On 24/01/2024 18:22, Bob wrote:
> On 23.01.2024 13:54, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 20.01.2024 11:23, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <uof131$3bmdi$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:37:05 on Fri, 19 Jan
>>>>>> 2024, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A central training programme for train drivers would increase
>>>>>>>> the supply.
>>>>>>>> That would reduce wages in the long term. But that would require
>>>>>>>> a long
>>>>>>>> term approach.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's all very well until the entire population of Penzance
>>>>>>> decide to
>>>>>>> apply for the training scheme expecting a job at the end of it,
>>>>>>> only to
>>>>>>> find out that there are unlikely to be any vacancies there for
>>>>>>> the next 15
>>>>>>> years and the nearest vacancies are in Bristol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In which case, as a lifestyle choice they should move house to
>>>>>> somewhere
>>>>>> a bit closer to Bristol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did once have an engineer whose day-job was in Docklands, but
>>>>>> lived in
>>>>>> Wolverhampton. There comes a point when rather than fire them for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> self-imposed ludicrous work/life balance, they should up sticks
>>>>>> and live
>>>>>> a little bit closer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AIUI one of the employment contract conditions for TfL train
>>>>>> drivers is
>>>>>> living within 1hr from (fsvo) London.
>>>>>
>>>>> A central training programme doesn’t have to be geographically
>>>>> centralised.
>>>>> It’s entirely possible to have regional centres.
>>>>>
>>>>> There’s an interesting comparison of European train driver salaries
>>>>> here
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022/12/23/train-strikes-these-are-the-countries-that-pay-train-drivers-the-most-and-the-least-in-eur
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That table has been widely discredited. For one thing, Malta and Cyprus
>>>> don't have any railways, yet they’re there in the table. Secondly, I
>>>> work
>>>> for one of the higher-paid TOCs in the UK, and without overtime my
>>>> take-home pay is about half what that table says. Given that, why
>>>> should I
>>>> believe anything else written in that article?
>>>
>>> Generally making international comparissons on the basis of "take home
>>> pay" can produce misleading data. You need to look at what effectively
>>> non-negotiable costs count as payroll deductions as opposed to things
>>> people pay "out of pocket". Small examples might be something like a TV
>>> licence, that in some countries comes out of general taxation, but in
>>> other countries has a separate mechanism. More significantly, the NHS is
>>> payed for via general taxation, but many European countries operae an
>>> insurance based system, so healthcare costs will make the numbers look
>>> different.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It would also be useful to have some form of cost of living index - 1000
>> £/€/CFH goes a lot further in Poland than in Switzerland, for example!
>
> Indeed, there are a number of purchasing power indices that can be used
> to attempt to capture this difference, one of the more famous being the
> "big mac" index, that takes the standard, widely available product the
> "big mac" and treats it as a standard unit of value for basic consumer
> spending.
>

Used to be the Mars Bar

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 23.01.2024 13:54, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 20.01.2024 11:23, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <uof131$3bmdi$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:37:05 on Fri, 19 Jan
>>>>>> 2024, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A central training programme for train drivers would increase the supply.
>>>>>>>> That would reduce wages in the long term. But that would require a long
>>>>>>>> term approach.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's all very well until the entire population of Penzance decide to
>>>>>>> apply for the training scheme expecting a job at the end of it, only to
>>>>>>> find out that there are unlikely to be any vacancies there for the next 15
>>>>>>> years and the nearest vacancies are in Bristol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In which case, as a lifestyle choice they should move house to somewhere
>>>>>> a bit closer to Bristol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did once have an engineer whose day-job was in Docklands, but lived in
>>>>>> Wolverhampton. There comes a point when rather than fire them for their
>>>>>> self-imposed ludicrous work/life balance, they should up sticks and live
>>>>>> a little bit closer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AIUI one of the employment contract conditions for TfL train drivers is
>>>>>> living within 1hr from (fsvo) London.
>>>>>
>>>>> A central training programme doesn’t have to be geographically centralised.
>>>>> It’s entirely possible to have regional centres.
>>>>>
>>>>> There’s an interesting comparison of European train driver salaries here
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022/12/23/train-strikes-these-are-the-countries-that-pay-train-drivers-the-most-and-the-least-in-eur
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That table has been widely discredited. For one thing, Malta and Cyprus
>>>> don't have any railways, yet they’re there in the table. Secondly, I work
>>>> for one of the higher-paid TOCs in the UK, and without overtime my
>>>> take-home pay is about half what that table says. Given that, why should I
>>>> believe anything else written in that article?
>>>
>>> Generally making international comparissons on the basis of "take home
>>> pay" can produce misleading data. You need to look at what effectively
>>> non-negotiable costs count as payroll deductions as opposed to things
>>> people pay "out of pocket". Small examples might be something like a TV
>>> licence, that in some countries comes out of general taxation, but in
>>> other countries has a separate mechanism. More significantly, the NHS is
>>> payed for via general taxation, but many European countries operae an
>>> insurance based system, so healthcare costs will make the numbers look
>>> different.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It would also be useful to have some form of cost of living index - 1000
>> £/€/CFH goes a lot further in Poland than in Switzerland, for example!
>
> Indeed, there are a number of purchasing power indices that can be used
> to attempt to capture this difference, one of the more famous being the
> "big mac" index, that takes the standard, widely available product the
> "big mac" and treats it as a standard unit of value for basic consumer
> spending.

