https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-cap-services-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner

With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to be
capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle entry
checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to cope with
numbers.

Robin

On 04/02/2024 16:06, Bob wrote:
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-cap-services-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner
>
> With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
> insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
> passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to be
> capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle entry
> checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to cope with
> numbers.
>
> Robin

What a surprise, an anti-BREXIT story in the Grauniad!

On 04/02/2024 18:51, JMB99 wrote:
> On 04/02/2024 16:06, Bob wrote:
>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-cap-services-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner
>>
>> With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
>> insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
>> passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to
>> be capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle
>> entry checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to cope
>> with numbers.
>>
>> Robin
>
>
> What a surprise, an anti-BREXIT story in the Grauniad!
>
>
This story has been elsewhere as wel.

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 04/02/2024 18:51, JMB99 wrote:
>> On 04/02/2024 16:06, Bob wrote:
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-cap-services-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner
>>>
>>> With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
>>> insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
>>> passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to
>>> be capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle
>>> entry checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to cope
>>> with numbers.
>>>
>>> Robin
>>
>>
>> What a surprise, an anti-BREXIT story in the Grauniad!
>>
>>
> This story has been elsewhere as wel.
>

What that report fails to make clear is whether this is a temporary
situation, while British travellers register for the first time, after
which it'll be quicker than now, or permanent. I think it's the former.

On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 15:28:31 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/02/2024 18:51, JMB99 wrote:
>>> On 04/02/2024 16:06, Bob wrote:
>>>>
>https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-cap-ser
>vices-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner
>>>>
>>>> With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
>>>> insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
>>>> passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to
>>>> be capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle
>>>> entry checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to cope
>>>> with numbers.
>>>>
>>>> Robin
>>>
>>>
>>> What a surprise, an anti-BREXIT story in the Grauniad!
>>>
>>>
>> This story has been elsewhere as wel.
>>
>
>What that report fails to make clear is whether this is a temporary
>situation, while British travellers register for the first time, after
>which it'll be quicker than now, or permanent. I think it's the former.

Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints. I don't see why I have
to offer them up to the EU. Seems EES is little more than a Me-Too trying to
outdo the Americans and is completely unnecessary and futile. Unless Brussels
is planning to put all the migrants on boats in the med in front of an EES
camera and not let them in if they don't pass.

On 05.02.2024 16:28, Recliner wrote:
> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/02/2024 18:51, JMB99 wrote:
>>> On 04/02/2024 16:06, Bob wrote:
>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-cap-services-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner
>>>>
>>>> With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
>>>> insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
>>>> passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to
>>>> be capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle
>>>> entry checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to cope
>>>> with numbers.
>>>>
>>>> Robin
>>>
>>>
>>> What a surprise, an anti-BREXIT story in the Grauniad!
>>>
>>>
>> This story has been elsewhere as wel.
>>
>
> What that report fails to make clear is whether this is a temporary
> situation, while British travellers register for the first time, after
> which it'll be quicker than now, or permanent. I think it's the former.

The EES is a permanent thing. These new gates are the devices that will
check your identity against the data submitted in order to obtain the
not-a-visa visa, and will be permanent.

Robin

On 05.02.2024 16:58, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 15:28:31 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/02/2024 18:51, JMB99 wrote:
>>>> On 04/02/2024 16:06, Bob wrote:
>>>>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-cap-ser
>> vices-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner
>>>>>
>>>>> With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
>>>>> insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
>>>>> passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to
>>>>> be capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle
>>>>> entry checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to cope
>>>>> with numbers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What a surprise, an anti-BREXIT story in the Grauniad!
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This story has been elsewhere as wel.
>>>
>>
>> What that report fails to make clear is whether this is a temporary
>> situation, while British travellers register for the first time, after
>> which it'll be quicker than now, or permanent. I think it's the former.
>
> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints. I don't see why I have
> to offer them up to the EU. Seems EES is little more than a Me-Too trying to
> outdo the Americans and is completely unnecessary and futile. Unless Brussels
> is planning to put all the migrants on boats in the med in front of an EES
> camera and not let them in if they don't pass.

Similar systems are being adopted by, basically, every country. At
present such systems are in place or in the process of being deployed by
USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, EU and UK. It was pretty much
inevitable that, with the advance of the internet and of technology to
record and store biometric data, basically every country would decided
it "needs" to do this for all foreign visitors.

