Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uo5duv$1bng3$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:28 on Tue, 16 Jan
>> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>
>> And also in the suburbs. There's a road in Cambridge with a school
>> halfway along it, which I think most people would agree is a suitable
>> place for a reduced speed, but they have now incorporated the *entire*
>> road into a 20mph zone.
>
> If that's Netherhall, at chucking out time there are a lot of kids on the
> pavement, milling about, cycling in the road, etc, which extends a long way
> past the school gates.
>
> I don't think there's an option to put in a part time speed limit, so you
> are still affected by the 20mph at 3am when there are no kids hanging about.

There isn’t an option to have a part time 20 mph when lights are flashing?
They’re fairly popular in Scotland and there were a number in Edinburgh
before the blanket-ish 20 mph was introduced.

Sam

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JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 15/01/2024 18:21, Coffee wrote:
>> Now that people have got used to the 20 mph limit and seen its benefits
>> the opposition has collapsed.
>>
>> The remaining opposition around here seems to be those who drive 400
>> yards to Stresco for their morning paper.
>>
>> Cyclists who, ironically, don't like cars getting in their way.
>>
>> Conservative political activists who think their opposition is a vote
>> winner.
>
>
>
> Not sure that is the case, people are used to town centres having low
> limits when the average speed would probably not be any higher anyway.
> But there is a tendency to want lower limits to be extended to roads
> between the towns.
>
> I would like to see some proper figures on the effect of these lower
> limit, they obviously increase pollution because vehicles run more
> efficiently at higher speeds. But when it first became fashionable some
> years ago, there was an increase in accidents in areas with 20 mph limits.

Was there an increase in KSI (killed or seriously injured) accidents, or
just in less serious ones/

Sam

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On 16/01/2024 18:18, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uo5duv$1bng3$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:28 on Tue, 16 Jan
>>> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>>
>>> And also in the suburbs. There's a road in Cambridge with a school
>>> halfway along it, which I think most people would agree is a suitable
>>> place for a reduced speed, but they have now incorporated the *entire*
>>> road into a 20mph zone.
>>
>> If that's Netherhall, at chucking out time there are a lot of kids on the
>> pavement, milling about, cycling in the road, etc, which extends a long way
>> past the school gates.
>>
>> I don't think there's an option to put in a part time speed limit, so you
>> are still affected by the 20mph at 3am when there are no kids hanging about.
>
> There isn’t an option to have a part time 20 mph when lights are flashing?
> They’re fairly popular in Scotland and there were a number in Edinburgh
> before the blanket-ish 20 mph was introduced.
>
> Sam
>

To me, one of the worst things about 20mph zones is their effect on bus
services. Many bus services are already too slow and unattractive to get
people out of cars. Making them even slower can only be bad news. Worse,
20mph zones are often accompanied by public menaces such as road humps,
raised junctions , chicanes, etc, which cause further delays -
especially if following a car that slows to walking pace over every
single hump.

This increases fuel consumption - and pollution - as vehicles need to
accelerate after every hump. It also increases bus operating costs, as
buses are often able to do fewer trips per hour and use more fuel -
which will tempt bus operators to reduce (or withdraw) their bus services.

On 16/01/2024 18:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Was there an increase in KSI (killed or seriously injured) accidents, or
> just in less serious ones/

From what I remember, it was proper KSI rather just minor bumps with no
injuries.

On 16/01/2024 19:13, Bevan Price wrote:
> To me, one of the worst things about 20mph zones is their effect on bus
> services. Many bus services are already too slow and unattractive to get
> people out of cars. Making them even slower can only be bad news. Worse,
> 20mph zones are often accompanied by public menaces such as road humps,
> raised junctions , chicanes, etc, which cause further delays -
> especially if following a car that slows to walking pace over every
> single hump.
>
> This increases fuel consumption - and pollution - as vehicles need to
> accelerate after every hump. It also increases bus operating costs, as
> buses are often able to do fewer trips per hour and use more fuel -
> which will tempt bus operators to reduce (or withdraw) their bus services.

I used to go past the local High School several times every day. They
have never had any 'Lollipop Ladies' there.

The thing that I noticed after there was the 20 mph limit there was that
the kids would get bored waiting and start running across between car.

