I've been raising more complaints with Messrs Govia-Thameslink about ticket machines, particularly at Luton station, repeatedly not working for the collection of pre-paid tickets, and often not working at all. I have finally got a response from someone who might be part of the management team - not really answering my points of course. But he suggest that I should use instead their Key SmartCard or KeyGo. So I've been trying to find out about it, with little success. In fact I'm surprised how little information there is online.

In fact there used to be a Key Smartcard vending machine at Luton, though I never saw anybody using it, and it has now been taken away. So I assumed that this particular smartcard system was defunct. But apparently not. I can see that it might be useful for some holders of season tickets, but is there really any point to the Key Smartcard for anyone else? In fact I have lots of questions to which I can't find answers, but maybe someone here knows.

1. As far as I can see the basic Key Smartcard just allows individual tickets to be loaded, whereas the KeyGo variant allows value to be loaded a bit like an Oyster card - is that right? But I can't work out whether like an Oyster you have to load value in advance and have it depleted after each journey or like a bank contactless card it does not require that, it just charges your bank account the overall fare at the end of the day?

2. The Thameslink description says that though season tickets can be bought online and loaded on the card from ones smartphone using NFC, regular singles or returns, whether anytime or off-peak, cannot be bought online only at station ticket offices or machines. Can that be right?

3. There's also a footnote saying that super-off-peak tickets (the type that I use most frequently) cannot be loaded on these smartcards at all. That seems even more bizarre, is it really true?

4. I see no mention on whether one can get an (outboundary) day travelcard loaded, and if so whether the smartcard is valid on all TfL services (underground, overground, DLR, Elizabeth Line, etc.) They are certainly not shown on the map that can be found if one digs deep enough, i.e.
https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-shared-pdfs-and-documents/key-documents/gtr-1805-ret-keygo-area-map-v27.pdf

5. There's a section in the FAQ about use on buses, but it only covers buses in Brighton, Dorking and similar provincial towns, nothing on London. And on buses you normally only have to touch in not out, so how does it calculate the fare? That's not at all clear.

6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).

At present I can't actually see any circumstance in which either of these smartcards would save time or effort or money over using paper tickets for someone like me making mostly leisure journeys to places in the London area. Or have I missed something?

--
Clive Page

In message <l1isc0FlragU1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:08:47 on Fri, 26
Jan 2024, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>I've been raising more complaints with Messrs Govia-Thameslink about
>ticket machines, particularly at Luton station, repeatedly not working
>for the collection of pre-paid tickets, and often not working at all. I
>have finally got a response from someone who might be part of the
>management team - not really answering my points of course. But he
>suggest that I should use instead their Key SmartCard or KeyGo. So
>I've been trying to find out about it, with little success. In fact
>I'm surprised how little information there is online.

It's not quite as bad as that. I've posted URLs sporadically over
several years.

>In fact there used to be a Key Smartcard vending machine at Luton,
>though I never saw anybody using it, and it has now been taken away. So
>I assumed that this particular smartcard system was defunct. But
>apparently not. I can see that it might be useful for some holders of
>season tickets, but is there really any point to the Key Smartcard for
>anyone else? In fact I have lots of questions to which I can't find
>answers, but maybe someone here knows.

In particular I have pointed out that the branding "The Key" leaves
something to be desired, resulting in Marx brother phraseology such as
"I've got a-The-Key".

Actually I've got several, but the one in question here was first issued
by Southern and got adopted by GTR when they were awarded the wider
franchise to include Thameslink and GN.

>1. As far as I can see the basic Key Smartcard just allows individual
>tickets to be loaded, whereas the KeyGo variant allows value to be
>loaded a bit like an Oyster card - is that right? But I can't work
>out whether like an Oyster you have to load value in advance and have
>it depleted after each journey or like a bank contactless card it does
>not require that, it just charges your bank account the overall fare at
>the end of the day?

Most ITSO cards only allow the loading of season tickets, and are
marketed as in effect more weather proof than paper, and also
replaceable if lost.

However the ITSO concept also allows a "wallet", like an Oyster, and if
used for trips between appropriate end points in effect is just the
same. (Although the unresolved-journey penalty is greater).