Robin

On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 17:51:35 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 05.02.2024 16:58, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints. I don't see why I have
>> to offer them up to the EU. Seems EES is little more than a Me-Too trying to
>> outdo the Americans and is completely unnecessary and futile. Unless Brussels
>
>> is planning to put all the migrants on boats in the med in front of an EES
>> camera and not let them in if they don't pass.
>
>Similar systems are being adopted by, basically, every country. At
>present such systems are in place or in the process of being deployed by
>USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, EU and UK. It was pretty much
>inevitable that, with the advance of the internet and of technology to
>record and store biometric data, basically every country would decided
>it "needs" to do this for all foreign visitors.

Like I said , just Me-Too. Criminals will find a way around it as they usually
do and the only people it'll probably catch are overstayers while in the
meantime causing a boatload of hassle for normal travellers.

On 05/02/2024 15:58, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 15:28:31 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/02/2024 18:51, JMB99 wrote:
>>>> On 04/02/2024 16:06, Bob wrote:
>>>>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-cap-ser
>> vices-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner
>>>>>
>>>>> With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
>>>>> insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
>>>>> passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to
>>>>> be capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle
>>>>> entry checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to cope
>>>>> with numbers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What a surprise, an anti-BREXIT story in the Grauniad!
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This story has been elsewhere as wel.
>>>
>>
>> What that report fails to make clear is whether this is a temporary
>> situation, while British travellers register for the first time, after
>> which it'll be quicker than now, or permanent. I think it's the former.
>
> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints. I don't see why I have
> to offer them up to the EU. Seems EES is little more than a Me-Too trying to
> outdo the Americans and is completely unnecessary and futile. Unless Brussels
> is planning to put all the migrants on boats in the med in front of an EES
> camera and not let them in if they don't pass.
>
I hope HMG puts reciprocal arrangements in place,

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 05.02.2024 16:28, Recliner wrote:
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/02/2024 18:51, JMB99 wrote:
>>>> On 04/02/2024 16:06, Bob wrote:
>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-cap-services-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner
>>>>>
>>>>> With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
>>>>> insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
>>>>> passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to
>>>>> be capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle
>>>>> entry checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to cope
>>>>> with numbers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What a surprise, an anti-BREXIT story in the Grauniad!
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This story has been elsewhere as wel.
>>>
>>
>> What that report fails to make clear is whether this is a temporary
>> situation, while British travellers register for the first time, after
>> which it'll be quicker than now, or permanent. I think it's the former.
>
> The EES is a permanent thing. These new gates are the devices that will
> check your identity against the data submitted in order to obtain the
> not-a-visa visa, and will be permanent.

The gates are permanent, but the registration delay will only occur on the
first occasion you use them after ETIAS comes in. Thereafter, we should
pass through them as fast as EU citizens.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 17:51:35 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 05.02.2024 16:58, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints. I don't see why I have
>>> to offer them up to the EU. Seems EES is little more than a Me-Too trying to
>>> outdo the Americans and is completely unnecessary and futile. Unless Brussels
>>
>>> is planning to put all the migrants on boats in the med in front of an EES
>>> camera and not let them in if they don't pass.
>>
>> Similar systems are being adopted by, basically, every country. At
>> present such systems are in place or in the process of being deployed by
>> USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, EU and UK. It was pretty much
>> inevitable that, with the advance of the internet and of technology to
>> record and store biometric data, basically every country would decided
>> it "needs" to do this for all foreign visitors.
>
> Like I said , just Me-Too. Criminals will find a way around it as they usually
> do and the only people it'll probably catch are overstayers while in the
> meantime causing a boatload of hassle for normal travellers.

“boatload” - ISWYDT

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 05/02/2024 15:58, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 15:28:31 GMT
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 04/02/2024 18:51, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>> On 04/02/2024 16:06, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-cap-ser
>>> vices-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
>>>>>> insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
>>>>>> passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to
>>>>>> be capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle
>>>>>> entry checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to cope
>>>>>> with numbers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What a surprise, an anti-BREXIT story in the Grauniad!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> This story has been elsewhere as wel.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What that report fails to make clear is whether this is a temporary
>>> situation, while British travellers register for the first time, after
>>> which it'll be quicker than now, or permanent. I think it's the former.
>>
>> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints. I don't see why I have
>> to offer them up to the EU. Seems EES is little more than a Me-Too trying to
>> outdo the Americans and is completely unnecessary and futile. Unless Brussels
>> is planning to put all the migrants on boats in the med in front of an EES
>> camera and not let them in if they don't pass.
>>
> I hope HMG puts reciprocal arrangements in place,
>

Yup, it's already started to roll out:

https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/2024/02/01/electronic-travel-authorisation-eta-scheme-factsheet-february-2024/