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 16/01/2024 18:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Was there an increase in KSI (killed or seriously injured) accidents, or
>> just in less serious ones/
>
>
> From what I remember, it was proper KSI rather just minor bumps with no
> injuries.

That’s interesting. Do you have a reference or some description you could
use to look for one?

Sam

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On 16/01/2024 17:55, Theo wrote:
>> And also in the suburbs. There's a road in Cambridge with a school
>> halfway along it, which I think most people would agree is a suitable
>> place for a reduced speed, but they have now incorporated the*entire*
>> road into a 20mph zone.
> If that's Netherhall, at chucking out time there are a lot of kids on the
> pavement, milling about, cycling in the road, etc, which extends a long way
> past the school gates.
>
> I don't think there's an option to put in a part time speed limit, so you
> are still affected by the 20mph at 3am when there are no kids hanging about.

There are places where there is a part time speed limit by schools. One
in Thornbury (South Gloucs) comes to mind.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 22:01:39 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 16/01/2024 17:55, Theo wrote:
>>> And also in the suburbs. There's a road in Cambridge with a school
>>> halfway along it, which I think most people would agree is a suitable
>>> place for a reduced speed, but they have now incorporated the*entire*
>>> road into a 20mph zone.
>> If that's Netherhall, at chucking out time there are a lot of kids on the
>> pavement, milling about, cycling in the road, etc, which extends a long way
>> past the school gates.
>>
>> I don't think there's an option to put in a part time speed limit, so you
>> are still affected by the 20mph at 3am when there are no kids hanging about.
>
>There are places where there is a part time speed limit by schools. One
>in Thornbury (South Gloucs) comes to mind.

They're advisory, but presented in such a way as to make people think
they're compulsory. Given that traffic is usually fairly heavy at that time
of day, the lack of enforceability doesn't really matter because if most, or
even only some, drivers obey them then all those following them have little
choice but to do so as well.

See, for example:

https://democracy.sheffield.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.aspx?ID=3443
https://www.trafficchoices.co.uk/somerset/traffic-schemes/20mph-when-lights-show.shtml

Variable speed limits are possible, but (in England and Wales) always
require specific legislation and are therefore beyond the power of a highway
authority to impose via a normal TRO. They are, therefore, almost
exclusively used only on motorways and other high capacity trunk routes.

Scotland, on the other hand, does have legislation permitting variable speed
limits near schools which can be imposed by the highway authority.

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Variable_Speed_Limit

Mark

On 16/01/2024 22:01, Graeme Wall wrote:
> here are places where there is a part time speed limit by schools. One
> in Thornbury (South Gloucs) comes to mind.

I am sure there are lots of school 20 mph limits that only active partime.

The usual problem is that it seems to be beyond the ability of schools /
council / road authority to turn them off during the school holidays.

There was one on the A82 in Tarbet that operated 24/7 for many years.

On 16/01/2024 20:43, Sam Wilson wrote:
> That’s interesting. Do you have a reference or some description you could
> use to look for one?

Sorry no references, it was some years ago.

Portsmouth rings a bell because it was one of the first places to use 20
mph limits in England.

At least the people behind the 'Speed Camera Partnerships' are often
amongst the first to be caught.

In message <Mkc*fdBAz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 17:55:34 on Tue,
16 Jan 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uo5duv$1bng3$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:28 on Tue, 16 Jan
>> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>
>> And also in the suburbs. There's a road in Cambridge with a school
>> halfway along it, which I think most people would agree is a suitable
>> place for a reduced speed, but they have now incorporated the *entire*
>> road into a 20mph zone.
>
>If that's Netherhall, at chucking out time there are a lot of kids on the
>pavement, milling about, cycling in the road, etc, which extends a long way
>past the school gates.

For about half an hour, 190/365 days a year. And I bet the school
doesn't insist those children get a cycling proficiency test.

>I don't think there's an option to put in a part time speed limit,

There's an option for an optional speed limit (the flashing dual lights
on the approaches to a school).

