News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?

On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?

Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a whole
'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you would do
in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator. This
video helps to explain it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-d3EVcunnE

One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open - ie. in
the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the EV is
parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC won't
be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>
> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a whole
> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you would do
> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.

It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146

"The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
fire ... it spread fairly quickly."

Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.

> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open - ie. in
> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the EV is
> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC won't
> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.

Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't
there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
to a car interior.

It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.

My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
removed it to try and save the car.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 17/9/2023 8:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>>
>> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
>> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
>> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a whole
>> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you would do
>> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.
>
> It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
> to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:
>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146
>
> "The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
> on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
> fire ... it spread fairly quickly."
>
> Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
> to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.
>
>> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open - ie. in
>> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
>> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
>> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the EV is
>> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC won't
>> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
>> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
>> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
>> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.
>
> Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't
> there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
> laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
> batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
> to a car interior.
>
> It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
> presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
> battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.
>
> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
> removed it to try and save the car.
>

I recently spoke to a professional fireman about EV fires, he said that
the biggest problem was the fumes, "inhaling the fumes will be a life
changing event".
He also said that if you see smoke coming from an EV you have approx
30secs to get anyone out of the car, after that its generally too late
so just run, if the flames don't kill the occupants the fumes will,
these days they automatically wear breathing equipment if they attend
any fire especially vehicles.

--
Daryl

Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> wrote:
> On 17/9/2023 8:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>> removed it to try and save the car.
>
> I recently spoke to a professional fireman about EV fires, he said that
> the biggest problem was the fumes, "inhaling the fumes will be a life
> changing event".

Yes I've heard the same, hence "riskily". The fumes are full of
heavy metals apparantly and sink down, so getting down near the
ground to unbolt the battery is the last thing you'd want to do.
But if it was getting going slowly and there was a strong breeze,
perhaps someone could be lucky and get away with it.

> He also said that if you see smoke coming from an EV you have approx
> 30secs to get anyone out of the car, after that its generally too late
> so just run, if the flames don't kill the occupants the fumes will,
> these days they automatically wear breathing equipment if they attend
> any fire especially vehicles.

Very nasty. Apparantly in rare cases the hydrogen that's also
released can build up and ignite in a sudden fireball as well.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 17/09/2023 6:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>>
>> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
>> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
>> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a whole
>> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you would do
>> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.
>
> It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
> to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:
>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146
>
> "The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
> on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
> fire ... it spread fairly quickly."
>
> Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
> to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.
>

All they can do is contain the fire as best as possible and keep
surroundings cool to localise it and help prevent it from spreading.

It looks like they were stealing the battery, probably shorted something
in the process and the the rest is history.

>> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open - ie. in
>> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
>> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
>> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the EV is
>> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC won't
>> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
>> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
>> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
>> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.
>
> Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't
> there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
> laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
> batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
> to a car interior.
>

The batteries or under the car so overheating is unlikely.

> It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
> presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
> battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.
>
> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
> removed it to try and save the car.
>

Removing them isn't trivial and it's quite dangerous due to the high
voltage and amperage involved. Best guess is that they shorted something
in the process of dragging it out from under the front of the vehicle
and it either blasted a hole in the battery causing a fire or a cell
shorted and went up. Thermal runaway takes care of the rest.

--
In thread "May need to buy petrol soon" Sept 23 2021 11:15:59am
Keithr0 wrote: "He made the assertion either he proves it or he is a
proven liar."

On Sept 23 2021 3:16:29pm Keithr0 wrote:
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if it is unproven, he is lying."

On 17/09/2023 8:23 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> wrote:
>> On 17/9/2023 8:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>>> removed it to try and save the car.
>>
>> I recently spoke to a professional fireman about EV fires, he said that
>> the biggest problem was the fumes, "inhaling the fumes will be a life
>> changing event".
>
> Yes I've heard the same, hence "riskily". The fumes are full of
> heavy metals apparantly and sink down, so getting down near the
> ground to unbolt the battery is the last thing you'd want to do.