>2. The Thameslink description says that though season tickets can be
>bought online and loaded on the card from ones smartphone using NFC,
>regular singles or returns, whether anytime or off-peak, cannot be
>bought online only at station ticket offices or machines. Can that be
>right?

One of my ITSO cards allows online buying of individual walk-up tickets,
which can then be loaded onto the plastic card by the NFC on the phone.

The original idea was that you'd buy tickets online and these would be
loaded onto the card when you touched in at the start of your journey,
being available to open the gate milliseconds later (or if touching in
on a validator at an ungated station allowing you to board the train
with a clear conscience). Many TVMs also have touch-pads to deliver
tickets if that's your preferred point-of-sale.

Trying to keep up with which TOC's ITSO card allows what, is a struggle.
It's all a bit random.

>3. There's also a footnote saying that super-off-peak tickets (the type
>that I use most frequently) cannot be loaded on these smartcards at
>all. That seems even more bizarre, is it really true?

Does seem a bit odd. But I can't think of a revenue-protection mechanism
which would prevent it.

>4. I see no mention on whether one can get an (outboundary) day
>travelcard loaded, and if so whether the smartcard is valid on all TfL
>services (underground, overground, DLR, Elizabeth Line, etc.) They
>are certainly not shown on the map that can be found if one digs deep
>enough, i.e.
>https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-shared-pdfs-an
>d-documents/key-documents/gtr-1805-ret-keygo-area-map-v27.pdf

Aren't Outboundary Travelcards soon to be obsolete, as part of the
Mayor's war on the travelling public?

>5. There's a section in the FAQ about use on buses, but it only covers
>buses in Brighton, Dorking and similar provincial towns, nothing on
>London.

That's a legacy of when it was the Southern-a-Key, and they had a sort
of "Plusbus" arrangement with one of the bus operators in that region.

>And on buses you normally only have to touch in not out, so how does it
>calculate the fare? That's not at all clear.

Plusbus (and this clone) is generally an all-day multi-trip thing, so
you'd just need to touch-in to activate it.

>6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
>that also seems a very odd omission.

DART is a real ticketing oddity. They seem determined to collect a
tourist-tax quite disjoint from the rest of the transport system. Of
course, the shuttle bus back in the day was free of charge.

>Especially as Gatwick is on the map (but that area has pink
>cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).

I expect it does, if you look closer. Could be something to do with
Oyster also being available.

>At present I can't actually see any circumstance in which either of
>these smartcards

It's only one Smartcard, plus an app you can load.

>would save time or effort or money over using paper tickets for someone
>like me making mostly leisure journeys to places in the London area. Or
>have I missed something?

You could be right. The Balkanisation of travel ticketing between
tourist-tax one-off trips, and regular commuters, is if anything
accelerating its death-grip.
--
Roland Perry

In message <NJXDKEYAZMtlFAXo@perry.uk>, at 09:00:48 on Sat, 27 Jan 2024,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>In message <l1isc0FlragU1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:08:47 on Fri, 26
>Jan 2024, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>I've been raising more complaints with Messrs Govia-Thameslink about
>>ticket machines, particularly at Luton station, repeatedly not working
>>for the collection of pre-paid tickets, and often not working at all.
>>I have finally got a response from someone who might be part of the
>>management team - not really answering my points of course. But he
>>suggest that I should use instead their Key SmartCard or KeyGo. So
>>I've been trying to find out about it, with little success. In fact
>>I'm surprised how little information there is online.
>
>It's not quite as bad as that. I've posted URLs sporadically over
>several years.
>
>>In fact there used to be a Key Smartcard vending machine at Luton,
>>though I never saw anybody using it, and it has now been taken away.
>>So I assumed that this particular smartcard system was defunct. But
>>apparently not. I can see that it might be useful for some holders of
>>season tickets, but is there really any point to the Key Smartcard for
>>anyone else? In fact I have lots of questions to which I can't find
>>answers, but maybe someone here knows.
>
>In particular I have pointed out that the branding "The Key" leaves
>something to be desired, resulting in Marx brother phraseology such as
>"I've got a-The-Key".
>
>Actually I've got several,

Most of these, and a few more. Started this web page 12yrs ago, but it's
a couple of years since I last updated it (with the bits in slightly
larger font).