>so you
>are still affected by the 20mph at 3am when there are no kids hanging about.
>
>> >I would like to see some proper figures on the effect of these lower
>> >limit, they obviously increase pollution because vehicles run more
>> >efficiently at higher speeds.
>>
>> And like my example above I tend to take a longer route around the 20mph
>> zone in question, because driving at 20mph on an empty road on a Sunday
>> morning does my head in.
>
>It's annoying that my cruise control doesn't work below 30mph, because
>engaging it at 20mph in such zones (when empty) would be ideal. My hybrid
>would be on electric at that speed so would make less pollution that way.
>
>> >But when it first became fashionable some years ago, there was an
>> >increase in accidents in areas with 20 mph limits.
>>
>> I think it still has, because again using Cambridge as an example,
>> and the roads near the station, people treat them like a fully
>> pedestrianised area and wander all over them without looking (apart
>> from "at their phone", obviously).
>
>For that, probably best to give pedestrians priority. They have it de
>facto anyway.

Thoughtful drivers already do, but there are sufficient numbers of
impatient ones that overall I think the result is more collisions. So
what exactly is the objective here?
--
Roland Perry

Am 16.01.2024 um 20:13 schrieb Bevan Price:
> On 16/01/2024 18:18, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <uo5duv$1bng3$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:28 on Tue, 16 Jan
>>>> 2024, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>>>
>>>> And also in the suburbs. There's a road in Cambridge with a school
>>>> halfway along it, which I think most people would agree is a suitable
>>>> place for a reduced speed, but they have now incorporated the *entire*
>>>> road into a 20mph zone.
>>>
>>> If that's Netherhall, at chucking out time there are a lot of kids on
>>> the
>>> pavement, milling about, cycling in the road, etc, which extends a
>>> long way
>>> past the school gates.
>>>
>>> I don't think there's an option to put in a part time speed limit, so
>>> you
>>> are still affected by the 20mph at 3am when there are no kids hanging
>>> about.
>>
>> There isn’t an option to have a part time 20 mph when lights are
>> flashing?
>> They’re fairly popular in Scotland and there were a number in Edinburgh
>> before the blanket-ish 20 mph was introduced.
>
> To me, one of the worst things about 20mph zones is their effect on bus
> services. Many bus services are already too slow and unattractive to get
> people out of cars. Making them even slower can only be bad news.

With the typical acceleration of a bus you don't reach 30 before the
next roundabout or bus stop anyways ;-)
So the bus loses significantly less time than a car when a 20 mph zone
(without bumps) is imposed.

It only makes difference if you compare a bus going through town with a
car going round the bypass at 40+ mph.

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:41:15 +0100
Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>Am 16.01.2024 um 20:13 schrieb Bevan Price:
>> To me, one of the worst things about 20mph zones is their effect on bus
>> services. Many bus services are already too slow and unattractive to get
>> people out of cars. Making them even slower can only be bad news.
>
>With the typical acceleration of a bus you don't reach 30 before the
>next roundabout or bus stop anyways ;-)
>So the bus loses significantly less time than a car when a 20 mph zone
>(without bumps) is imposed.

A lot of the 20mph zones in London have those half-bumps which are wide
enough for a bus to straddle without going over them but not most cars.
The problem with them is that they wear car tyres out on the inside edges
incredibly fast unless you put one tyre over the middle which is what I do
now. Of course that means instead of doing 20 I have to do 5-10 over the
bumps (or wreck the suspension) possibly annoying people behind.

In message <uo8ad0$1v3bi$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:33:04 on Wed, 17 Jan
2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:41:15 +0100
>Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>Am 16.01.2024 um 20:13 schrieb Bevan Price:
>>> To me, one of the worst things about 20mph zones is their effect on bus
>>> services. Many bus services are already too slow and unattractive to get
>>> people out of cars. Making them even slower can only be bad news.
>>
>>With the typical acceleration of a bus you don't reach 30 before the
>>next roundabout or bus stop anyways ;-)
>>So the bus loses significantly less time than a car when a 20 mph zone
>>(without bumps) is imposed.
>
>A lot of the 20mph zones in London have those half-bumps which are wide
>enough for a bus to straddle without going over them but not most cars.
>The problem with them is that they wear car tyres out on the inside edges
>incredibly fast unless you put one tyre over the middle which is what I do
>now. Of course that means instead of doing 20 I have to do 5-10 over the
>bumps (or wreck the suspension) possibly annoying people behind.