You wouldn't get a chance to get to your tool kit let alone stand a
chance of unbolting it.

> But if it was getting going slowly and there was a strong breeze,
> perhaps someone could be lucky and get away with it.
>
>> He also said that if you see smoke coming from an EV you have approx
>> 30secs to get anyone out of the car, after that its generally too late
>> so just run, if the flames don't kill the occupants the fumes will,
>> these days they automatically wear breathing equipment if they attend
>> any fire especially vehicles.
>
> Very nasty. Apparantly in rare cases the hydrogen that's also
> released can build up and ignite in a sudden fireball as well.
>

Nothing rare about it. Hydrogen fluoride and even phosphoryl fluoride
gas releasing are serious issues.

If your EV car starts to burn, get out and run and tell people to get
well clear.

--
In thread "May need to buy petrol soon" Sept 23 2021 11:15:59am
Keithr0 wrote: "He made the assertion either he proves it or he is a
proven liar."

On Sept 23 2021 3:16:29pm Keithr0 wrote:
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if it is unproven, he is lying."

Clocky wrote:
> On 17/09/2023 6:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>>>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>>>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>>>
>>> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
>>> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
>>> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a whole
>>> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you
>>> would do
>>> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.
>>
>> It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
>> to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:
>>
>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146
>>
>>
>> "The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
>>   on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
>>   fire ... it spread fairly quickly."
>>
>> Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
>> to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.
>>
>
> All they can do is contain the fire as best as possible and keep
> surroundings cool to localise it and help prevent it from spreading.
>
> It looks like they were stealing the battery, probably shorted
> something in the process and the the rest is history.
>
>
>>> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open -
>>> ie. in
>>> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
>>> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
>>> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the EV is
>>> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC
>>> won't
>>> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
>>> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
>>> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
>>> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.
>>
>> Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't
>> there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
>> laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
>> batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
>> to a car interior.
>>
>
> The batteries or under the car so overheating is unlikely.
>
>> It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
>> presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
>> battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.
>>
>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>> removed it to try and save the car.
>>
>
> Removing them isn't trivial and it's quite dangerous due to the high
> voltage and amperage involved. Best guess is that they shorted
> something in the process of dragging it out from under the front of
> the vehicle and it either blasted a hole in the battery causing a fire
> or a cell shorted and went up. Thermal runaway takes care of the rest.
>

that's my guess also. awhile ago I posted this about Teslas ..
https://auslink.info/video/tesla1.mp4  which describes their poor
design. despite such stupid flaws, and battery issues, ppl are still
falling over themselves to buy the damn things. (must have the latest
technology to demonstrate their superior to the common man. I'm
surprised Keefy doesn't own one). no one discussed or commented however.
probably because I didn't say anything about noddy!

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

FUCK PUTIN!!
https://imgur.com/gallery/v4u4c15

Clocky wrote:
> On 17/09/2023 8:23 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> wrote:
>>> On 17/9/2023 8:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>>>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>>>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>>>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>>>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>>>> removed it to try and save the car.
>>>
>>> I recently spoke to a professional fireman about EV fires, he said that
>>> the biggest problem was the fumes, "inhaling the fumes will be a life
>>> changing event".
>>
>> Yes I've heard the same, hence "riskily". The fumes are full of
>> heavy metals apparantly and sink down, so getting down near the
>> ground to unbolt the battery is the last thing you'd want to do.
>
> You wouldn't get a chance to get to your tool kit let alone stand a
> chance of unbolting it.
>
>> But if it was getting going slowly and there was a strong breeze,
>> perhaps someone could be lucky and get away with it.
>>
>>> He also said that if you see smoke coming from an EV you have approx
>>> 30secs to get anyone out of the car, after that its generally too late
>>> so just run, if the flames don't kill the occupants the fumes will,
>>> these days they automatically wear breathing equipment if they attend
>>> any fire especially vehicles.
>>
>> Very nasty. Apparantly in rare cases the hydrogen that's also
>> released can build up and ignite in a sudden fireball as well.
>>
>
> Nothing rare about it. Hydrogen fluoride and even phosphoryl fluoride
> gas releasing are serious issues.
>
> If your EV car starts to burn, get out and run and tell people to get
> well clear.
>

looks like EV fires will be a significant issue in coming days. I wonder
how EV owners will react if ppl being incinerated becomes prevalent?