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/itso-code.jpg

>but the one in question here was first issued by Southern and got
>adopted by GTR when they were awarded the wider franchise to include
>Thameslink and GN.
>
>>1. As far as I can see the basic Key Smartcard just allows individual
>>tickets to be loaded, whereas the KeyGo variant allows value to be
>>loaded a bit like an Oyster card - is that right? But I can't work
>>out whether like an Oyster you have to load value in advance and have
>>it depleted after each journey or like a bank contactless card it does
>>not require that, it just charges your bank account the overall fare
>>at the end of the day?
>
>Most ITSO cards only allow the loading of season tickets, and are
>marketed as in effect more weather proof than paper, and also
>replaceable if lost.
>
>However the ITSO concept also allows a "wallet", like an Oyster, and if
>used for trips between appropriate end points in effect is just the
>same. (Although the unresolved-journey penalty is greater).
>
>>2. The Thameslink description says that though season tickets can be
>>bought online and loaded on the card from ones smartphone using NFC,
>>regular singles or returns, whether anytime or off-peak, cannot be
>>bought online only at station ticket offices or machines. Can that be >>right?
>
>One of my ITSO cards allows online buying of individual walk-up
>tickets, which can then be loaded onto the plastic card by the NFC on
>the phone.
>
>The original idea was that you'd buy tickets online and these would be
>loaded onto the card when you touched in at the start of your journey,
>being available to open the gate milliseconds later (or if touching in
>on a validator at an ungated station allowing you to board the train
>with a clear conscience). Many TVMs also have touch-pads to deliver
>tickets if that's your preferred point-of-sale.
>
>Trying to keep up with which TOC's ITSO card allows what, is a
>struggle. It's all a bit random.
>
>>3. There's also a footnote saying that super-off-peak tickets (the
>>type that I use most frequently) cannot be loaded on these smartcards
>>at all. That seems even more bizarre, is it really true?
>
>Does seem a bit odd. But I can't think of a revenue-protection
>mechanism which would prevent it.
>
>>4. I see no mention on whether one can get an (outboundary) day
>>travelcard loaded, and if so whether the smartcard is valid on all TfL
>>services (underground, overground, DLR, Elizabeth Line, etc.) They
>>are certainly not shown on the map that can be found if one digs deep
>>enough, i.e.
>>https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-shared-pdfs-an
>>d-documents/key-documents/gtr-1805-ret-keygo-area-map-v27.pdf
>
>Aren't Outboundary Travelcards soon to be obsolete, as part of the
>Mayor's war on the travelling public?
>
>>5. There's a section in the FAQ about use on buses, but it only covers
>>buses in Brighton, Dorking and similar provincial towns, nothing on
>>London.
>
>That's a legacy of when it was the Southern-a-Key, and they had a sort
>of "Plusbus" arrangement with one of the bus operators in that region.
>
>>And on buses you normally only have to touch in not out, so how does
>>it calculate the fare? That's not at all clear.
>
>Plusbus (and this clone) is generally an all-day multi-trip thing, so
>you'd just need to touch-in to activate it.
>
>>6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>>gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards,
>>so that also seems a very odd omission.
>
>DART is a real ticketing oddity. They seem determined to collect a
>tourist-tax quite disjoint from the rest of the transport system. Of
>course, the shuttle bus back in the day was free of charge.
>
>>Especially as Gatwick is on the map (but that area has pink
>>cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).
>
>I expect it does, if you look closer. Could be something to do with
>Oyster also being available.
>
>>At present I can't actually see any circumstance in which either of
>>these smartcards
>
>It's only one Smartcard, plus an app you can load.
>
>>would save time or effort or money over using paper tickets for
>>someone like me making mostly leisure journeys to places in the London
>>area. Or have I missed something?
>
>You could be right. The Balkanisation of travel ticketing between
>tourist-tax one-off trips, and regular commuters, is if anything
>accelerating its death-grip.

--
Roland Perry

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>
> 6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
> gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
> that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map
> (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).

I think it may be that Gatwick is a curious (literal) edge case. You can
use contactless on any service to London, but Oyster is only usable on
GatEx, with a high fare.