On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 17:12:43 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 05/02/2024 15:58, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 15:28:31 GMT
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 04/02/2024 18:51, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/02/2024 16:06, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-cap-ser
>>>> vices-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
>>>>>>> insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
>>>>>>> passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to
>>>>>>> be capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle
>>>>>>> entry checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to cope
>>>>>>> with numbers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What a surprise, an anti-BREXIT story in the Grauniad!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> This story has been elsewhere as wel.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What that report fails to make clear is whether this is a temporary
>>>> situation, while British travellers register for the first time, after
>>>> which it'll be quicker than now, or permanent. I think it's the former.
>>>
>>> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints. I don't see why I have
>>> to offer them up to the EU. Seems EES is little more than a Me-Too trying to
>>> outdo the Americans and is completely unnecessary and futile. Unless Brussels
>>> is planning to put all the migrants on boats in the med in front of an EES
>>> camera and not let them in if they don't pass.
>>>
>> I hope HMG puts reciprocal arrangements in place,
>>
>
>Yup, it's already started to roll out:
>
>https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/2024/02/01/electronic-travel-authorisation-eta-scheme-factsheet-february-2024/

But eTA's won't/don't require fingerprints, certainly the ones I've
experienced, notably Aotearoa New Zealand, Australia, and Argentina.
(Canadians like their a's, eh>? <g>)

The UK application requires a photo, which the above three never
did... and the shared-coverage Canada/US eTA doesn't ask for one
either AFAIK.

The Argies ten years ago photographed and fingerprinted everyone on
landing at EZE, not a pleasant waiting experience with three packed
large aircraft arriving at the same time. Fingerprints were checked
*on exit*, er... boarding a cruise... with officialdom apparently
ignoring the fact passengers were being allowed back onshore without
passports the following day to practise our tango skills, and also
later calling at Puerto Madryn and Úshuaia, as well as Stanley in
their beloved Malvinas.

In message <upr0jc$bsc6$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:36 on Mon, 5 Feb
2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints.

Odd how people will give their smartphone provider (almost always
outside the reach of GDPR) their fingerprints.

ps Anyone with a US Driving Licence or Green Card has had to provide
fingerprints for over 20urs. Then there's "aliens" entering the USA
on Visa Waiver.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 13:16:50 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <upr0jc$bsc6$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:36 on Mon, 5 Feb
>2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints.
>
>Odd how people will give their smartphone provider (almost always
>outside the reach of GDPR) their fingerprints.

The phone doesn't need to upload the fingerprints to process them otherwise
you'd never be able to unlock a phone that didn't have a working connection.

>ps Anyone with a US Driving Licence or Green Card has had to provide
> fingerprints for over 20urs. Then there's "aliens" entering the USA
> on Visa Waiver.

Your own government having your details is par for the course in most
societies. A foreign government or confederation like the EU having them is a
different kettle of fish.

On 06/02/2024 16:07, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 13:16:50 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <upr0jc$bsc6$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:36 on Mon, 5 Feb
>> 2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints.
>>
>> Odd how people will give their smartphone provider (almost always
>> outside the reach of GDPR) their fingerprints.
>
> The phone doesn't need to upload the fingerprints to process them otherwise
> you'd never be able to unlock a phone that didn't have a working connection.

It doesn't *need* to upload the fingerprints but it will, because it can
and Big Tech loves collecting data in case they find a use for it later.

>> ps Anyone with a US Driving Licence or Green Card has had to provide
>> fingerprints for over 20urs. Then there's "aliens" entering the USA
>> on Visa Waiver.
>
> Your own government having your details is par for the course in most
> societies. A foreign government or confederation like the EU having them is a
> different kettle of fish.

On 06.02.2024 14:16, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <upr0jc$bsc6$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:36 on Mon, 5 Feb
> 2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints.
>
> Odd how people will give their smartphone provider (almost always
> outside the reach of GDPR) their fingerprints.

I will give my smartphone itself my fingerprints, but the data from the
fingerprint scans does not get sent on to the phone provider. (Obviously
I have to take their word for it, but the feature has been around for
years as has the claim, and as a high profile phone manufacturer, it is
likely that lots of people have tried their best to get through the
security and would have made a loud noise if they found any sort of
evidence that the claims made by the manufacturer were wrong.)