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

FUCK PUTIN!!
https://imgur.com/gallery/v4u4c15

On 17/09/2023 12:35 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:

> must have the latest
> technology to demonstrate their superior to the common man. I'm
> surprised Keefy doesn't own one

Oh dear felix fucks up again, after all that has been said about it, he
still doesn't realise that I drive a 32 year old car. Go and have a cup
of tea and a good lie down and take the strain off your brain.

On 17/9/2023 8:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>>
>> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
>> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
>> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a whole
>> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you would do
>> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.
>
> It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
> to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:
>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146

Yeah, I didn't realise that was the battery at first. That said, the
battery isolator would/should have been removed before removing the
battery anyway.
>
> "The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
> on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
> fire ... it spread fairly quickly."
>
> Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
> to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.
>
>> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open - ie. in
>> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
>> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
>> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the EV is
>> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC won't
>> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
>> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
>> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
>> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.
>
> Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't

If the car has just come in off the road, yes. Charging/discharging
would generate battery heat - ambient would make it worse. If the
battery id of poor quality - definitely a risk.

> there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
> laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
> batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
> to a car interior.

I've had L-ion batteries *expand*. They were, I must admit, cheapies.
>
> It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
> presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
> battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.
>
> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
> removed it to try and save the car.
>
The more recent article I saw noted that the battery had been *damaged*
whilst in the car, likely by the car running over something, and that's
why it was removed. Now that can create an issue all by itself.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 17/09/2023 10:44 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> Clocky wrote:
>> On 17/09/2023 8:23 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> wrote:
>>>> On 17/9/2023 8:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>>>>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>>>>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>>>>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>>>>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>>>>> removed it to try and save the car.
>>>>
>>>> I recently spoke to a professional fireman about EV fires, he said that
>>>> the biggest problem was the fumes, "inhaling the fumes will be a life
>>>> changing event".
>>>
>>> Yes I've heard the same, hence "riskily". The fumes are full of
>>> heavy metals apparantly and sink down, so getting down near the
>>> ground to unbolt the battery is the last thing you'd want to do.
>>
>> You wouldn't get a chance to get to your tool kit let alone stand a
>> chance of unbolting it.
>>
>>> But if it was getting going slowly and there was a strong breeze,
>>> perhaps someone could be lucky and get away with it.
>>>
>>>> He also said that if you see smoke coming from an EV you have approx
>>>> 30secs to get anyone out of the car, after that its generally too late
>>>> so just run, if the flames don't kill the occupants the fumes will,
>>>> these days they automatically wear breathing equipment if they attend
>>>> any fire especially vehicles.
>>>
>>> Very nasty. Apparantly in rare cases the hydrogen that's also
>>> released can build up and ignite in a sudden fireball as well.
>>>
>>
>> Nothing rare about it. Hydrogen fluoride and even phosphoryl fluoride
>> gas releasing are serious issues.
>>
>> If your EV car starts to burn, get out and run and tell people to get
>> well clear.
>>
>
> looks like EV fires will be a significant issue in coming days. I wonder
> how EV owners will react if ppl being incinerated becomes prevalent?
>

It would be rather ironic that any perceived zero emissions from an EV
(a fallacy) is erased exponentially by every single EV fire :-)

--
In thread "May need to buy petrol soon" Sept 23 2021 11:15:59am
Keithr0 wrote: "He made the assertion either he proves it or he is a
proven liar."

On Sept 23 2021 3:16:29pm Keithr0 wrote:
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if it is unproven, he is lying."