If you have a Z1-6 Travelcard, you only need buy a ticket to East Croydon,
then use SN or TL services.

On 27/01/2024 09:00, Roland Perry wrote:
> Aren't Outboundary Travelcards soon to be obsolete, as part of the
> Mayor's war on the travelling public?

The mayor does what he's forced to do by HMG. So it's the HMG war on
the travelling public.

In message <up3225$3d9fj$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:20 on Sat, 27 Jan
2024, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:

>On 27/01/2024 09:00, Roland Perry wrote:

>> Aren't Outboundary Travelcards soon to be obsolete, as part of the
>>Mayor's war on the travelling public?
>
>The mayor does what he's forced to do by HMG. So it's the HMG war on
>the travelling public.

HMG sets the strategy (viz: collect more money) but the Mayor determines
the tactics (viz: who from, this week).
--
Roland Perry

In message <Uv5tN.356660$p%Mb.353663@fx15.iad>, at 11:09:40 on Sat, 27
Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>
>> 6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>> gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
>> that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map
>> (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).
>
>I think it may be that Gatwick is a curious (literal) edge case. You can
>use contactless on any service to London, but Oyster is only usable on
>GatEx, with a high fare.

Couldn't you be resigned to paying this alleged higher fare and use any
service?

>If you have a Z1-6 Travelcard, you only need buy a ticket to East Croydon,
>then use SN or TL services.

Exiting and re-entering the barriers?
--
Roland Perry

On 27/01/2024 09:00, Roland Perry wrote:
> It's not quite as bad as that. I've posted URLs sporadically over several years.

Yes, was vaguely aware of them, but I didn't keep the URLs, I'm afraid, as they didn't seem relevant to the casual traveller (and actually they still don't).

> Most ITSO cards only allow the loading of season tickets, and are marketed as in effect more weather proof than paper, and also replaceable if lost.

That's a good reason to use one - when I used to get an annual season ticket on the usual ticket stock it looked decidedly dog-eared after 12 months and I had sometimes to get a replacement during the year.

> Aren't Outboundary Travelcards soon to be obsolete, as part of the Mayor's war on the travelling public?

News may be slow getting to northern Cambridgeshire: they have been given a reprieve, but in return for a small fare increase relative to regular returns. But TfL are also increasing the various daily fare caps, and I haven't yet spent the few hours needed to compare travelcard fares with Oyster caps in all combinations of zones that I'm likely to use, peak and off-peak, to see which is more cost-effective under what circumstances.

>> 5. There's a section in the FAQ about use on buses, but it only covers buses in Brighton, Dorking and similar provincial towns, nothing on London.
>
> That's a legacy of when it was the Southern-a-Key, and they had a sort of "Plusbus" arrangement with one of the bus operators in that region.

Ah, that explains it. Thanks. That still doesn't tell me whether they are actually valid on London buses, but as a wrinkly-pass holder that's not an important question for me.

> DART is a real ticketing oddity. They seem determined to collect a tourist-tax quitedisjoint from the rest of the transport system. Of course, the shuttle bus back in the day was free of charge.

Only yesterday I was asked by a fellow passenger at Luton Airport Parkway how to get "the shuttle to the airport" - he thought it was still a bus. So I enlightened him about the new mountain railway and pointed him in the right direction. But it turned out that he hadn't bought a through ticket and I see that they have now removed all the ticket purchase machines at the Parkway DART station before the gateline, so I've absolutely no idea how one now buys a ticket on it if you arrive there without getting one in advance. There must be quite a lot who arrive in a similar position. I wondered about following him to see what they told him to do, but there was a car waiting for me in the car park so didn't have time to do that.

> The Balkanisation of travel ticketing between tourist-tax one-off trips, and regular commuters, is if anything accelerating its death-grip.

You may very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

--
Clive Page

On 27/01/2024 11:09, Recliner wrote:
> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>
>> 6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>> gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
>> that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map
>> (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).
>
> I think it may be that Gatwick is a curious (literal) edge case. You can
> use contactless on any service to London, but Oyster is only usable on
> GatEx, with a high fare.
>
> If you have a Z1-6 Travelcard, you only need buy a ticket to East Croydon,
> then use SN or TL services.