Those pillows are one reason I have a Range Rover, which can straddle
them.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uo8ad0$1v3bi$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:33:04 on Wed, 17 Jan
> 2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:41:15 +0100
>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>> Am 16.01.2024 um 20:13 schrieb Bevan Price:
>>>> To me, one of the worst things about 20mph zones is their effect on bus
>>>> services. Many bus services are already too slow and unattractive to get
>>>> people out of cars. Making them even slower can only be bad news.
>>>
>>> With the typical acceleration of a bus you don't reach 30 before the
>>> next roundabout or bus stop anyways ;-)
>>> So the bus loses significantly less time than a car when a 20 mph zone
>>> (without bumps) is imposed.
>>
>> A lot of the 20mph zones in London have those half-bumps which are wide
>> enough for a bus to straddle without going over them but not most cars.
>> The problem with them is that they wear car tyres out on the inside edges
>> incredibly fast unless you put one tyre over the middle which is what I do
>> now. Of course that means instead of doing 20 I have to do 5-10 over the
>> bumps (or wreck the suspension) possibly annoying people behind.
>
> Those pillows are one reason I have a Range Rover, which can straddle
> them.

My Skoda Octavia effectively straddles the ones around here. The Citroen
Xsara Picasso didn’t.

Sam

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On 17/01/2024 10:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:41:15 +0100
> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> Am 16.01.2024 um 20:13 schrieb Bevan Price:
>>> To me, one of the worst things about 20mph zones is their effect on bus
>>> services. Many bus services are already too slow and unattractive to get
>>> people out of cars. Making them even slower can only be bad news.
>>
>> With the typical acceleration of a bus you don't reach 30 before the
>> next roundabout or bus stop anyways ;-)
>> So the bus loses significantly less time than a car when a 20 mph zone
>> (without bumps) is imposed.
>
> A lot of the 20mph zones in London have those half-bumps which are wide
> enough for a bus to straddle without going over them but not most cars.
> The problem with them is that they wear car tyres out on the inside edges
> incredibly fast unless you put one tyre over the middle which is what I do
> now. Of course that means instead of doing 20 I have to do 5-10 over the
> bumps (or wreck the suspension) possibly annoying people behind.
>

The other problem is that a lot of people park their cars adjacent to
those half-bumps, making it impossible for buses to straddle them.

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 11:28:49 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <uo8ad0$1v3bi$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:33:04 on Wed, 17 Jan
>2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:41:15 +0100
>>Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>Am 16.01.2024 um 20:13 schrieb Bevan Price:
>>>> To me, one of the worst things about 20mph zones is their effect on bus
>>>> services. Many bus services are already too slow and unattractive to get
>>>> people out of cars. Making them even slower can only be bad news.
>>>
>>>With the typical acceleration of a bus you don't reach 30 before the
>>>next roundabout or bus stop anyways ;-)
>>>So the bus loses significantly less time than a car when a 20 mph zone
>>>(without bumps) is imposed.
>>
>>A lot of the 20mph zones in London have those half-bumps which are wide
>>enough for a bus to straddle without going over them but not most cars.
>>The problem with them is that they wear car tyres out on the inside edges
>>incredibly fast unless you put one tyre over the middle which is what I do
>>now. Of course that means instead of doing 20 I have to do 5-10 over the
>>bumps (or wreck the suspension) possibly annoying people behind.
>
>Those pillows are one reason I have a Range Rover, which can straddle
>them.

With these damn things and all the potholes around these days an urban SUV is
beginning to make more sense to me and I suspect I'm not alone. And isn't it
interesting how councils seem to have a magic money tree when it comes to
installing traffic calming but when its fixing potholes its a case of deep
pockets, short arms.