Robin

On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 17:33:58 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 06.02.2024 14:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <upr0jc$bsc6$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:36 on Mon, 5 Feb
>> 2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints.
>>
>> Odd how people will give their smartphone provider (almost always
>> outside the reach of GDPR) their fingerprints.
>
>I will give my smartphone itself my fingerprints, but the data from the
>fingerprint scans does not get sent on to the phone provider. (Obviously
>I have to take their word for it, but the feature has been around for
>years as has the claim, and as a high profile phone manufacturer, it is
>likely that lots of people have tried their best to get through the
>security and would have made a loud noise if they found any sort of
>evidence that the claims made by the manufacturer were wrong.)

Yes, I think any company that got found out for secretly keeping user
fingerprints would be absolutely crucified , not just in the media but
by EU privacy laws too.

In message <uptn1m$v9ua$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:33:58 on Tue, 6 Feb
2024, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 06.02.2024 14:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <upr0jc$bsc6$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:36 on Mon, 5 Feb
>>2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints.

>> Odd how people will give their smartphone provider (almost always
>>outside the reach of GDPR) their fingerprints.
>
>I will give my smartphone itself my fingerprints, but the data from the
>fingerprint scans does not get sent on to the phone provider.
>(Obviously I have to take their word for it, but the feature has been
>around for years as has the claim, and as a high profile phone
>manufacturer, it is likely that lots of people have tried their best to
>get through the security and would have made a loud noise if they found
>any sort of evidence that the claims made by the manufacturer were wrong.)

It's very little to do with the hardware manufacturer, rather than the
duopoly of operating system providers.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 16:52:01 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 17:33:58 +0100
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>On 06.02.2024 14:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <upr0jc$bsc6$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:36 on Mon, 5 Feb
>>> 2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints.
>>>
>>> Odd how people will give their smartphone provider (almost always
>>> outside the reach of GDPR) their fingerprints.
>>
>>I will give my smartphone itself my fingerprints, but the data from the
>>fingerprint scans does not get sent on to the phone provider. (Obviously
>>I have to take their word for it, but the feature has been around for
>>years as has the claim, and as a high profile phone manufacturer, it is
>>likely that lots of people have tried their best to get through the
>>security and would have made a loud noise if they found any sort of
>>evidence that the claims made by the manufacturer were wrong.)
>
>Yes, I think any company that got found out for secretly keeping user
>fingerprints would be absolutely crucified , not just in the media but
>by EU privacy laws too.

So your much hated EU on the Fingerprint-To-Enter requirement is now
your best buddy...

On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 15:58:36 -0000 (UTC), Muttley wrote:

> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 15:28:31 GMT Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/02/2024 18:51, JMB99 wrote:
>>>> On 04/02/2024 16:06, Bob wrote:
>>>>>
>>https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/04/eurostar-st-pancrasmay-
cap-ser
>>vices-post-brexit-passport-checks-warns-station-owner
>>>>>
>>>>> With the new EES based border crossing system, there will be
>>>>> insufficient capacity at St Pancras to deal with the number of
>>>>> passengers, so likely the number of Eurostar departures will need to
>>>>> be capped to prevent overcrowding. There will be 24 kiosks to handle
>>>>> entry checks, but modelling suggests there would need to be 50 to
>>>>> cope with numbers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What a surprise, an anti-BREXIT story in the Grauniad!
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This story has been elsewhere as wel.
>>>
>>>
>>What that report fails to make clear is whether this is a temporary
>>situation, while British travellers register for the first time, after
>>which it'll be quicker than now, or permanent. I think it's the former.
>
> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints. I don't see why I
> have to offer them up to the EU. Seems EES is little more than a Me-Too
> trying to outdo the Americans and is completely unnecessary and futile.

Not really. ETIAS/EES is pretty much a necessary pre-requisite for
building a scalable real-time shared database of all entries/exits, which
is a necessary pre-requisite for dropping the use of ink stamps, which is
a necessary pre-requisite for permitting automated gates to be used by all
travellers.

It's much, much easier to architect such a database where the set of
possible passports the database can expect to see in real-time is already
known - i.e. the initial INSERT happens offline, and the real-time part at
the border is just SELECT and UPDATE (simplifying of course, but
terminology that makes sense to most here I suspect.) Indexes can be
built in advance, etc. etc. etc. ETIAS is essentially a way to allow
'batch upload' of new possible passports in advance of any equipment at a
border actually needing to see and verify it in real-time.

(Note that the UK gets around this requirement by not actually validating
entries/exits with its automated gates.)

As for fingerprints - they are very common at border crossings, and indeed
fingerprints have been a supported biometric on chip-enabled passports
since they were introduced; UK citizens have to go through the fingerprint
registration at the border because the UK chose to opt-out of including
that biometric on passport issue, because to do the job of issuing
biometric passports properly would have cost money staffing and equipping
HMPO adequately. All EU Schengen-acquis passports (i.e. all Schengen and
Schengen-candidate countries) should already have the fingerprint
biometric; it's been mandatory since 2009 (although I wouldn't be
surprised if someone can find a country that's been lagging - biometric ID
cards have also been mandatory for an age and there are plenty that
aren't.)