Are you sure about that? I thought that an Oyster card could be used at Gatwick to get on any train into London, specifically including Thameslink, but of course only as far north as Elstree. Beyond that contactless is valid to Luton Airport Parkway (but perhaps not on to the DART as well?).

--
Clive Page

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <up3225$3d9fj$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:20 on Sat, 27 Jan
> 2024, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>
>> On 27/01/2024 09:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>>> Aren't Outboundary Travelcards soon to be obsolete, as part of the
>>> Mayor's war on the travelling public?
>>
>> The mayor does what he's forced to do by HMG. So it's the HMG war on
>> the travelling public.
>
> HMG sets the strategy (viz: collect more money) but the Mayor determines
> the tactics (viz: who from, this week).

And the one-day Travelcards are not being abolished.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <Uv5tN.356660$p%Mb.353663@fx15.iad>, at 11:09:40 on Sat, 27
> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>
>>> 6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>>> gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
>>> that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map
>>> (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).
>>
>> I think it may be that Gatwick is a curious (literal) edge case. You can
>> use contactless on any service to London, but Oyster is only usable on
>> GatEx, with a high fare.
>
> Couldn't you be resigned to paying this alleged higher fare and use any
> service?
>
>> If you have a Z1-6 Travelcard, you only need buy a ticket to East Croydon,
>> then use SN or TL services.
>
> Exiting and re-entering the barriers?

No need.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <Uv5tN.356660$p%Mb.353663@fx15.iad>, at 11:09:40 on Sat, 27
> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>
>>> 6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>>> gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
>>> that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map
>>> (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).
>>
>> I think it may be that Gatwick is a curious (literal) edge case. You can
>> use contactless on any service to London, but Oyster is only usable on
>> GatEx, with a high fare.
>
> Couldn't you be resigned to paying this alleged higher fare and use any
> service?

No, that would like trying to use Oyster to Stansted. It's not a legal way
of paying the fare, so you'd be penalised.

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 27/01/2024 11:09, Recliner wrote:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>
>>> 6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>>> gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
>>> that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map
>>> (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).
>>
>> I think it may be that Gatwick is a curious (literal) edge case. You can
>> use contactless on any service to London, but Oyster is only usable on
>> GatEx, with a high fare.
>>
>> If you have a Z1-6 Travelcard, you only need buy a ticket to East Croydon,
>> then use SN or TL services.
>
> Are you sure about that? I thought that an Oyster card could be used at
> Gatwick to get on any train into London, specifically including
> Thameslink, but of course only as far north as Elstree.

No, Gatwick is outside the Oyster zones, but contactless is OK. Reading and
Luton are similar.

> Beyond that contactless is valid to Luton Airport Parkway (but perhaps
> not on to the DART as well?).

Contactless has a much larger valid area than Oyster, which has run out of
zones.

You need a ticket for the DART. It can be bought at the TVMs, bundled with
a rail ticket, or in advance. Bus pass holders can register for free DART
tickets, but you must do so in advance. You can't just show up with a bus
pass and use it at the DART barriers.

DART TVM screen:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52853146539/in/album-72177720307849740/

On 27/01/2024 09:00, Roland Perry wrote:

> Aren't Outboundary Travelcards soon to be obsolete, as part of the
> Mayor's war on the travelling public?

No. The government realised a non-London old person tax would hurt its
voters more than anyone else.

--
Arthur Figgis

In message <l1kk21F2pgrU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:59:13 on Sat, 27
Jan 2024, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 27/01/2024 09:00, Roland Perry wrote:

>> It's not quite as bad as that. I've posted URLs sporadically over
>>several years.
>
>Yes, was vaguely aware of them, but I didn't keep the URLs, I'm afraid,

If only someone had invented search engines.

>as they didn't seem relevant to the casual traveller (and actually they
>still don't).

They do, most of what I posted yesterday is extracts from them.