On 17/09/2023 11:48 am, Clocky wrote:
> On 17/09/2023 6:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>>>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>>>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>>>
>>> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
>>> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
>>> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a whole
>>> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you would do
>>> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.
>>
>> It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
>> to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:
>>
>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146
>>
>> "The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
>>   on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
>>   fire ... it spread fairly quickly."
>>
>> Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
>> to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.
>>
>
> All they can do is contain the fire as best as possible and keep
> surroundings cool to localise it and help prevent it from spreading.
>
> It looks like they were stealing the battery, probably shorted something
> in the process and the the rest is history.
>
>
>>> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open - ie. in
>>> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
>>> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
>>> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the EV is
>>> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC won't
>>> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
>>> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
>>> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
>>> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.
>>
>> Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't
>> there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
>> laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
>> batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
>> to a car interior.
>>
>
> The batteries or under the car so overheating is unlikely.
>
>> It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
>> presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
>> battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.
>>
>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>> removed it to try and save the car.
>>
>
> Removing them isn't trivial and it's quite dangerous due to the high
> voltage and amperage involved. Best guess is that they shorted something
> in the process of dragging it out from under the front of the vehicle
> and it either blasted a hole in the battery causing a fire or a cell
> shorted and went up. Thermal runaway takes care of the rest.
>
There seems to be a body of opinion here in Queensland that mechanics
working on EVs will be required to have a sparky licence.

On Sun, 17 Sep 2023 14:42:11 +1000, Keithr0 wrote:

> On 17/09/2023 12:35 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>
>> must have the latest technology to demonstrate their superior to the
>> common man. I'm surprised Keefy doesn't own one
>
> Oh dear felix fucks up again, after all that has been said about it, he
> still doesn't realise that I drive a 32 year old car. Go and have a cup
> of tea and a good lie down and take the strain off your brain.

Speaking of "lying" and 'fucking up'... Three days ago;

KR: So you agree that alvey is A proven *lying* troll. Stating the obvious
at last.

Clocky: Where is your proof he's lying or a troll Sliemey?

KR: Old misery guts pipes up from the cheap seats with the usual primary
school greeting. Still smarting over my refusal to follow your orders eh?
Learn some comprehension,

AS: As they say in the classics... "You don't get to be the judge of
comprehension".

KR: it was your mate xeno that said that.

AS: Ahhh. All the speed and footwork of a drunken sloth on the forest
floor. No Richo. It is indisputable that *you* have defamed. Now provide
proof or retract.

So this is what being 'man enough to admit you're wrong' looks like hey
Richardson. When put on the spot you run away for a few days, doubtless
doing 'something far more interlecktual', and then pop back in hoping that
that your defamatory lies have been forgotten. What a man you aren't.

On 17/9/2023 5:24 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
> On 17/09/2023 11:48 am, Clocky wrote:
>> On 17/09/2023 6:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>>>>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>>>>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>>>>
>>>> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
>>>> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
>>>> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a whole
>>>> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you
>>>> would do
>>>> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.
>>>
>>> It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
>>> to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:
>>>
>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146
>>>
>>> "The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
>>>   on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
>>>   fire ... it spread fairly quickly."
>>>
>>> Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
>>> to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.
>>>
>>
>> All they can do is contain the fire as best as possible and keep
>> surroundings cool to localise it and help prevent it from spreading.
>>
>> It looks like they were stealing the battery, probably shorted
>> something in the process and the the rest is history.
>>
>>
>>>> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open -
>>>> ie. in
>>>> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
>>>> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
>>>> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the EV is
>>>> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC
>>>> won't
>>>> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
>>>> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
>>>> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
>>>> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.
>>>
>>> Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't
>>> there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
>>> laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
>>> batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
>>> to a car interior.
>>>
>>
>> The batteries or under the car so overheating is unlikely.
>>
>>> It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
>>> presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
>>> battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.
>>>
>>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>>> removed it to try and save the car.
>>>
>>
>> Removing them isn't trivial and it's quite dangerous due to the high
>> voltage and amperage involved. Best guess is that they shorted
>> something in the process of dragging it out from under the front of
>> the vehicle and it either blasted a hole in the battery causing a fire
>> or a cell shorted and went up. Thermal runaway takes care of the rest.
>>
> There seems to be a body of opinion here in Queensland that mechanics
> working on EVs will be required to have a sparky licence.