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 12:12:54 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uo8ad0$1v3bi$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:33:04 on Wed, 17 Jan
>> 2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:41:15 +0100
>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>> Am 16.01.2024 um 20:13 schrieb Bevan Price:
>>>>> To me, one of the worst things about 20mph zones is their effect on bus
>>>>> services. Many bus services are already too slow and unattractive to get
>>>>> people out of cars. Making them even slower can only be bad news.
>>>>
>>>> With the typical acceleration of a bus you don't reach 30 before the
>>>> next roundabout or bus stop anyways ;-)
>>>> So the bus loses significantly less time than a car when a 20 mph zone
>>>> (without bumps) is imposed.
>>>
>>> A lot of the 20mph zones in London have those half-bumps which are wide
>>> enough for a bus to straddle without going over them but not most cars.
>>> The problem with them is that they wear car tyres out on the inside edges
>>> incredibly fast unless you put one tyre over the middle which is what I do
>>> now. Of course that means instead of doing 20 I have to do 5-10 over the
>>> bumps (or wreck the suspension) possibly annoying people behind.
>>
>> Those pillows are one reason I have a Range Rover, which can straddle
>> them.
>
>My Skoda Octavia effectively straddles the ones around here. The Citroen

Are you sure about that? It might feel like it is but even only an inch of
tyre on those things can wear it down.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 11:28:49 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uo8ad0$1v3bi$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:33:04 on Wed, 17 Jan
>> 2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:41:15 +0100
>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>> Am 16.01.2024 um 20:13 schrieb Bevan Price:
>>>>> To me, one of the worst things about 20mph zones is their effect on bus
>>>>> services. Many bus services are already too slow and unattractive to get
>>>>> people out of cars. Making them even slower can only be bad news.
>>>>
>>>> With the typical acceleration of a bus you don't reach 30 before the
>>>> next roundabout or bus stop anyways ;-)
>>>> So the bus loses significantly less time than a car when a 20 mph zone
>>>> (without bumps) is imposed.
>>>
>>> A lot of the 20mph zones in London have those half-bumps which are wide
>>> enough for a bus to straddle without going over them but not most cars.
>>> The problem with them is that they wear car tyres out on the inside edges
>>> incredibly fast unless you put one tyre over the middle which is what I do
>>> now. Of course that means instead of doing 20 I have to do 5-10 over the
>>> bumps (or wreck the suspension) possibly annoying people behind.
>>
>> Those pillows are one reason I have a Range Rover, which can straddle
>> them.
>
> With these damn things and all the potholes around these days an urban SUV is
> beginning to make more sense to me and I suspect I'm not alone. And isn't it
> interesting how councils seem to have a magic money tree when it comes to
> installing traffic calming but when its fixing potholes its a case of deep
> pockets, short arms.

Not exactly. The traffic calming measures around schools here were funded
by some arm of central government - spend the money for that purpose or
lose it. The police insisted that any measures be self-policing, so it had
to be road humps and extended pavements rather than anything involving
people watching for infringements. It wasn’t the council’s magic money
tree.

Sam

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<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 12:12:54 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uo8ad0$1v3bi$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:33:04 on Wed, 17 Jan
>>> 2024, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:41:15 +0100
>>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>> Am 16.01.2024 um 20:13 schrieb Bevan Price:
>>>>>> To me, one of the worst things about 20mph zones is their effect on bus
>>>>>> services. Many bus services are already too slow and unattractive to get
>>>>>> people out of cars. Making them even slower can only be bad news.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the typical acceleration of a bus you don't reach 30 before the
>>>>> next roundabout or bus stop anyways ;-)
>>>>> So the bus loses significantly less time than a car when a 20 mph zone
>>>>> (without bumps) is imposed.
>>>>
>>>> A lot of the 20mph zones in London have those half-bumps which are wide
>>>> enough for a bus to straddle without going over them but not most cars.
>>>> The problem with them is that they wear car tyres out on the inside edges
>>>> incredibly fast unless you put one tyre over the middle which is what I do
>>>> now. Of course that means instead of doing 20 I have to do 5-10 over the
>>>> bumps (or wreck the suspension) possibly annoying people behind.
>>>
>>> Those pillows are one reason I have a Range Rover, which can straddle
>>> them.
>>
>> My Skoda Octavia effectively straddles the ones around here. The Citroen
>
> Are you sure about that? It might feel like it is but even only an inch of
> tyre on those things can wear it down.

I haven’t checked tyre wear; I’m judging by the height of the bounce when
you drive over them. The Skoda is approximately 250 mm wider than the
Citroen and, from the driving position, it’s easy to judge that the offside
front wheel is quite a lot further to the right than in the older car.

Sam

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