>> Most ITSO cards only allow the loading of season tickets, and are
>>marketed as in effect more weather proof than paper, and also
>>replaceable if lost.
>
>That's a good reason to use one - when I used to get an annual season
>ticket on the usual ticket stock it looked decidedly dog-eared after 12
>months and I had sometimes to get a replacement during the year.
>
>> Aren't Outboundary Travelcards soon to be obsolete, as part of the
>>Mayor's war on the travelling public?
>
>News may be slow getting to northern Cambridgeshire:

I'm in East Cambridgeshire

>they have been given a reprieve, but in return

I see what you did there

>for a small fare increase relative to regular returns. But TfL are
>also increasing the various daily fare caps, and I haven't yet spent
>the few hours needed to compare travelcard fares with Oyster caps in
>all combinations of zones that I'm likely to use, peak and off-peak, to
>see which is more cost-effective under what circumstances.

Hurrah for confusion pricing. The more confusing they make it, the more
money they get.

>>> 5. There's a section in the FAQ about use on buses, but it only
>>>covers buses in Brighton, Dorking and similar provincial towns,
>>>nothing on London.

>> That's a legacy of when it was the Southern-a-Key, and they had a
>>sort of "Plusbus" arrangement with one of the bus operators in that
>>region.
>
>Ah, that explains it. Thanks. That still doesn't tell me whether they
>are actually valid on London buses, but as a wrinkly-pass holder that's
>not an important question for me.

If you look for the resources you say are irrelevant, or other posts of
mine yesterday, you simply have to ask how likely it is Brighton-based
companies operate buses in London.

>> DART is a real ticketing oddity. They seem determined to collect a
>>tourist-tax quitedisjoint from the rest of the transport system. Of
>>course, the shuttle bus back in the day was free of charge.
>
>Only yesterday I was asked by a fellow passenger at Luton Airport
>Parkway how to get "the shuttle to the airport" - he thought it was
>still a bus. So I enlightened him about the new mountain railway and
>pointed him in the right direction. But it turned out that he hadn't
>bought a through ticket and I see that they have now removed all the
>ticket purchase machines at the Parkway DART station before the
>gateline, so I've absolutely no idea how one now buys a ticket on it if
>you arrive there without getting one in advance. There must be quite a
>lot who arrive in a similar position. I wondered about following him
>to see what they told him to do, but there was a car waiting for me in
>the car park so didn't have time to do that.
>
>> The Balkanisation of travel ticketing between tourist-tax one-off
>>trips, and regular commuters, is if anything accelerating its
>>death-grip.
>
>You may very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.
>

--
Roland Perry

In message <9QdtN.131212$q3F7.48499@fx45.iad>, at 20:37:25 on Sat, 27
Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <Uv5tN.356660$p%Mb.353663@fx15.iad>, at 11:09:40 on Sat, 27
>> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>>>> gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
>>>> that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map
>>>> (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).
>>>
>>> I think it may be that Gatwick is a curious (literal) edge case. You can
>>> use contactless on any service to London, but Oyster is only usable on
>>> GatEx, with a high fare.
>>
>> Couldn't you be resigned to paying this alleged higher fare and use any
>> service?
>>
>>> If you have a Z1-6 Travelcard, you only need buy a ticket to East Croydon,
>>> then use SN or TL services.
>>
>> Exiting and re-entering the barriers?
>
>No need.

They have TVMs on the platforms now?
--
Roland Perry

In message <aQdtN.131213$q3F7.67026@fx45.iad>, at 20:37:26 on Sat, 27
Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <Uv5tN.356660$p%Mb.353663@fx15.iad>, at 11:09:40 on Sat, 27
>> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>>>> gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
>>>> that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map
>>>> (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).
>>>
>>> I think it may be that Gatwick is a curious (literal) edge case. You can
>>> use contactless on any service to London, but Oyster is only usable on
>>> GatEx, with a high fare.
>>
>> Couldn't you be resigned to paying this alleged higher fare and use any
>> service?
>
>No, that would like trying to use Oyster to Stansted.

Stansted doesn't have Oyster pads, but for example City Thameslink does.

>It's not a legal way of paying the fare, so you'd be penalised.