Not heard that, I have seen several courses advertised, a basic course
which is mainly on just how to disconnect, reconnect high voltage
batteries so the vehicle is safe to work and a full on EV repair and
maintenance course, both courses were for qualified mechanics.
The first basic course was only a day or two, the later was a lot longer.
For example:
https://skillbuild.edu.au/product-category/electric-vehicles/
There are numerous courses available all over the country.
Friends recently took their Hyundai PHEV for its first service, they had
to take it a dealer 20km away because the local dealer wasn't yet
qualified to work on EV's.

--
Daryl

On 17/09/2023 4:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 17/9/2023 5:24 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>> On 17/09/2023 11:48 am, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 17/09/2023 6:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>>> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>>>>>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>>>>>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>>>>>
>>>>> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
>>>>> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
>>>>> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a
>>>>> whole
>>>>> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you
>>>>> would do
>>>>> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
>>>> to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
>>>>   on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
>>>>   fire ... it spread fairly quickly."
>>>>
>>>> Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
>>>> to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.
>>>>
>>>
>>> All they can do is contain the fire as best as possible and keep
>>> surroundings cool to localise it and help prevent it from spreading.
>>>
>>> It looks like they were stealing the battery, probably shorted
>>> something in the process and the the rest is history.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open -
>>>>> ie. in
>>>>> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
>>>>> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
>>>>> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the
>>>>> EV is
>>>>> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC
>>>>> won't
>>>>> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
>>>>> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
>>>>> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
>>>>> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.
>>>>
>>>> Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't
>>>> there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
>>>> laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
>>>> batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
>>>> to a car interior.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The batteries or under the car so overheating is unlikely.
>>>
>>>> It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
>>>> presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
>>>> battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.
>>>>
>>>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>>>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>>>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>>>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>>>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>>>> removed it to try and save the car.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Removing them isn't trivial and it's quite dangerous due to the high
>>> voltage and amperage involved. Best guess is that they shorted
>>> something in the process of dragging it out from under the front of
>>> the vehicle and it either blasted a hole in the battery causing a
>>> fire or a cell shorted and went up. Thermal runaway takes care of the
>>> rest.
>>>
>> There seems to be a body of opinion here in Queensland that mechanics
>> working on EVs will be required to have a sparky licence.
>
>
> Not heard that, I have seen several courses advertised, a basic course
> which is mainly on just how to disconnect, reconnect high voltage
> batteries so the vehicle is safe to work and a full on EV repair and
> maintenance course, both courses were for qualified mechanics.

That's the fraud out then :-)

--
In thread "May need to buy petrol soon" Sept 23 2021 11:15:59am
Keithr0 wrote: "He made the assertion either he proves it or he is a
proven liar."

On Sept 23 2021 3:16:29pm Keithr0 wrote:
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if it is unproven, he is lying."

On 17/9/2023 5:24 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
> On 17/09/2023 11:48 am, Clocky wrote:
>> On 17/09/2023 6:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>>>>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>>>>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>>>>
>>>> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
>>>> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
>>>> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a whole
>>>> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you
>>>> would do
>>>> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.
>>>
>>> It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
>>> to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:
>>>
>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146
>>>
>>> "The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
>>>   on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
>>>   fire ... it spread fairly quickly."
>>>
>>> Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
>>> to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.
>>>
>>
>> All they can do is contain the fire as best as possible and keep
>> surroundings cool to localise it and help prevent it from spreading.
>>
>> It looks like they were stealing the battery, probably shorted
>> something in the process and the the rest is history.
>>
>>
>>>> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open -
>>>> ie. in
>>>> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
>>>> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
>>>> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the EV is
>>>> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC
>>>> won't
>>>> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
>>>> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
>>>> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
>>>> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.
>>>
>>> Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't
>>> there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
>>> laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
>>> batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
>>> to a car interior.
>>>
>>
>> The batteries or under the car so overheating is unlikely.
>>
>>> It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
>>> presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
>>> battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.
>>>
>>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>>> removed it to try and save the car.
>>>
>>
>> Removing them isn't trivial and it's quite dangerous due to the high
>> voltage and amperage involved. Best guess is that they shorted
>> something in the process of dragging it out from under the front of
>> the vehicle and it either blasted a hole in the battery causing a fire
>> or a cell shorted and went up. Thermal runaway takes care of the rest.
>>
> There seems to be a body of opinion here in Queensland that mechanics
> working on EVs will be required to have a sparky licence.

