/plan-your-journey/our-delay-repay-guarantee
>
>I would have thought the query related to Section 8 payments, which
>Scotrail must surely have to pay, but, do they now run the Infrastructure?

No, ScotRail and NR remain separate organisations, but they work more closely together than elsewhere.

>If so, they would still have to pay other Operators for delays caused by
>track problems, so I cannot see why the Scotrail train operator would
>not have to pay for delays caused by their trains.

Agreed. If a ScotRail train causes delays to other trains, it will be liable for penalties just like any other TOC,
whether State-owned or contracted out. In any case, all TOC finances are now the responsibility of the State throughout
the UK.

> Not doing so would
>make the accounting more difficult, and being as it's all going to the
>same pot now, it wouldnt make any difference to finances overall, but
>just add an extra level of bureaucracy(1)
>
>(1)I had to google that spelling,it isnt a word I often use, and I had a
>mental block typing it.

In message <375ktit73g588a92ko86qdn0o5hunm4lmg@4ax.com>, at 16:13:11 on
Sat, 24 Feb 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 08:23:06 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:
>
>>On 23/02/2024 14:35, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:49:54 +0000, Scott
>>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was thinking today on the train - is ScotRail subject to penalties
>>>> for late-running of trains, or being a (Scottish) Government owned
>>>> company does money no longer change hands? Somebody will know :-)
>>>
>>> https://www.scotrail.co.uk/plan-your-journey/our-delay-repay-guarantee
>>
>>I would have thought the query related to Section 8 payments, which
>>Scotrail must surely have to pay, but, do they now run the Infrastructure?
>
>No, ScotRail and NR remain separate organisations, but they work more
>closely together than elsewhere.
>
>>If so, they would still have to pay other Operators for delays caused by
>>track problems, so I cannot see why the Scotrail train operator would
>>not have to pay for delays caused by their trains.
>
>Agreed. If a ScotRail train causes delays to other trains, it will be
>liable for penalties just like any other TOC, whether State-owned or
>contracted out. In any case, all TOC finances are now the
>responsibility of the State throughout the UK.

Even Open-Access operators?

>> Not doing so would
>>make the accounting more difficult, and being as it's all going to the
>>same pot now, it wouldnt make any difference to finances overall, but
>>just add an extra level of bureaucracy(1)
>>
>>(1)I had to google that spelling,it isnt a word I often use, and I had a
>>mental block typing it.

--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 16:32:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <375ktit73g588a92ko86qdn0o5hunm4lmg@4ax.com>, at 16:13:11 on
>Sat, 24 Feb 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 08:23:06 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 23/02/2024 14:35, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:49:54 +0000, Scott
>>>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was thinking today on the train - is ScotRail subject to penalties
>>>>> for late-running of trains, or being a (Scottish) Government owned
>>>>> company does money no longer change hands? Somebody will know :-)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.scotrail.co.uk/plan-your-journey/our-delay-repay-guarantee
>>>
>>>I would have thought the query related to Section 8 payments, which
>>>Scotrail must surely have to pay, but, do they now run the Infrastructure?
>>
>>No, ScotRail and NR remain separate organisations, but they work more
>>closely together than elsewhere.
>>
>>>If so, they would still have to pay other Operators for delays caused by
>>>track problems, so I cannot see why the Scotrail train operator would
>>>not have to pay for delays caused by their trains.
>>
>>Agreed. If a ScotRail train causes delays to other trains, it will be
>>liable for penalties just like any other TOC, whether State-owned or
>>contracted out. In any case, all TOC finances are now the
>>responsibility of the State throughout the UK.
>
>Even Open-Access operators?

To avoid confusion, I wouldn't refer to them as TOCs. I only use 'TOCs' to refer to state passenger franchises, not open
access operators or freight operators.

I though that was clear from my wording: "any other TOC, whether State-owned or contracted out". I'm sorry if it wasn't
clear enough.

In message <vk9ktipnt6cs2245rfs293lah346ku5l71@4ax.com>, at 17:31:00 on
Sat, 24 Feb 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 16:32:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <375ktit73g588a92ko86qdn0o5hunm4lmg@4ax.com>, at 16:13:11 on
>>Sat, 24 Feb 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 08:23:06 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 23/02/2024 14:35, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:49:54 +0000, Scott
>>>>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was thinking today on the train - is ScotRail subject to penalties
>>>>>> for late-running of trains, or being a (Scottish) Government owned
>>>>>> company does money no longer change hands? Somebody will know :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.scotrail.co.uk/plan-your-journey/our-delay-repay-guarantee
>>>>
>>>>I would have thought the query related to Section 8 payments, which
>>>>Scotrail must surely have to pay, but, do they now run the Infrastructure?
>>>
>>>No, ScotRail and NR remain separate organisations, but they work more
>>>closely together than elsewhere.
>>>
>>>>If so, they would still have to pay other Operators for delays caused by
>>>>track problems, so I cannot see why the Scotrail train operator would
>>>>not have to pay for delays caused by their trains.
>>>
>>>Agreed. If a ScotRail train causes delays to other trains, it will be
>>>liable for penalties just like any other TOC, whether State-owned or
>>>contracted out. In any case, all TOC finances are now the
>>>responsibility of the State throughout the UK.
>>
>>Even Open-Access operators?
>
>To avoid confusion, I wouldn't refer to them as TOCs. I only use 'TOCs'
>to refer to state passenger franchises, not open access operators or
>freight operators.

Sometimes it's best to explain private meanings up front, to avoid
confusion.

Similarly, wonkypedia has its own interpretation:

"Ownership [of Hull Trains] was originally divided between an 80
per cent stake held by the train operating company (TOC) GB
Railways, while the former British Rail managers Mike Jones and
John Nelson held the remainder.

>I though that was clear from my wording: "any other TOC, whether State-
>owned or contracted out". I'm sorry if it wasn't clear enough.

It was ambiguous, so needed clarifying.
--
Roland Perry