Opinion seems to vary on this, so please provide a useful cite, not
aphorisms.
--
Roland Perry

In message <8QdtN.131211$q3F7.11465@fx45.iad>, at 20:37:24 on Sat, 27
Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <up3225$3d9fj$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:20 on Sat, 27 Jan
>> 2024, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> On 27/01/2024 09:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>>> Aren't Outboundary Travelcards soon to be obsolete, as part of the
>>>> Mayor's war on the travelling public?
>>>
>>> The mayor does what he's forced to do by HMG. So it's the HMG war on
>>> the travelling public.
>>
>> HMG sets the strategy (viz: collect more money) but the Mayor determines
>> the tactics (viz: who from, this week).
>
>And the one-day Travelcards are not being abolished.

Not one-day travelcards, *OUTBOUNDARY* Travelcards.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <aQdtN.131213$q3F7.67026@fx45.iad>, at 20:37:26 on Sat, 27
> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <Uv5tN.356660$p%Mb.353663@fx15.iad>, at 11:09:40 on Sat, 27
>>> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>>>>> gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
>>>>> that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map
>>>>> (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).
>>>>
>>>> I think it may be that Gatwick is a curious (literal) edge case. You can
>>>> use contactless on any service to London, but Oyster is only usable on
>>>> GatEx, with a high fare.
>>>
>>> Couldn't you be resigned to paying this alleged higher fare and use any
>>> service?
>>
>> No, that would like trying to use Oyster to Stansted.
>
> Stansted doesn't have Oyster pads, but for example City Thameslink does.

City Thameslink is within the Oyster zones.

>
>> It's not a legal way of paying the fare, so you'd be penalised.
>
> Opinion seems to vary on this, so please provide a useful cite, not
> aphorisms.

It's fact, not opinion, that Gatwick is outside the Oyster zones, just like
Luton and Reading. So why would you expect Oyster to work in one of those,
but not the other two?

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/7wGQdIQpJhexRBkxz1qLK4/e43cd0a5440959f31b4aada32aa17d0c/London_Rail_Tube_Map_May_2023.pdf

As the map says, Gatwick is outside the fare zones, so Oyster is not valid.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <8QdtN.131211$q3F7.11465@fx45.iad>, at 20:37:24 on Sat, 27
> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <up3225$3d9fj$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:20 on Sat, 27 Jan
>>> 2024, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> On 27/01/2024 09:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Aren't Outboundary Travelcards soon to be obsolete, as part of the
>>>>> Mayor's war on the travelling public?
>>>>
>>>> The mayor does what he's forced to do by HMG. So it's the HMG war on
>>>> the travelling public.
>>>
>>> HMG sets the strategy (viz: collect more money) but the Mayor determines
>>> the tactics (viz: who from, this week).
>>
>> And the one-day Travelcards are not being abolished.
>
> Not one-day travelcards, *OUTBOUNDARY* Travelcards.

All one-day Travelcards were due to go, but the decision was reversed.
Basically, the DfT found enough extra money for TfL to reprieve them.

https://bettertransport.org.uk/blog/campaign-success-we-helped-save-londons-travelcard/

On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 08:10:35 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <8QdtN.131211$q3F7.11465@fx45.iad>, at 20:37:24 on Sat, 27
>Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <up3225$3d9fj$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:20 on Sat, 27 Jan
>>> 2024, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> On 27/01/2024 09:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Aren't Outboundary Travelcards soon to be obsolete, as part of the
>>>>> Mayor's war on the travelling public?
>>>>
>>>> The mayor does what he's forced to do by HMG. So it's the HMG war on
>>>> the travelling public.
>>>
>>> HMG sets the strategy (viz: collect more money) but the Mayor determines
>>> the tactics (viz: who from, this week).
>>
>>And the one-day Travelcards are not being abolished.
>
>Not one-day travelcards, *OUTBOUNDARY* Travelcards.

What's *OUTBOUNDARY*? Do you mean an ODTC from, say, Ely? Then so far
as I can see they're NOT now being abolished, they're just going up in
March by an additional 3%.