That would be way overkill. You do know what is involved in getting a
sparky's licence, yes? Electrical apprenticeship plus A grade licence.
What the most likely outcome will be is a supplemental licence as
currently exists Australia wide for mechanics working on AC systems.

That brings an interesting aspect into the equation. Take HVAC
tradesmen, as an example - they are required, along with industrial HVAC
qualifications (trade papers), to have two (2) supplemental licences,
one for industrial electrical and one for industrial plumbing. The
electrical supplement covers such aspects as connecting and
disconnecting motors and tinkering about in switchboards. The plumbing
covers them for any work they need to do involving *plumbing*, both low
pressure and high, as well as working with coolants and refridgerants.

Back to EVs, if you're going to be working with battery packs that can
deliver 200-400 Volts DC with huge levels of current, you're going to
require a non-trivial level of electrical training and certification.
Then there's AC. A lot of BEVs have two AC systems, one for cabin
climate control and the other for *battery temperature management*. Yes,
the battery pack may need cooling but it may also need heating in
extremely cold climates. So a motor mechanic working on EVs will likely
need HVDC certification as well as some level of HVAC certification.
Interesting times ahead.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 17/9/2023 6:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 17/9/2023 5:24 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>> On 17/09/2023 11:48 am, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 17/09/2023 6:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>>> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>>>>>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>>>>>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>>>>>
>>>>> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
>>>>> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
>>>>> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a
>>>>> whole
>>>>> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you
>>>>> would do
>>>>> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
>>>> to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146
>>>>
>>>> "The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
>>>>   on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
>>>>   fire ... it spread fairly quickly."
>>>>
>>>> Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
>>>> to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.
>>>>
>>>
>>> All they can do is contain the fire as best as possible and keep
>>> surroundings cool to localise it and help prevent it from spreading.
>>>
>>> It looks like they were stealing the battery, probably shorted
>>> something in the process and the the rest is history.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open -
>>>>> ie. in
>>>>> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
>>>>> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
>>>>> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the
>>>>> EV is
>>>>> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC
>>>>> won't
>>>>> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
>>>>> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
>>>>> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
>>>>> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.
>>>>
>>>> Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't
>>>> there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
>>>> laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
>>>> batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
>>>> to a car interior.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The batteries or under the car so overheating is unlikely.
>>>
>>>> It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
>>>> presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
>>>> battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.
>>>>
>>>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>>>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>>>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>>>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>>>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>>>> removed it to try and save the car.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Removing them isn't trivial and it's quite dangerous due to the high
>>> voltage and amperage involved. Best guess is that they shorted
>>> something in the process of dragging it out from under the front of
>>> the vehicle and it either blasted a hole in the battery causing a
>>> fire or a cell shorted and went up. Thermal runaway takes care of the
>>> rest.
>>>
>> There seems to be a body of opinion here in Queensland that mechanics
>> working on EVs will be required to have a sparky licence.
>
>
> Not heard that, I have seen several courses advertised, a basic course

Yep, a friend here has done the full EV course and is now qualified to
work on hybrids and BEVs.

> which is mainly on just how to disconnect, reconnect high voltage
> batteries so the vehicle is safe to work and a full on EV repair and
> maintenance course, both courses were for qualified mechanics.

Of course, same as for the AC certification. Darren's out in the cold!