The Big Mac index was devised and is used by the Economist to estimate true
currency exchange rates. It shows by how much currencies are over- or
under-valued against the USD. It has nothing to do with basic consumer
spending.

https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index

On Wed, 24 Jan 2024 21:42:43 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 23.01.2024 13:54, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

<severely whatevered>
>>> It would also be useful to have some form of cost of living index - 1000
>>> £/€/CFH goes a lot further in Poland than in Switzerland, for example!
>>
>> Indeed, there are a number of purchasing power indices that can be used
>> to attempt to capture this difference, one of the more famous being the
>> "big mac" index, that takes the standard, widely available product the
>> "big mac" and treats it as a standard unit of value for basic consumer
>> spending.
>
>The Big Mac index was devised and is used by the Economist to estimate true
>currency exchange rates. It shows by how much currencies are over- or
>under-valued against the USD. It has nothing to do with basic consumer
>spending.
>
>https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index

I appreciate this McIndex (prolly Ronnie has that ™ed) is
semi-funny... but how is the *base* value in each national
jurisdiction decided?

I find it difficult to believe that a Big Mac is sold for 'zactly the
same price in all locales of the Excited States, even after somehow
allowing for tax variations, e.g. Oregon has no retail sales tax.

Oh!

<https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/why-mcdonalds-prices-vary-drastically-depending-on-the-location/ar-AA1kVZyA>

On 25/01/2024 00:58, Nobody wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2024 21:42:43 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 23.01.2024 13:54, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>
> <severely whatevered>
>
>>>> It would also be useful to have some form of cost of living index - 1000
>>>> £/€/CFH goes a lot further in Poland than in Switzerland, for example!
>>>
>>> Indeed, there are a number of purchasing power indices that can be used
>>> to attempt to capture this difference, one of the more famous being the
>>> "big mac" index, that takes the standard, widely available product the
>>> "big mac" and treats it as a standard unit of value for basic consumer
>>> spending.
>>
>> The Big Mac index was devised and is used by the Economist to estimate true
>> currency exchange rates. It shows by how much currencies are over- or
>> under-valued against the USD. It has nothing to do with basic consumer
>> spending.
>>
>> https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index
>
> I appreciate this McIndex (prolly Ronnie has that ™ed) is
> semi-funny... but how is the *base* value in each national
> jurisdiction decided?
>
> I find it difficult to believe that a Big Mac is sold for 'zactly the
> same price in all locales of the Excited States, even after somehow
> allowing for tax variations, e.g. Oregon has no retail sales tax.
>
> Oh!
>
> <https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/why-mcdonalds-prices-vary-drastically-depending-on-the-location/ar-AA1kVZyA>

I expect it varies within other countries too, and they take an average.
They'd also have to add an average sales tax in the US, where companies
portray it as a customer liability rather than a cost of doing business.

On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:24:40 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:

>On 25/01/2024 00:58, Nobody wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2024 21:42:43 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 23.01.2024 13:54, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>
>> <severely whatevered>
>>
>>>>> It would also be useful to have some form of cost of living index - 1000
>>>>> £/€/CFH goes a lot further in Poland than in Switzerland, for example!
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, there are a number of purchasing power indices that can be used
>>>> to attempt to capture this difference, one of the more famous being the
>>>> "big mac" index, that takes the standard, widely available product the
>>>> "big mac" and treats it as a standard unit of value for basic consumer
>>>> spending.
>>>
>>> The Big Mac index was devised and is used by the Economist to estimate true
>>> currency exchange rates. It shows by how much currencies are over- or
>>> under-valued against the USD. It has nothing to do with basic consumer
>>> spending.
>>>
>>> https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index
>>
>> I appreciate this McIndex (prolly Ronnie has that ™ed) is
>> semi-funny... but how is the *base* value in each national
>> jurisdiction decided?
>>
>> I find it difficult to believe that a Big Mac is sold for 'zactly the
>> same price in all locales of the Excited States, even after somehow
>> allowing for tax variations, e.g. Oregon has no retail sales tax.
>>
>> Oh!
>>
>> <https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/why-mcdonalds-prices-vary-drastically-depending-on-the-location/ar-AA1kVZyA>
>
>I expect it varies within other countries too, and they take an average.
>They'd also have to add an average sales tax in the US, where companies
>portray it as a customer liability rather than a cost of doing business.

See https://github.com/TheEconomist/big-mac-data

"In July 2022 we updated the Big Mac index to use a McDonalds-provided price for the United States (previously, we
averaged the price from four major US cities). We also changed how we calculate the GDP-adjusted index. Instead of using
the IMF's calculation of purchasing-power parity, we adjust the GDP per person by the difference in each country's Big
Mac prices. The full history of the GDP-adjusted series will now be updated whenever the IMF’s historical GDP series are
updated, which means the GDP series for a given year may change slightly over time as the IMF refines its measurements."

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:24:40 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>
>> On 25/01/2024 00:58, Nobody wrote:
>>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2024 21:42:43 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 23.01.2024 13:54, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>
>>> <severely whatevered>
>>>
>>>>>> It would also be useful to have some form of cost of living index - 1000
>>>>>> £/€/CFH goes a lot further in Poland than in Switzerland, for example!
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed, there are a number of purchasing power indices that can be used
>>>>> to attempt to capture this difference, one of the more famous being the
>>>>> "big mac" index, that takes the standard, widely available product the
>>>>> "big mac" and treats it as a standard unit of value for basic consumer
>>>>> spending.
>>>>
>>>> The Big Mac index was devised and is used by the Economist to estimate true
>>>> currency exchange rates. It shows by how much currencies are over- or
>>>> under-valued against the USD. It has nothing to do with basic consumer
>>>> spending.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index
>>>
>>> I appreciate this McIndex (prolly Ronnie has that ™ed) is
>>> semi-funny... but how is the *base* value in each national
>>> jurisdiction decided?
>>>
>>> I find it difficult to believe that a Big Mac is sold for 'zactly the
>>> same price in all locales of the Excited States, even after somehow
>>> allowing for tax variations, e.g. Oregon has no retail sales tax.
>>>
>>> Oh!
>>>
>>> <https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/why-mcdonalds-prices-vary-drastically-depending-on-the-location/ar-AA1kVZyA>
>>
>> I expect it varies within other countries too, and they take an average.
>> They'd also have to add an average sales tax in the US, where companies
>> portray it as a customer liability rather than a cost of doing business.
>
> See https://github.com/TheEconomist/big-mac-data
>
> "In July 2022 we updated the Big Mac index to use a McDonalds-provided
> price for the United States (previously, we
> averaged the price from four major US cities). We also changed how we
> calculate the GDP-adjusted index. Instead of using
> the IMF's calculation of purchasing-power parity, we adjust the GDP per
> person by the difference in each country's Big
> Mac prices. The full history of the GDP-adjusted series will now be
> updated whenever the IMF’s historical GDP series are
> updated, which means the GDP series for a given year may change slightly
> over time as the IMF refines its measurements."
>

Regardless of the fine detail, I do find MacDonalds is a reasonable proxy
for how expensive a country is. Both Norway and Switzerland have expensive
McDs and Poland is quite cheap.

In message <ZoSrN.11744$x4Zc.6726@fx10.ams1>, at 17:09:13 on Tue, 23 Jan
2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>Train drivers also require fewer academic qualifications than
>lower-paid nurses, army officers and secondary school teachers.

Not least because while do they need training, it's not a compulsory
three year degree course (which is what nurses need - I'm out of
touch with teachers, but last time I looked that was either three
year degree, or a one year PGCE on top of a three year degree in
their specialisation.

Although most nurses are band five or six, some aspire to be band
seven which is roughly equivalent to what are known as 'junior'
doctors, including the right to prescribe medicines.

Then there's a whole lot of medicines which only a consultant can
prescribe (too dangerous and/or expensive) that for example GPs can't.
--
Roland Perry