On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 08:35:33 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <aQdtN.131213$q3F7.67026@fx45.iad>, at 20:37:26 on Sat, 27
>> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <Uv5tN.356660$p%Mb.353663@fx15.iad>, at 11:09:40 on Sat, 27
>>>> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>>>>>> gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
>>>>>> that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map
>>>>>> (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it may be that Gatwick is a curious (literal) edge case. You can
>>>>> use contactless on any service to London, but Oyster is only usable on
>>>>> GatEx, with a high fare.
>>>>
>>>> Couldn't you be resigned to paying this alleged higher fare and use any
>>>> service?
>>>
>>> No, that would like trying to use Oyster to Stansted.
>>
>> Stansted doesn't have Oyster pads, but for example City Thameslink does.
>
>City Thameslink is within the Oyster zones.
>
>>
>>> It's not a legal way of paying the fare, so you'd be penalised.
>>
>> Opinion seems to vary on this, so please provide a useful cite, not
>> aphorisms.
>
>It's fact, not opinion, that Gatwick is outside the Oyster zones, just like
>Luton and Reading. So why would you expect Oyster to work in one of those,
>but not the other two?
>
>https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/7wGQdIQpJhexRBkxz1qLK4/e43cd0a5440959f31b4aada32aa17d0c/London_Rail_Tube_Map_May_2023.pdf
>
>As the map says, Gatwick is outside the fare zones, so Oyster is not valid.
>
As the map says, Watford Junction is outside the fare zones. Oyster is
valid.
and:-
"You can pay for your Gatwick Express travel with an Oyster card or a
contactless card....."
https://www.gatwickexpress.com/tickets/buy-tickets/oyster-and-contactless

On 28/01/2024 07:39, Roland Perry wrote:
> If only someone had invented search engines.

If only someone had invented search engines where the results weren't polluted by paid-for advertising, like Google used to be 15 years ago.

--
Clive Page

On 27/01/2024 20:54, Recliner wrote:
> You need a ticket for the DART. It can be bought at the TVMs, bundled with
> a rail ticket, or in advance. Bus pass holders can register for free DART
> tickets, but you must do so in advance. You can't just show up with a bus
> pass and use it at the DART barriers.
>
> DART TVM screen:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52853146539/in/album-72177720307849740/

When I want there last week I couldn't find any ticket vending machines - I think they've taken them all away.

--
Clive Page

In message <plotN.55135$5Hnd.5045@fx03.iad>, at 08:35:33 on Sun, 28 Jan
2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <aQdtN.131213$q3F7.67026@fx45.iad>, at 20:37:26 on Sat, 27
>> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <Uv5tN.356660$p%Mb.353663@fx15.iad>, at 11:09:40 on Sat, 27
>>>> Jan 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6. The map specifically does not include the DART to Luton Airport. I
>>>>>> gather that this now does allow travel using contactless bank cards, so
>>>>>> that also seems a very odd omission. Especially as Gatwick is on the map
>>>>>> (but that area has pink cross-hatching, which isn't explained anywhere).
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it may be that Gatwick is a curious (literal) edge case. You can
>>>>> use contactless on any service to London, but Oyster is only usable on
>>>>> GatEx, with a high fare.
>>>>
>>>> Couldn't you be resigned to paying this alleged higher fare and use any
>>>> service?
>>>
>>> No, that would like trying to use Oyster to Stansted.
>>
>> Stansted doesn't have Oyster pads, but for example City Thameslink does.
>
>City Thameslink is within the Oyster zones.

Another aphorism. Gets us no closer to understanding if you think
Gatwick-City_Thameslink is allowed on Oyster. And if not, why.

Last time I looked, City Thameslink wasn't served by Gatwick Express
(which is why I chose it, the name "Thameslink" being a clue).

>>> It's not a legal way of paying the fare, so you'd be penalised.
>>
>> Opinion seems to vary on this, so please provide a useful cite, not
>> aphorisms.
>
>It's fact, not opinion, that Gatwick is outside the Oyster zones, just like
>Luton and Reading. So why would you expect Oyster to work in one of those,
>but not the other two?
>
>https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/7wGQdIQpJhexRBkxz1qLK4/e4
>3cd0a5440959f31b4aada32aa17d0c/London_Rail_Tube_Map_May_2023.pdf
>
>As the map says, Gatwick is outside the fare zones, so Oyster is not valid.

And yet you have claimed Oyster is valid on Gatwick Express.

Please please, please please, explain this conundrum.
--
Roland Perry