> The first basic course was only a day or two, the later was a lot longer.
> For example:
> https://skillbuild.edu.au/product-category/electric-vehicles/
> There are numerous courses available all over the country.
> Friends recently took their Hyundai PHEV for its first service, they had
> to take it a dealer 20km away because the local dealer wasn't yet
> qualified to work on EV's.
>

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 17/09/2023 3:24 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
> On 17/09/2023 11:48 am, Clocky wrote:
>> On 17/09/2023 6:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>>>>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>>>>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>>>>
>>>> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
>>>> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
>>>> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a whole
>>>> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you
>>>> would do
>>>> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.
>>>
>>> It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
>>> to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:
>>>
>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146
>>>
>>>
>>> "The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
>>>   on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
>>>   fire ... it spread fairly quickly."
>>>
>>> Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
>>> to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.
>>>
>>
>> All they can do is contain the fire as best as possible and keep
>> surroundings cool to localise it and help prevent it from spreading.
>>
>> It looks like they were stealing the battery, probably shorted
>> something in the process and the the rest is history.
>>
>>
>>>> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open -
>>>> ie. in
>>>> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
>>>> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
>>>> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the EV is
>>>> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC
>>>> won't
>>>> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
>>>> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
>>>> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
>>>> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.
>>>
>>> Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't
>>> there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
>>> laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
>>> batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
>>> to a car interior.
>>>
>>
>> The batteries or under the car so overheating is unlikely.
>>
>>> It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
>>> presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
>>> battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.
>>>
>>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>>> removed it to try and save the car.
>>>
>>
>> Removing them isn't trivial and it's quite dangerous due to the high
>> voltage and amperage involved. Best guess is that they shorted
>> something in the process of dragging it out from under the front of
>> the vehicle and it either blasted a hole in the battery causing a fire
>> or a cell shorted and went up. Thermal runaway takes care of the rest.
>>
> There seems to be a body of opinion here in Queensland that mechanics
> working on EVs will be required to have a sparky licence.

I don't know what Queensland is doing (probably catching up to everyone
else as per usual) but no opining is required - the rest of the country
is already running 5 day training courses for *qualified* (IOW not for
Noddies) automotive mechanics and electricians to obtain nationally
recognised qualifications allowing them to service and repair EV and
hybrid vehicles which includes servicing, repairing and repowering
battery systems.

There is also a more basic disconnect/reconnect course/qualification
which is a 10 hour online course (in WA also requires proof of
competency 3-4 hour practical assessment).

--
In thread "May need to buy petrol soon" Sept 23 2021 11:15:59am
Keithr0 wrote: "He made the assertion either he proves it or he is a
proven liar."

On Sept 23 2021 3:16:29pm Keithr0 wrote:
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if it is unproven, he is lying."