Happily, I was surprised to discover that thanks to my biometric
permanent-residence card (which does of course include fingerprints), it
turns out I'm exempt from ETIAS/EES even while Romania isn't in
Schengen... Although if we are indeed admitted to Schengen at the end of
March I suppose it'll be moot anyway.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 17:33:58 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 06.02.2024 14:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <upr0jc$bsc6$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:36 on Mon, 5 Feb
>>> 2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints.
>>>
>>> Odd how people will give their smartphone provider (almost always
>>> outside the reach of GDPR) their fingerprints.
>>
>> I will give my smartphone itself my fingerprints, but the data from the
>> fingerprint scans does not get sent on to the phone provider. (Obviously
>> I have to take their word for it, but the feature has been around for
>> years as has the claim, and as a high profile phone manufacturer, it is
>> likely that lots of people have tried their best to get through the
>> security and would have made a loud noise if they found any sort of
>> evidence that the claims made by the manufacturer were wrong.)
>
> Yes, I think any company that got found out for secretly keeping user
> fingerprints would be absolutely crucified , not just in the media but
> by EU privacy laws too.

https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/6300638

According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>:
>In message <upr0jc$bsc6$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:36 on Mon, 5 Feb
>2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints.
>
>Odd how people will give their smartphone provider (almost always
>outside the reach of GDPR) their fingerprints.
>
>ps Anyone with a US Driving Licence or Green Card has had to provide
> fingerprints for over 20urs. Then there's "aliens" entering the USA
> on Visa Waiver.

I've had US driving licenses for over 50 years and never provided
fingerprints. They all use photos.

I have a NEXUS card, an expedited border crossing card jointly offered
by the US and Canada. It's a superset of the more familiar US Global
Entry card. They did take my fingerprints, but do not any more. Some
of the old machines in both countries used fingerprints, and the
Canadian ones previously used iris scans, but now it's all photos.

When I flew home to the US last year, at immigration I went through
the Global Entry line, stepped up to a kiosk which took my picture,
which I knew since it showed the picture with a box around my face,
then told me to proceed to the agent, at no point using my physical
card. The agent asked are you John, yup, anything to declare, nope,
and that was it. It was quite efficient but rather creepy. I realize
they only had to match my face against the set of NEXUS/Global people
arriving around the time I did, but still.

This makes me wonder what the actual utility of fingerprints vs.
photos is. If the North Americans don't neeed them, why does Schengen?

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 20:04:19 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:
> This makes me wonder what the actual utility of fingerprints vs. photos
> is. If the North Americans don't need them, why does Schengen?

Fingerprint + face is demonstrably more secure than facial biometric
alone.

All EU residents already have fingerprints on their passports/ID card, as
does the majority of the world's population (India and China both include
fingerprints in their passport biometrics...)

Why *wouldn't* Schengen make use of them, other than to avoid
inconveniencing a few anglos?

On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 18:07:41 -0000 (UTC)
Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 15:58:36 -0000 (UTC), Muttley wrote:
>> Even the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints. I don't see why I
>> have to offer them up to the EU. Seems EES is little more than a Me-Too
>> trying to outdo the Americans and is completely unnecessary and futile.
>
>Not really. ETIAS/EES is pretty much a necessary pre-requisite for
>building a scalable real-time shared database of all entries/exits, which
>is a necessary pre-requisite for dropping the use of ink stamps, which is
>a necessary pre-requisite for permitting automated gates to be used by all
>travellers.

We already have biometric passports that can be scanned so thats not true.
I can only assume the EU doesn't trust foreign issuing authorities - probably
with some justifaction for certain countries - so wants to have its own data
store.

>It's much, much easier to architect such a database where the set of
>possible passports the database can expect to see in real-time is already
>known - i.e. the initial INSERT happens offline, and the real-time part at
>the border is just SELECT and UPDATE (simplifying of course, but
>terminology that makes sense to most here I suspect.) Indexes can be
>built in advance, etc. etc. etc. ETIAS is essentially a way to allow
>'batch upload' of new possible passports in advance of any equipment at a
>border actually needing to see and verify it in real-time.

Relational databases are old hat, didn't you get the memo? Its all key-value
now. Seriously, I suspect a key would be generated from the biometrics which
is then used as a lookup to immediately return all the information on the
person.