On 17/09/2023 4:52 pm, Xeno wrote:
> On 17/9/2023 5:24 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>> On 17/09/2023 11:48 am, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 17/09/2023 6:35 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>>> On 13/9/2023 2:34 pm, Ozix wrote:
>>>>>> News report said the battery was detached. So was somebody trying to
>>>>>> steal battery pack from a car in long-term parking?
>>>>>
>>>>> Could have been that the 12V battery was detached. Or disconnected and
>>>>> removed. Doubt it was being stolen. Detaching an EV battery is simply
>>>>> disconnecting the DC power from the rest of the car. Removal is a
>>>>> whole
>>>>> 'nother ball game - lots of work involved and not something you
>>>>> would do
>>>>> in a car park. Most likely someone pulled the EV battery isolator.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't look like it in the photos here. The main battery seems
>>>> to have been lowered to the ground and dragged out in front of it:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The aviation team were on the scene very quickly and able to get
>>>>   on top of this fire. Even with the close proximity they are to the
>>>>   fire ... it spread fairly quickly."
>>>>
>>>> Just shows how much damage can be done when these batteries decide
>>>> to go, even with very well equipped firefighters right nearby.
>>>>
>>>
>>> All they can do is contain the fire as best as possible and keep
>>> surroundings cool to localise it and help prevent it from spreading.
>>>
>>> It looks like they were stealing the battery, probably shorted
>>> something in the process and the the rest is history.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> One potential issue I see is that the EV was parked in the open -
>>>>> ie. in
>>>>> the heat of the sun. A lot of EV DC battery packs are *cooled* by a
>>>>> separate AC system that can run independently of the Cabin AC. This AC
>>>>> system can even run when the vehicle is parked, especially if the
>>>>> EV is
>>>>> parked out in the sun. If the main EV isolator was pulled, that AC
>>>>> won't
>>>>> be able to run. If the 12V battery was disconnected/removed, the DC
>>>>> batteries may well have become *automatically isolated* hence the EV
>>>>> battery AC cooling system may not run in the event of DC batteries
>>>>> overheating. It can get very nasty very quickly.
>>>>
>>>> Batteries overheating just from the heat of the sun? Then wouldn't
>>>> there be lots of car fires started by people leaving things like
>>>> laptops in their car over summer? Those are smaller Li-Ion
>>>> batteries, sure, but could still burn plenty hot enough to set fire
>>>> to a car interior.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The batteries or under the car so overheating is unlikely.
>>>
>>>> It would make more sense if the car was being charged, but
>>>> presumably it can't be when the isolator is switched or the 12V
>>>> battery removed, so then any such A/C system should work.
>>>>
>>>> My guess is that the battery had some internal short that gradually
>>>> got worse and caused thermal runaway. Possibly helped by, but not
>>>> caused by, the heat of the sun. I guess an attempted battery theft
>>>> where someone accidentally punctured a cell or shorted out it is
>>>> another possibility. Or else someone saw it smoking and riskily
>>>> removed it to try and save the car.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Removing them isn't trivial and it's quite dangerous due to the high
>>> voltage and amperage involved. Best guess is that they shorted
>>> something in the process of dragging it out from under the front of
>>> the vehicle and it either blasted a hole in the battery causing a
>>> fire or a cell shorted and went up. Thermal runaway takes care of the
>>> rest.
>>>
>> There seems to be a body of opinion here in Queensland that mechanics
>> working on EVs will be required to have a sparky licence.
>
> That would be way overkill. You do know what is involved in getting a
> sparky's licence, yes? Electrical apprenticeship plus A grade licence.
> What the most likely outcome will be is a supplemental licence as
> currently exists Australia wide for mechanics working on AC systems.
>
> That brings an interesting aspect into the equation. Take HVAC
> tradesmen, as an example - they are required, along with industrial HVAC
> qualifications (trade papers), to have two (2) supplemental licences,
> one for industrial electrical and one for industrial plumbing. The
> electrical supplement covers such aspects as connecting and
> disconnecting motors and tinkering about in switchboards. The plumbing
> covers them for any work they need to do involving *plumbing*, both low
> pressure and high, as well as working with coolants and refridgerants.
>
> Back to EVs, if you're going to be working with battery packs that can
> deliver 200-400 Volts DC with huge levels of current, you're going to
> require a non-trivial level of electrical training and certification.
> Then there's AC. A lot of BEVs have two AC systems, one for cabin
> climate control and the other for *battery temperature management*. Yes,
> the battery pack may need cooling but it may also need heating in
> extremely cold climates. So a motor mechanic working on EVs will likely
> need HVDC certification as well as some level of HVAC certification.
> Interesting times ahead.
>

It's reassuring to know that a clown claiming that fuel trim data can't
be read let alone used to diagnose vehicles won't be allowed anywhere
near an EV/hybrid vehicle just like he can't work on any vehicle under
warranty without forfeiting the new vehicle warranty.

Reality is closing in on the fraud, even in Victoria.

--
In thread "May need to buy petrol soon" Sept 23 2021 11:15:59am
Keithr0 wrote: "He made the assertion either he proves it or he is a
proven liar."

On Sept 23 2021 3:16:29pm Keithr0 wrote:
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if it is unproven, he is lying."